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Do you believe in predestination?

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by RGW00, Aug 3, 2017.

  1. PeaceB

    PeaceB Well-Known Member

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    During the time of Felix IV

    The Council of Orange (529)

    Canon 3. If anyone says that the grace of God can be conferred as a result of human prayer, but that it is not grace itself which makes us pray to God, he contradicts the prophet Isaiah, or the Apostle who says the same thing, "I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me" (Rom 10:20, quoting Isa. 65:1).

    Canon 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, "The will is prepared by the Lord" (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
     
  2. Newlyrestoredgospel777

    Newlyrestoredgospel777 Member

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    THE MYSTERY OF WHEAT AND TARES

    Romans 1:20
    For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    Every human under the sun irrespective of race, colour or tribe is either among the pure hominids (wheat) or the tare hominids (tares). The wheat (children of the kingdom) are descendants from heaven, this is the reason in planting, the seed goes through what seems like a descent into the soil(earth). The tares (children of darkness) are ascendants from the pit of hell, just like weeds spring out from the soil (earth), having no fruit/seed. This is not about their physical body, as what happens in the womb of a woman all through a gestation period is all about the physical body, but Man is a spirit being, therefore the man is the spirit in the body and not the body. The soul unified the body and the spirit. Without a tangible body, you cannot have an active existence in a real world. This is the reason for your journey into the earth, to acquire a body, to have an active existence, to then immortalize the body in life without tasting death at all.

    A tare is not a tare because he refused to repent. A tare is a tare by nature, the reason for the unquenchable hunger to do evil. Because they are in the definition of darkness, the imaginations of their heart is continually evil; Likewise a child of the kingdom is not a pure hominid because he chose to repent and live righteous, a child of the kingdom is a child of the kingdom by nature, this is the reason for the innate quest to know the GOD of creation and do HIS will, because he/she (the spirit) is from GOD's own Most Holy Spirit.

    GOD does not gamble and HE does not invest in loosers.

    GOD is not the GOD/CREATOR of tares. Therefore HE does not know them, as HE does not have to, yet HE knows whatsoever HE wants to know.

    Matthew 7:23
    And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
     
  3. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    Agreed.

    Tares will never be wheat.

    So let's discuss the wheat.

    Can one of His sheep, become lost.
     
  4. Newlyrestoredgospel777

    Newlyrestoredgospel777 Member

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    None can get lost. A child of the kingdom cannot become a Tare. But if a child of the kingdom decides to live like a Tare, there is something it will cost him, which will be eternal.

    The only one that almost got lost, because of the price He paid for the procreation of His children, needed the GOD to come as a propitation to atone for His sin and bail Him, like the good shepherd that lost a sheep and had to leave the 99 to go for that one. Not because HE was careless with the 99, but it goes to show how the GOD is a goal getter and does not gamble, as HE knows the end from the beginning. That is the principal ancestor of Mankind.
     
  5. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    yes, God did not plant the TARES in God's field the world. The TARES were planted by the devil.

    The WHEAT were planted by the Son of MAN, Christ the Lord in God's field the world.
    When Christ makes you born again you are become a NEW creation, you are the WHEAT, not a TARE.
    All TARES are of the flesh and Satan and desire to be like the devil. They are unregenerate natural men.

    All WHEAT are born of God and desire to be pleasing to Christ and God and HE disciplines everyone He receives and not a single WHEAT plant is lost since they are all HIS WHEAT that HE planted. He guards His wheat, in fact he is not willing any wheat be damaged, so the tares are not plucked out until the end lest the wheat be hurt.

    Matthew 3:12
    His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
     
  6. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    • Yes, but the tares are the children of the wicked, See Matthew 13:28 [DARBY] "A man [that is] an enemy did this"..
    • and not from a non-existant devil. James 1:14 Every man is tempted (tested) by his OWN lusts
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017
  7. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    I know you believe the devil does not exist.
    1 Peter 5:8
    Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
     
  8. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    Sheep can indeed become lost.

    4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

    • likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

    If you "lose" something then it was yours, then it became lost, not being your anymore, unless it is found.

    Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.
    Found = Someone that is reconciled to God; saved.


    • Lost Sheep:
    I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:7

    • Lost Coin:
    Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
    Luke 15:10


    • Prodigal Son
    It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:32



    JLB
     
  9. Newlyrestoredgospel777

    Newlyrestoredgospel777 Member

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    A child of the kingdom is one because his spirit is holy and is from GOD while the tare is a tare because GOD did not send the his spirit from heaven. This was what the GOD who does not exaggerate meant in

    John 8:23
    And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

    The spirit of a child of the kingdom is heaven bred, unlike that of the tare which while in the earth, is in its exalted state, as that is the best it can go before being bundled into the Lake of fire.

    With this knowledge, even if a child of the kingdom dies without gaining salvation, it is not his end, as his ghost will continues his Christian race in Abraham's Bosom. The tare does not have that opportunity at all.

    The reason Our Supreme Lord Jesus Christ said that "all the Father had given me, I lost none..."
     
  10. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Well, there goes your devil theory! Who is this roaring Lion? Ezekiel 22:25 see also Ezekiel 22:27 The Priests and prophets are the roarng lions and see more at Isaiah 5:29 and 30; Jeremiah 2:15;Jeremiah 51:38; Hosiah 13:8
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017
  11. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    If it was good enough for Peter, and Peter had experience with Satan speaking through him, then it is good enough evidence to me that Satan is a real fallen angel.

    And your going against so much scripture to sustain your POV.
     
  12. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    You are mixed up
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017
  13. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    You must be on the wrong page for Matthew 16:23; the word used is G4625 οσδαβολον which means offense. So it reads He turned and said to Peter, Get thee back behind me accuser [σατανα of Chaldee origin G4567 from G4566 ] for you are an offense unto me.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017
  14. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    So Peter was offensive to Christ?
    No it was Satan Jesus was speaking to.

    Matthew 16:23
    But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

    1 Thessalonians 2:18
    Therefore we wanted to come to you—even I, Paul, time and again—but Satan hindered us.

    2 Corinthians 2:11
    lest Satan should take advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices.

    2 Thessalonians 2:9
    The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,

    Acts 5:3
    But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?

    Acts 26:18
    to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
     
  15. he-man

    he-man he-man

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  16. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    σατανα´ σατανας G4567 is the word used in all of your quotes and simply means accuser, opponent. In the last one, Acts of the Apostles 5:9 it is explained if you read all the verses. It goes on to say it was not a devil but it was what she and her husband both agreed to do together and conspired in their hearts!
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017
  17. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    They were fallen under the sway of Satan.
    They were judged in the flesh, but I think they went to be with the Lord.
    Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil.

    KJ21
    He that committeth sin is of the devil, for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

    Satan is the tempter, Satan tempted Eve and she listened to Satan and ate what God told her was forbidden to her.

    Those things were written down for our edification, by the will of the Holy Spirit to be scripture.
     
  18. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    Yes I agree, and I think that we have covered this, that a tare can not be saved, only wheat, only the servants of the Lord.


    So let's discuss His servants, His people, not tares.


    45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:45-51


    In both cases, the servant started out as wise and faithful, and was promoted to ruler over His house to give His people food in due season.



    • One servant continued to be faithful by continuing to do what his master gave him to do.
    • The other servant who was made ruler did not continue in what his master gave him to do, but began to associate with the immoral, and do what the immoral associates were doing, and turned against the masters servants and neglected them and abused them.

    • Both were His own servants.
    • Both began by being wise and faithful and were promoted to ruler of the masters house.

    • One continued to obey his master.
    • The other became disobedient

    • The one who continued to be obedient to the end was rewarded.
    • The one who became disobedient was sentenced to hell.


    JLB
     
  19. Newlyrestoredgospel777

    Newlyrestoredgospel777 Member

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    Mat 24:46 — Mat 24:51
    Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    These 2 different servants points to preachers. The true and the false.

    The true, having a full knowledge of the logos, was faithful till the end, while the false, not called by the GOD into ministry, but rather saw church ministry as a lucrative business, picked the bible to deceive many, saying in his heart that there is no GOD, that even if there is, he is not coming soon therefore was more concerned with all forms of evil atrocities, while carrying the bible because all he was interested in is his selfish desires and gains; to that one the GOD will come like a thief, not to the faithful servant, because he understands the logos.

    This false is not a child of the kingdom that made a mistake. He is a tare, that is why he ended up in hell and subsequently the lake of fire. He was considered a servant at all to be compared because he stood as a preacher of the gospel, but he is a liar and a wicked servant.
     
  20. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    If Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil what did the emolition of flesh and blood have to do with Jesus dying to destroy the devil? That seems like a very weak way to get rid of something so powerful if you think it was a literal devil isn't it? If your devil was a sinner from the beginning then it would mean your devil was not immortal and was a human. Eve was tempted by a snake and condemned to crawl on his belly all the days off his life. To imply otherwise is to go beyond what the scripture says. What Jesus came to destroy was those who were the false accusers the false Priests, the Pharisees and all who oppose him by teaching about demons from the dualism of a belief in more than one God. What Jesus was destroying by his death was sin and the wages of death.
     
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