Do you believe in predestination?

[sdowney717]

Erasmus fully realized the implications of Luther's strong statement of God's sovereignty. He writes that if this teaching of God's sovereignty is proclaimed, "Who will try and reform his life?"[37]

Luther lashes back, "I reply, Nobody! Nobody can! God has no time for your practitioners of self-reformation, for they are hypocrites. The elect, who fear God, will be reformed by the Holy Spirit; the rest will perish unreformed."[38]

Erasmus pushes the point: "Who will believe that God loves him?"

Luther stands his ground: "I reply, Nobody! Nobody can! But the elect shall believe it; and the rest shall perish without believing it, raging and blaspheming, as you describe them. So there will be some who believe it."[39]

This is the central point Erasmus makes in his Diatribe, that God's sovereignty should not be emphasized to the point that the freedom of man's will is usurped.



Luther fires volley after volley, arguing that unless the sovereign God changes the heart of man, none shall accept the gospel. He writes:



"God has surely promised His grace to the humbled: that is, to those who mourn over and despair of themselves. But a man cannot be thoroughly humbled till he realises [sic] that his salvation is utterly beyond his own powers, counsels, efforts, will and works, and depends absolutely on the will, counsel, pleasure and work of Another - God alone."[40]



Thus Luther affirms the absolute sovereignty of God in salvation. In this same passage, Luther also goes on to speak of those who are not elect, that is, the reprobate. He realizes that his theology will not allow him to speak only of the elect, but of the non-elect as well. He writes:



"Thus God conceals His eternal mercy and loving kindness beneath eternal wrath, His righteousness beneath unrighteousness. Now, the highest degree of faith is to believe that He is merciful, though he saves so few and damns so many; to believe that He is just, though of His own will He makes us perforce proper subjects for damnation, and seems (in Erasmus' words) 'to delight in the torments of poor wretches and to be a fitter object for hate than for love.' If I could by any means understand how this same God, who makes such a show of wrath and unrighteousness, can yet be merciful and just, there would be no need for faith. But as it is, the impossibility of understanding makes room for the exercise of faith when these things are preached and published; just as, when God kills, faith in life is exercised in death."[41]



Thus Luther exhibits no qualms about following his theology to it's logical conclusion.



Time and time again he makes this known. He uses the specific examples of Pharoah, Judas, and Esau to prove his case that God sovereignly, in the counsel of His own will, determined to harden and reprobate them. At this point it is best to allow Luther to express his own views.



"Here, God Incarnate says: 'I would, and thou wouldst not.' God Incarnate, I repeat, was sent for this purpose, to will, say, do, suffer, and offer to all men, all that is necessary for salvation; albeit He offends many who, being abandoned or hardened by God's secret will of Majesty, do not receive Him thus willing, speaking, doing and offering. . . .It belongs to the same God Incarnate to weep, lament, and groan over the perdition of the ungodly, though that will of Majesty purposely leaves and reprobates some to perish. Nor is it for us to ask why He does so, but to stand in awe of God, Who can do, and wills to do such things."[42]



"On your view [Erasmus], God will elect nobody, and no place for election will be left; all that is left is freedom of will to heed or defy the long-suffering and wrath of God. But if God is thus robbed of His power and wisdom in election, what will He be but just that idol, Chance, under whose sway all things happen at random? Eventually, we shall come to this: that men may be saved and damned without God's knowledge! For He will not have marked out by sure election those that should be saved and those that should be damned; He will merely have set before all men His general long-suffering, which forbears and hardens, together with His chastening and punishing mercy, and left it to them to choose whether they would be saved or damned, while He Himself, perchance, goes off, as Homer says, to an Ethiopian banquet!"[43]

Double Or Nothing: Martin Luther's Doctrine of Predestination by Brian G. Mattson
So has today's Lutheranism fallen away from Luther?
Probably so.

 

[sdowney717]

"All things whatever arise from, and depend on, the divine appointment; whereby it was foreordained who should receive the word of life, and who should disbelieve it; who should be delivered from their sins, and who should be hardened in them; and who should be justified and who should be condemned." - Martin Luther

 

[JLB777]

Could you please show us the scripture which teaches that?

Thanks.

27 Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?”

28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first. Matthew 19:27-29

• when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones

Judas was destined to sit on one of the twelve thrones, with Jesus, reigning and ruling with Him forever.


Judas heard His Voice, and followed Jesus Christ, as a faithful disciple for 3 1/2 years, was then promoted to an Apostle, in which he was sent out as a sheep among wolves to preach the Gospel to the lost sheep of Israel, being empowered to heal the sick, cast out devil, raise the dead and cleanse the lepers.

1. Judas believed for a while, then fell by transgression, having become a traitor.
2. A traitor, by definition belongs to a kingdom, then becomes a traitor.
3. Someone who was never apart of a kingdom, may be an enemy, but to be a traitor they have to be a part of that kingdom, then defect and become a traitor.

12 Now it came to pass in those days that He went out to the mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God. 13 And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles: 14 Simon, whom He also named Peter, and Andrew his brother; James and John; Philip and Bartholomew; 15 Matthew and Thomas; James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called the Zealot; 16 Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor.
Luke 6:12-15


Saul was an enemy of the Gospel, then became Paul, an Apostle of the Lord.

Judas was an Apostle of the Lord, then became a traitor.

• Becomes means they were the one thing, then changed and became the other.

JLB

 

[sdowney717]

27 Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?”

28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first. Matthew 19:27-29

• when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones

Judas was destined to sit on one of the twelve thrones, with Jesus, reigning and ruling with Him forever.


Judas heard His Voice, and followed Jesus Christ, as a faithful disciple for 3 1/2 years, was then promoted to an Apostle, in which he was sent out as a sheep among wolves to preach the Gospel to the lost sheep of Israel, being empowered to heal the sick, cast out devil, raise the dead and cleanse the lepers.

1. Judas believed for a while, then fell by transgression, having become a traitor.
2. A traitor, by definition belongs to a kingdom, then becomes a traitor.
3. Someone who was never apart of a kingdom, may be an enemy, but to be a traitor they have to be a part of that kingdom, then defect and become a traitor.

12 Now it came to pass in those days that He went out to the mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God. 13 And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles: 14 Simon, whom He also named Peter, and Andrew his brother; James and John; Philip and Bartholomew; 15 Matthew and Thomas; James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called the Zealot; 16 Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor.
Luke 6:12-15


Saul was an enemy of the Gospel, then became Paul, an Apostle of the Lord.

Judas was an Apostle of the Lord, then became a traitor.

• Becomes means they were the one thing, then changed and became the other.

JLB

Actually I would not be wishing to call Christ a liar, which He would be lying if Jesus was referring to Judas, seeing Judas went to hell and would not be sitting on any throne as a judge.

Jesus had more than 12 disciples. And Matthias replaced Judas, a man chosen by lot by Christ, one who had also been an eyewitness along with all the others. Your making a way too far leap to say Christ was talking of Judas.

23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”

26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

27 Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?”

28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

 

[sdowney717]

Peter speaking, notice what he says, there are other disciples of Christ.
Acts 1
21 “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”

 

[JLB777]

Actually I would not be wishing to call Christ a liar, which He would be lying if Jesus was referring to Judas, seeing Judas went to hell and would not be sitting on any throne as a judge.

Jesus had more than 12 disciples. And Matthias replaced Judas, a man chosen by lot by Christ, one who had also been an eyewitness along with all the others. Your making a way too far leap to say Christ was talking of Judas.

23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”

26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

27 Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?”

28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

Jesus was indeed speaking to Judas, as He mentioned twelve thrones, and at that time Judas was one of His 12 disciples.

And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him. Matthew 10:1-4


Judas had yet to betray Him, when He spoke this to His 12 disciples, Judas included.


Judas became a traitor, as he was one of the twelve, then became a traitor.


At the time this was spoken to His 12 disciples, Judas had yet to become a traitor.


You don't just get to decide that some "other" disciple was one of the 12.



JLB

 

[JLB777]

Peter speaking, notice what he says, there are other disciples of Christ.
Acts 1
21 “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”

Yes, this occurred after Judas fell by transgression, as he was replaced.

Before he fell by transgression, he was a disciple, and destined to sit on one of the twelve thrones, but because he fell, he lost the chance to inherit eternal life.


24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” 26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles. Acts 1:24-26

• this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell

Judas was a part of the apostleship and destined to reign with Christ and the others, but fell by transgression, having become a traitor.


JLB

 

[Resha Caner]

I have nothing to discuss with you, regardless of any church's doctrinal position, if it does not agree with what scripture says ...

How do you know if church doctrine agrees with scripture if you don't understand said doctrine? Your post doesn't even relate to what I said, making it a strawman.

And if you don't agree with the definition of "predestination" that you posted (an odd thing in itself) ... then who is it that is making up definitions? You can't expect me to understand your meaning by posting definitions you don't agree with whilst failing to post definitions you do agree with.

 

[Marvin Knox]

..................Before he fell by transgression, he was a disciple, and destined to sit on one of the twelve thrones, but because he fell, he lost the chance to inherit eternal life.........
this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell
Judas was a part of the apostleship and destined to reign with Christ and the others, but fell by transgression, having become a traitor. JLB

I agree completely.

An apostle is one who is sent on a mission.

A disciple is one who is pupil of another.

In this case Judas was a pupil of Jesus and was sent on a mission to preach the coming of the Kingdom of God.

The promises given to him were contingent on absolute obedience to God as it always was in the old covenant.

The old covenant under which Judas operated has passed away.

Judas was not sealed with the Holy Spirit against the day of judgement as we are since the work of Christ has been completed.

Thank God for the promises we have under the new covenant in Christ's blood.

"But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises." Hebrews 8:6

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. For finding fault with them, He says,

“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
“For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.
“And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen,
And everyone his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
For all will know Me,
From the least to the greatest of them.
“For I will be merciful to their iniquities,
And I will remember their sins no more.”

When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear." Hebrews 8:6-13

"And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood. But behold, the hand of the one betraying Me is with Mine on the table. For indeed, the Son of Man is going as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!” Luke 22:19-22

It's interesting to me that Jesus actually referenced the betrayal of Judas under the old covenant of the law at the same time as He instituted the new covenant of grace.

I certainly hope that you are not conflating the two covenants. It seems to me that Jesus made it a real point to contrast the two covenants and their promises in this way.

There was not a sealing of the Holy Spirit in the first and there was a sealing in the last.

This is rather basic systematic theology is it not?

I certainly hope that you aren't trying to link the betrayal of Judas and the end result thereof to the concept of the eternal security of the N.T. believer.

 

[JLB777]

I agree completely.

An apostle is one who is sent on a mission.

A disciple is one who is pupil of another.

In this case Judas was a pupil of Jesus and was sent on a mission to preach the coming of the Kingdom of God.

The promises given to him were contingent on absolute obedience to God as it always was in the old covenant.

The old covenant under which Judas operated has passed away.

Judas was not sealed with the Holy Spirit against the day of judgement as we are since the work of Christ has been completed.

Thank God for the promises we have under the new covenant in Christ's blood.

"But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises." Hebrews 8:6

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. For finding fault with them, He says,

“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
“For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.
“And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen,
And everyone his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
For all will know Me,
From the least to the greatest of them.
“For I will be merciful to their iniquities,
And I will remember their sins no more.”

When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear." Hebrews 8:6-13

"And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood. But behold, the hand of the one betraying Me is with Mine on the table. For indeed, the Son of Man is going as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!” Luke 22:19-22

It's interesting to me that Jesus actually referenced the betrayal of Judas under the old covenant of the law at the same time as He instituted the new covenant of grace.

I certainly hope that you are not conflating the two covenants. It seems to me that Jesus made it a real point to contrast the two covenants and their promises in this way.

There was not a sealing of the Holy Spirit in the first and there was a sealing in the last.

This is rather basic systematic theology is it not?

I certainly hope that you aren't trying to link the betrayal of Judas and the end result thereof to the concept of the eternal security of the N.T. believer.

Judas Iscariot is the text book example of why there is no such concept as eternal security.

Judas was one of His sheep, who became lost.

Do you understand the biblical concept of one of His sheep who became lost?

Lost = a sinner in need of repentance.

Found = reconciled to God

• Lost Sheep:

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:7

• Lost Coin:

Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Luke 15:10

• Prodigal Son

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:32


JLB

 

[shakewell]

I tend to believe God doesn't act on people going into heaven or not. Let me explain what I mean here.

In the Bible it talks about how God knows who will go to heaven and who will not. However, I don't think he controls who goes to Heaven and who doesn't. If you look in the Bible in Genesis 3:22, it states: Then the Lord our God said Behold the man has become like one of us to know good and evil.

Jesus was tempted and was without sin that is what makes Him the perfect mediator between man and God. God and Jesus hand-in-hand don't know what sin is, so how could God plan to save certain people and others He casts into Hell? I believe it is our choice to follow God and accept the Holy Spirit into our lives but I do not think that He believes that any one person is going to Hell or Heaven.

To make matters less confusing, let me put it this way. God knows who will go to Heaven and Hell, but he doesn't act on who will go to Heaven and Hell. He gives the opportunity to each individual and allows for everyone to follow Him and he leaves the choice up to us whether we want to follow Him or not. If we never accept Him into our lives, then he has nothing to do with us (but still uses them to fulfill his plan) and doesn't claim to be our parent in Christ.

Thoughts?

You are right.
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I am really not certain one way or the other, but the predestinarians have the stronger arguments.

We do, so why the uncertainty on your part?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I tend to believe God doesn't act on people going into heaven or not. Let me explain what I mean here.

In the Bible it talks about how God knows who will go to heaven and who will not. However, I don't think he controls who goes to Heaven and who doesn't. If you look in the Bible in Genesis 3:22, it states: Then the Lord our God said Behold the man has become like one of us to know good and evil.

Jesus was tempted and was without sin that is what makes Him the perfect mediator between man and God. God and Jesus hand-in-hand don't know what sin is, so how could God plan to save certain people and others He casts into Hell? I believe it is our choice to follow God and accept the Holy Spirit into our lives but I do not think that He believes that any one person is going to Hell or Heaven.

To make matters less confusing, let me put it this way. God knows who will go to Heaven and Hell, but he doesn't act on who will go to Heaven and Hell. He gives the opportunity to each individual and allows for everyone to follow Him and he leaves the choice up to us whether we want to follow Him or not. If we never accept Him into our lives, then he has nothing to do with us (but still uses them to fulfill his plan) and doesn't claim to be our parent in Christ.

Thoughts?

How do you get water from a well?

How did Peter catch fish?

 

[Albion]

We do, so why the uncertainty on your part?

Because there are also a number of Bible verses that seem to lean the other way.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Judas Iscariot is the text book example of why there is no such concept as eternal security.

Judas is a textbook case of why we needed a new covenant in the blood of Jesus Christ.

One of the reasons for Christ's death, resurrection, advocacy and sealing by His Spirit is illustrated in this textbook case of Judas and his failure to "earn" eternal life.

Do you understand the biblical concept of one of His sheep who became lost?

Yes.

Christ was sent to the lost sheep of Israel but most of His own received Him not.

Those the Father gave to the Son came to the Son and He will lose none of them but will raise them up on the last day.

By the way:
"A ruler questioned Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus said to him.....................................,“One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” Luke 18:18-22

"Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?”

Concerning Judas ..... "Now he said this, not because he was concerned about the poor, but because he was a thief, and as he had the money box, he used to pilfer what was put into it." John 12:6

Do you really think that Judas inherited eternal life according to the requirements of God before the death of Jesus Christ on our behalf and then lost it again?

Your failure to see why the case of Judas is not an illustration of salvation gained and then lost shows your complete misunderstanding of the relationship of God with men under the old covenant and His relationship with men under the new.

I suppose every other guy I talk to here in the forum holds a position concerning OSAS and that's OK. It's a debatable issue even if I do believe that they are clearly wrong.

But, IMO, this half baked idea that Judas was saved and then lost again indicates that your cheese has completely slid off the cracker - theologically speaking.

 

[JLB777]

Judas is a textbook case of why we needed a new covenant in the blood of Jesus Christ.

One of the reasons for Christ's death, resurrection, advocacy and sealing by His Spirit is illustrated in this textbook case of Judas and his failure to "earn" eternal life.

I see, so the Gospel Jesus preached to Judas wasn't somehow good enough to qualify as being an authentic Gospel?

“The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. Luke 16:16

• Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.

You err, not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God.


JLB

 

[JLB777]

Christ was sent to the lost sheep of Israel but most of His own received Him not.

Those the Father gave to the Son came to the Son and He will lose none of them but will raise them up on the last day.

By the way:
"A ruler questioned Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus said to him.....................................,“One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” Luke 18:18-22

"Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?”

Concerning Judas ..... "Now he said this, not because he was concerned about the poor, but because he was a thief, and as he had the money box, he used to pilfer what was put into it." John 12:6

Do you really think that Judas inherited eternal life according to the requirements of God before the death of Jesus Christ on our behalf and then lost it again?

Your failure to see why the case of Judas is not an illustration of salvation gained and then lost shows your complete misunderstanding of the relationship of God with men under the old covenant and His relationship with men under the new.

I suppose every other guy I talk to here in the forum holds a position concerning OSAS and that's OK. It's a debatable issue even if I do believe that they are clearly wrong.

But, IMO, this half baked idea that Judas was saved and then lost again indicates that your cheese has completely slid off the cracker - theologically speaking.

Judas heard His Voice, followed Him, and was known by Him.


27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


Judas was one of His sheep for a while, then became a traitor.

Judas became lost.

Judas wandered from the truth, and never returned to be forgiven, but hanged himself.


Knowing Jesus Christ is the definition of eternal life.


And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3


While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
John 17:12


Judas was a disciple, then an Apostle, in which he was destined to reign and rule with Christ and the other Apostles in the age to come, but was lost as a sheep, straying from his Sheppard.


28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
Matthew 19:28-29

• you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Just because Judas was predestined to reign and rule with Christ and the others, doesn't mean it was going to be automatic, he still had to continue to believe to the end in which he would receive the salvation of his soul.



Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:8-9

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

Those who believe for a while, then fall away, like Judas, have lost their salvation they were appointed to have.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13


Believe = Saved

• lest they should believe and be saved

Believe for a while = Saved for a while

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believer, are no longer believers.



Those who depart from Christ, no longer have the salvation they once had when they had faith.


Paul teaches the same thing in Hebrews

• evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14



JLB

 

[sdowney717]

Judas heard His Voice, followed Him, and was known by Him.


27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


Judas was one of His sheep for a while, then became a traitor.

Judas became lost.

Judas wandered from the truth, and never returned to be forgiven, but hanged himself.


Knowing Jesus Christ is the definition of eternal life.


And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3


While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
John 17:12


Judas was a disciple, then an Apostle, in which he was destined to reign and rule with Christ and the other Apostles in the age to come, but was lost as a sheep, straying from his Sheppard.


28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
Matthew 19:28-29

• you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Just because Judas was predestined to reign and rule with Christ and the others, doesn't mean it was going to be automatic, he still had to continue to believe to the end in which he would receive the salvation of his soul.



Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:8-9

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

Those who believe for a while, then fall away, like Judas, have lost their salvation they were appointed to have.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13


Believe = Saved

• lest they should believe and be saved

Believe for a while = Saved for a while

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believer, are no longer believers.



Those who depart from Christ, no longer have the salvation they once had when they had faith.


Paul teaches the same thing in Hebrews

• evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14



JLB

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
John 17:12

A son of perdition God would never allow to sit on a throne as a judge of His people!
Anathema...
Further on Jesus tells us He DOES NOT SPEAK of those good things for JUDAS! He says, I know whom I have chosen, and Judas was not chosen to sit on a throne, Judas was chosen to be the betrayer as was spoken of that man long ago in prophecy.

John 18

18 “I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’ 19 Now I tell you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe that I am He.

 

[JLB777]

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
John 17:12

A son of perdition God would never allow to sit on a throne as a judge of His people!

None of His sheep were lost except.

Judas was one of His sheep, who became lost.

This can not be denied.

The principle is taught by Jesus -

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

• likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

A sheep that belongs to the Sheppard and is lost, is as a sinner that needs to repent.

If the sheep repents and returns to the Sheppard, then the lost condition, is replaced by the found condition.

• Lost = sinner who needs to repent; dead to God; un-reconciled to God
• Found = reconciled to God; reconnected with God

Judas was one of His sheep, then was lost.


Judas was a disciple, and an Apostle, then turned from Christ, and became a traitor, in which he became a son of perdition.

• He was not a son of perdition, when he was following Jesus as a disciple.
• He was not a son of perdition, but an Apostle when he was preaching the Gospel to the lost.
  
• He was not a son of perdition, but an Apostle when he was casting out devils.
  
• He was not a son of perdition, but an Apostle when he was healing the sick.
  
• He was not a son of perdition, but an Apostle when he was cleansing the lepers.
  
• He was not a son of perdition, but an Apostle when he was raising the dead.

These are the signs that follow believers.


And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. 9 Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, 10 nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food. 11 “Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out. 12 And when you go into a household, greet it.13 If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. Matthew 10:1-14

• But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
• And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
• Heal the sick
  
• cleanse the lepers
  
• raise the dead
  
• cast out demons

If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it.

• Saul was an enemy of the Gospel, then became Paul, an Apostle of the Lord.

• Judas was an Apostle of the Lord, then became a traitor.

Becomes means they were the one thing, then changed and became the other.



JLB

 

[sdowney717]

None of His sheep were lost except.

Judas was one of His sheep, who became lost.

This can not be denied.

The principle is taught by Jesus -

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

• likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

A sheep that belongs to the Sheppard and is lost, is as a sinner that needs to repent.

If the sheep repents and returns to the Sheppard, then the lost condition, is replaced by the found condition.

• Lost = sinner who needs to repent; dead to God; un-reconciled to God
• Found = reconciled to God; reconnected with God

Judas was one of His sheep, then was lost.


Judas was a disciple, and an Apostle, then turned from Christ, and became a traitor, in which he became a son of perdition.

• He was not a son of perdition, when he was following Jesus as a disciple.
• He was not a son of perdition, but an Apostle when he was preaching the Gospel to the lost.
  
• He was not a son of perdition, but an Apostle when he was casting out devils.
  
• He was not a son of perdition, but an Apostle when he was healing the sick.
  
• He was not a son of perdition, but an Apostle when he was cleansing the lepers.
  
• He was not a son of perdition, but an Apostle when he was raising the dead.

These are the signs that follow believers.


And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. 9 Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, 10 nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food. 11 “Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out. 12 And when you go into a household, greet it.13 If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. Matthew 10:1-14

• But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
• And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
• Heal the sick
  
• cleanse the lepers
  
• raise the dead
  
• cast out demons

If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it.

• Saul was an enemy of the Gospel, then became Paul, an Apostle of the Lord.

• Judas was an Apostle of the Lord, then became a traitor.

Becomes means they were the one thing, then changed and became the other.



JLB

None of those the Father gives to Christ is lost or will be lost, they will all be saved as they are all elect and predestined.
The only exception was Judas who was lost.
All are predestined, Judas was chosen to be an apostle by Christ but before that Judas was chosen to be the betrayer of Christ by God the Father.

All those the Father gives to Me will come to Me and those who come to Me I will never cast away.
There are no more Judas's whom the Father gives to Christ who will be lost.

God preserves His saints from departing from Christ in unbelief, because He has granted them to come to Christ and believe by faith. God is all powerful and does whatsoever He wishes, and His command is eternal life to Christ's sheep.

Your faith is according to God's grace so that the promise of Eternal life is made sure to all the seed of Abraham, (the children of God's promise), who is the father of all us believers.

Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all


John 6:12
So when they were filled, He said to His disciples, “Gather up the fragments that remain, so that nothing is lost.”

John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

John 18:9
that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, “Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none.”

None of us can be chosen and then lost. Salvation is a done deal. The sheep follow Christ, The sheep need a Shepherd, and Christ is the good shepherd of the sheep who manages the flock. And only the sheep are saved.