Do you believe in predestination ?

[martymonster]

Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;

Just lean on the traditions of men, eh?

 

[trophy33]

While God can accomplish His desires, His love for me causes Him to respect my free will decisions. I think we disagree but that's ok.

This is more an emotional argument related to current cultural American teaching of self-respect - we are all kings and queens and everything is there just for us and even God must stay away.

But its neither logical nor biblical. Its just an illusion.

 

[trophy33]

Source?

Logic, reasoning, Bible.

It sounds like you are suggesting a kind of limited free will, in which case, there is no such thing as limited free will. A will that is limited is not free. It literally makes no sense!

Are you trying to postulate you are free without any limitation, as God? Of course your freedom, including your free will, has many limitations.

 

[martymonster]

Logic, reasoning, Bible.


Are you trying to postulate you are free without any limitation, as God? Of course your freedom, including your free will, has many limitations.

No, I'm saying that there is absolutely no free will. The bible does not support the concept.

 

[trophy33]

Does not our addiction to enslaving evil not coerce our decisions? John 8:34 Jesus replied, "Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.

Matthew 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

The ability to choose does not equate to a free will if the choices are constrained in our will to always turn to evil.

I accept the absolute necessity of a free will but don't believe sinners can enjoy it until their rebirth or was Christ babbling about the enslaving power of sin?

Even if we are enslaved by own bad habits, like sinning or drug abuse or drinking, its still, at least partly, our choice.

 

[trophy33]

No, I'm saying that there is absolutely no free will. The bible does not support the concept.

Thats not what we experience daily and it would also make us not responsible for our evil (or good) deeds.

Freedom does not have to be absolute to be a freedom.

 

[martymonster]

Even if we are enslaved by own bad habits, like sinning or drug abuse or drinking, its still, at least partly, our choice.

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

The word servant here, mean's slave. So, whoever commits sin is the slave of sin. A slave of sin is not free to not sin. This absolutely flies in the face of the "free will" doctrine.

 

[trophy33]

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

The word servant here, mean's slave. So, whoever commits sin is the slave of sin. A slave of sin is not free to not sin. This absolutely flies in the face of the "free will" doctrine.

It does not have to be intepreted in such a way.

For example, I can drink so frequently, that I will become an addict. Therefore I will become a slave of alcohol (or of sexual desire or of sugar, of violence, whatever).

But its not some kind of absolute slavery in which I do not have even a milimeter of space to slowly get back on track, step by step. Therefore, I am responsible.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Isa 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

Imagine if God actually judged Israel for these things?

Exo 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. And they did so.

Did not God harden Pharaoh's heart and then judge him for his actions?

Also, Paul directly adresses what you are saying, in Romans.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Yes - I appreciate this.

Frankly I see predestination of salvation different than predestination of believers obedience.

So at Judgement He will seperate those created for salvation but will judge their obedience and reward eternally.

 

[Brightfame52]

I see what you are saying. And I am not in any way trying to say you are wrong. God is sovereign, and has determined who will and who will not be saved (whether that is by His choosing who to save and who to condemn, or by His giving us the choice and "calling" those who answer).
But your focus on the predestination of man tends to overlook and eliminate the responsibility of Mankind to respond to God for salvation. It is very clear in Scripture that only those who obey God will be saved. Does God cause us to obey like a puppeteer controls a puppet? Or has He given us our own will, and then given us enough evidence in nature, and in the Scriptures, to hear His call and answer Him.
I believe that it is the latter. I believe that His "call" is open to everyone, and those who hear and obey the call are the ones who will be saved.

My point is that continually focusing on predestination leads to a fatalistic attitude that not only do we not need to obey, but we don't even need to evangelize, because what is the point of seeking the lost and trying to win them for Christ if they were never going to be saved anyway. And if they are going to be saved, then they will be saved if we bring them the Word or not. But that is a very unBiblical attitude.

I have witnessed to you the truth. Those who God calls He Justifies, and Glorifies.

 

[disciple Clint]

Just lean on the traditions of men, eh?

as I believe a literalist might say, it says right there in black and white just as clear as day, "lean not on your own understanding" now that is the word of God right there in the bible, it means what it says. Do you see the problem with taking the literal, out of context, meaning of things? The true meaning of a passage is the meaning it had to the person hearing it at the time it was written. Since we live in a different time, speak a different language, have different life experiences, are in a different culture, and are not familiar with the genre of literature of those times it is not possible for us to get the full meaning of a passage without having knowledge of all those things. Bible commentaries writers are scholars who consider those things to clarify the meaning of each scripture, this helps us to understand what it is that God is truly trying to communicate to us.

 

[disciple Clint]

This is more an emotional argument related to current cultural American teaching of self-respect - we are all kings and queens and everything is there just for us and even God must stay away.

But its neither logical nor biblical. Its just an illusion.

No it is historically correct, supported by the bible and can be traced all the way back to the understanding of theology of the Church Fathers and Doctors of the Church.

 

[trophy33]

No it is historically correct, supported by the bible and can be traced all the way back to the understanding of theology of the Church Fathers and Doctors of the Church.

Even Pelagius would be aghast knowing what some today's Christians think about the boundaries of God and about self-centered views of personal freedom.

 

[Clare73]

God knows everything, He is unlimited, one of His fundamental characteristic is omniscience. 138 Bible verses about God, All Knowing

The subject here is the meaning in Scripture of God's foreknowledge, not of God's omniscience.

And in Scripture, God's foreknowledge is of what he is going to do, because he has already declared that he shall do it, not of what man is going to do.

In Scripture, God's foreknowledge is not about God basing his decisions on what man is going to do, it's about God knowing what he has declared to do and, therefore, shall do.

 

[Clare73]

We choose what we want, but this choosing is not random or unpredictacle, but is certain, based upon various reasons like taste, mood, knowledge or life conditions.

And then again, these reasons are not random and unpredictable, but have their specific causes and those causes have their causes etc leading back to the initial conditions in the beginning of the universe.

And all of which conditions and reasons determine what choice we prefer and, therefore, make to best deal with them.

 

[Clare73]

The problem with this definition is that it doesn't take into account that free will always operates within limits.

Man is created with finite means.

He also is born into a world that presents limitations on his activities.

Therefore absolute free will is a myth.

However he does have the power to choose within the limitations presented.

Actually, this definition sets the limits of free will to the choice of what one prefers.
Unregenerate man does not prefer submission to God and, therefore, does not voluntarily choose it.

 

[Clare73]

Even Pelagius would be aghast knowing what some today's Christians think
about the boundaries of God and about self-centered views of personal freedom.

As well he should, since his view that unregenerate sinful man must be completely free to be responsible for sin is contra-Biblical (Romans 7:7-8).

 

[TedT]

Depends on how we define "free will". If properly (= we are not forced), then it really exists.

Not forced nor CONSTRAINED FROM being able to choose an available option like being unable to choose righteousness because of our enslavement to sin. This inability proves sinners do not have a free will.

 

[TedT]

The only reason the free will doctrine exists, is because the eternal punishment doctrine exists.

I must differ:
GOD will marry HIS creation in the heavenly marriage and no marriage can be forced on the bride but the proposal of marriage must be freely accepted, uncoerced by anything, for the marriage to be real, whether the bride realizes the coercion or not.

Nor can true love be forced upon the bride but must grow in a free will environment.

GOD is not a Borg to accept a Stepford wife... A free will is an absolute necessity for the heavenly marriage to be a real, loving, marriage.

 

[TedT]

I see what you are saying. And I am not in any way trying to say you are wrong. God is sovereign, and has determined who will and who will not be saved (whether that is by His choosing who to save and who to condemn, or by His giving us the choice and "calling" those who answer).

A third possibility is also available if HE gave everyone the gospel choice then responded to to our choices by electing those who accepted faith in HIM and not electing those who rejected faith in HIM...

When the promise of election is fulfilled in a sinner it is called salvation.
Predestination is not causal, it is predictive.