Do you believe in predestination?

[RGW00]

I tend to believe God doesn't act on people going into heaven or not. Let me explain what I mean here.

In the Bible it talks about how God knows who will go to heaven and who will not. However, I don't think he controls who goes to Heaven and who doesn't. If you look in the Bible in Genesis 3:22, it states: Then the Lord our God said Behold the man has become like one of us to know good and evil.

Jesus was tempted and was without sin that is what makes Him the perfect mediator between man and God. God and Jesus hand-in-hand don't know what sin is, so how could God plan to save certain people and others He casts into Hell? I believe it is our choice to follow God and accept the Holy Spirit into our lives but I do not think that He believes that any one person is going to Hell or Heaven.

To make matters less confusing, let me put it this way. God knows who will go to Heaven and Hell, but he doesn't act on who will go to Heaven and Hell. He gives the opportunity to each individual and allows for everyone to follow Him and he leaves the choice up to us whether we want to follow Him or not. If we never accept Him into our lives, then he has nothing to do with us (but still uses them to fulfill his plan) and doesn't claim to be our parent in Christ.

Thoughts?

 

[Roseonathorn]

I strongly believe the Lord acts and leads people to us to nudge us into His kingdom, to pray for us and sometimes He himself tells us what to do in order to get truly saved in different ways.

 

[Eryk]

Acts 13:48
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. (NIV)

When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying [praising and giving thanks for] the word of the Lord; and all those who had been appointed (designated, ordained) to eternal life [by God] believed [in Jesus as the Christ and their Savior]. (Amplified)

 

[RGW00]

I strongly believe the Lord acts and leads people to us to nudge us into His kingdom, to pray for us and sometimes He himself tells us what to do in order to get truly saved in different ways.

Yes, I believe He tries to get everyone to go into Heaven. Let me further build on my original point. I believe He doesn't know our mistakes that we make here on Earth when we are His child, but if we aren't, He still doesn't because we aren't even His child to begin with.

 

[AlexDTX]

I tend to believe God doesn't act on people going into heaven or not. Let me explain what I mean here.

In the Bible it talks about how God knows who will go to heaven and who will not. However, I don't think he controls who goes to Heaven and who doesn't. If you look in the Bible in Genesis 3:22, it states: Then the Lord our God said Behold the man has become like one of us to know good and evil.

Jesus was tempted and was without sin that is what makes Him the perfect mediator between man and God. God and Jesus hand-in-hand don't know what sin is, so how could God plan to save certain people and others He casts into Hell? I believe it is our choice to follow God and accept the Holy Spirit into our lives but I do not think that He believes that any one person is going to Hell or Heaven.

To make matters less confusing, let me put it this way. God knows who will go to Heaven and Hell, but he doesn't act on who will go to Heaven and Hell. He gives the opportunity to each individual and allows for everyone to follow Him and he leaves the choice up to us whether we want to follow Him or not. If we never accept Him into our lives, then he has nothing to do with us (but still uses them to fulfill his plan) and doesn't claim to be our parent in Christ.

Thoughts?

Christ is the predestination. It is the desire of God for all to abide in Christ. Christ is the Elect, and all who elect to abide in Christ are the Elect. No, He is not willing that any should perish, but, yes, He knows those who will accept or reject the offer of salvation. Does that mean it is foreordained? I don't think so. I believe reality has to play itself out. God knew Adam could sin, so Christ was prepared to be sacrificed before the foundation of the world. But not until Adam did sin was Christ slain from the foundation of the world. This is the free will factor. So all are given the same chance as Adam. We still make the choice to either accept or reject salvation.

Just a word of caution. Every Calvinist I have spoken to do not participate in a conversation with any interest in why you think the way you do. They have always used every point to argue their point of view. When I realize I am talking to a Calvinist, I withdraw from the conversation.

 

[OrthodoxLady1994]

Nope. Predestination is Heresy. If it were not, then Jesus wouldn't have given us instructions about how to be saved and how to have a relationship with him.

 

[Marvin Knox]

........................ I believe it is our choice to follow God and accept the Holy Spirit into our lives..

Those who believe in predestination and those who do not all tend to believe that.

....I do not think that He believes that any one person is going to Hell or Heaven.

....... God is omniscience. God also "believes" what He knows. He knows everything including who will and will not go to Hell or Heaven.

.....he doesn't act on who will go to Heaven and Hell. He gives the opportunity to each individual and allows for everyone to follow Him

The experience of Paul alone takes issue with that idea.

Obviously some get more opportunity to choose rightly than others.

........................God and Jesus hand-in-hand don't know what sin is,

??????
"Then the LORD God said, 'Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever' .... Genesis 3:22

I believe He doesn't know our mistakes that we make here on Earth when we are His child, but if we aren't, He still doesn't because we aren't even His child to begin with.

I'm not completely sure what you mean by this. But it seems you deny the doctrine of omniscience.

I don't believe that a denial of the omniscience of God is a doctrine which most non-Calvinists would subscribe to. Obviously it isn't a doctrine which any Calvinist would subscribe to.

.... he leaves the choice up to us whether we want to follow Him or not. If we never accept Him into our lives, then he has nothing to do with us (but still uses them to fulfill his plan) and doesn't claim to be our parent in Christ.

I totally agree with this. As does - by the way - everyone who teaches predestination and even those who teach election (with certain scriptural caveats).

You seem to not understand that predestination and election are not the same thing.

Everything that happens in God's creation was predestined to happen. That is not only scriptural - it is inescapable logic considering what we know of the omniscience of God.

What He knew before creation would happen if He acted in certain ways was bound to happen when He so acted (it was predestined to happen).

Since all things in His creation have their being in God and, as it says, created by Him and for Him and consisting in Him - He is the one who ordains whatsoever happens by choosing to act (speak) in the ways He knew beforehand would have certain results.

In other words (God's words) He is the one who predestines whatsoever takes place since there is no other God beside Him.

When it comes to election - that is another kind of discussion and the two words should not be conflated.

It seems to many of us who incorporate all of the scriptures in our theology that God has taught the truth of election both in direct doctrinal teaching and in example after example given to us in the scriptures.

Nope. Predestination is Heresy. If it were not, then Jesus wouldn't have given us instructions about how to be saved and how to have a relationship with him.

Nope. Predestination is a scriptural based doctrine. If you believe the scriptures you believe in some form of predestination.

There is definitely more than just a little debate concerning exactly how predestination plays out, particularly with regards to the salvation of individuals.

Our following of Jesus' instructions about how to be saved and have a relationship with Him is the means which God uses to bring to past what He has predestined to take place.

I'm not sure where you are getting your information. But according to Reformed doctrine (Calvinist doctrine included) - there is no conflict between predestination and the will of men.

Every Calvinist I have spoken to do not participate in a conversation with any interest in why you think the way you do. They have always used every point to argue their point of view. When I realize I am talking to a Calvinist, I withdraw from the conversation.

Most Calvinists I have spoken to are very interested in participating in a conversation about the mechanics of salvation. They are usually very much interested in debating against an alternate viewpoint.

If debating in a systematic way what the scriptures teach about these things, including predestination and election, offends you -- then any "fault" is in your court and not theirs, it seems to me.

Having said that - there are some mighty rude and obstinate Calvinists just as there are the same in non-Calvinist circles.

 

[Albion]

I am really not certain one way or the other, but the predestinarians have the stronger arguments.

 

[RGW00]

Those who believe in predestination and those who do not all tend to believe that.

....... God is omniscience. God also "believes" what He knows. He knows everything including who will and will not go to Hell or Heaven.

The experience of Paul alone takes issue with that idea.

Obviously some get more opportunity to choose rightly than others.

??????
"Then the LORD God said, 'Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever' .... Genesis 3:22

I'm not completely sure what you mean by this. But it seems you deny the doctrine of omniscience.

I don't believe that a denial of the omniscience of God is a doctrine which most non-Calvinists would subscribe to. Obviously it isn't a doctrine which any Calvinist would subscribe to.

I totally agree with this. As does - by the way - everyone who teaches predestination and even those who teach election (with certain scriptural caveats).

You seem to not understand that predestination and election are not the same thing.

Everything that happens in God's creation was predestined to happen. That is not only scriptural - it is inescapable logic considering what we know of the omniscience of God.

What He knew before creation would happen if He acted in certain ways was bound to happen when He so acted (it was predestined to happen).

Since all things in His creation have their being in God and, as it says, created by Him and for Him and consisting in Him - He is the one who ordains whatsoever happens by choosing to act (speak) in the ways He knew beforehand would have certain results.

In other words (God's words) He is the one who predestines whatsoever takes place since there is no other God beside Him.

When it comes to election - that is another kind of discussion and the two words should not be conflated.

It seems to many of us who incorporate all of the scriptures in our theology that God has taught the truth of election both in direct doctrinal teaching and in example after example given to us in the scriptures.


Nope. Predestination is a scriptural based doctrine. If you believe the scriptures you believe in some form of predestination.

There is definitely more than just a little debate concerning exactly how predestination plays out, particularly with regards to the salvation of individuals.

Our following of Jesus' instructions about how to be saved and have a relationship with Him is the means which God uses to bring to past what He has predestined to take place.

I'm not sure where you are getting your information. But according to Reformed doctrine (Calvinist doctrine included) - there is no conflict between predestination and the will of men.


Most Calvinists I have spoken to are very interested in participating in a conversation about the mechanics of salvation. They are usually very much interested in debating against an alternate viewpoint.

If debating in a systematic way what the scriptures teach about these things, including predestination and election, offends you -- then any "fault" is in your court and not theirs, it seems to me.

Having said that - there are some mighty rude and obstinate Calvinists just as there are the same in non-Calvinist circles.

Not to be out of line or disrespectful, but who brought the Calvinists into this? I never stated I was a Calvinist throughout this entire post. But as far as what you say about me denying the doctrine of omniscience, I never said that either. What I meant by that is that He doesn't know what mistakes we make if we are His child because He forgives us for them once we accept Him, and even if we aren't saved, He still doesn't draw attention to those mistakes because we aren't His child.
What I meant by that verse is that he knows what evil is and that it exists, but he cannot gravitate toward it at all and he doesn't ever associate Himself with evil. Therefore, that verse in Amos stands to reason that Jesus was not formed on this earth to be able to sin, and the same goes with God in Heaven.

 

[AlexDTX]

Most Calvinists I have spoken to are very interested in participating in a conversation about the mechanics of salvation. They are usually very much interested in debating against an alternate viewpoint.

That is not what I said. They are not interested in "why" we disagree.

 

[sdowney717]

That is not what I said. They are not interested in "why" we disagree.

Likely because of what the scripture says.
And predestined to be Christians is for all those God foreknew as His people. God did not foreknow all people as His people.

This is about spiritual warfare and pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments against the truth.
.
2 Corinthians 10New King James Version (NKJV)
The Spiritual War
1 Now I, Paul, myself am pleading with you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ—who in presence am lowly among you, but being absent am bold toward you. 2 But I beg you that when I am present I may not be bold with that confidence by which I intend to be bold against some, who think of us as if we walked according to the flesh. 3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh.

4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.

 

[sdowney717]

Not to be out of line or disrespectful, but who brought the Calvinists into this? I never stated I was a Calvinist throughout this entire post. But as far as what you say about me denying the doctrine of omniscience, I never said that either. What I meant by that is that He doesn't know what mistakes we make if we are His child because He forgives us for them once we accept Him, and even if we aren't saved, He still doesn't draw attention to those mistakes because we aren't His child.
What I meant by that verse is that he knows what evil is and that it exists, but he cannot gravitate toward it at all and he doesn't ever associate Himself with evil. Therefore, that verse in Amos stands to reason that Jesus was not formed on this earth to be able to sin, and the same goes with God in Heaven.

Except Christ knows all men. He was not ignorant when here on earth.
John 2:23-25New King James Version (NKJV)
The Discerner of Hearts
23 Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did. 24 But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men,25 and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man.

Christ also was a mind reader, He knew their thoughts.

 

[JLB777]

Acts 13:48
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. (NIV)

When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying [praising and giving thanks for] the word of the Lord; and all those who had been appointed (designated, ordained) to eternal life [by God] believed [in Jesus as the Christ and their Savior]. (Amplified)

So you agree the condition for eternal life is "believe"?

Judas was appointed to eternal life.

Does that condition ever change, in that a person who no longer believes, still has eternal life?

Can a tare ever be appointed to eternal life?


JLB

 

[AlexDTX]

Likely because of what the scripture says.
And predestined to be Christians is for all those God foreknew as His people. God did not foreknow all people as His people.

Your response is an example of the Calvinist replies. You give me your proof texts. But all scriptures are subject to interpretation. Please don't quote Peter to me, either. All doctrines that I have heard are intellectual reasoning, not Spirit led understanding. The Pharisees misunderstood the first coming of Christ because of their reasoning. Cults are formed by their natural reasoning of Scriptures. Knowing the Scriptures by the Spirit means knowing the Spirit personally and examining the Scriptures in light of one's relationship with the Spirit. It is knowing in the biblical sense just as I know my wife. I don't have to study her letters to me to know her. I know her because I live with her every day. The Spirit lives in me and I know Him in the same way. It is by that knowledge I approach understanding what the Scriptures mean. But those who try to understand the Spirit by their reasoning, only know Him in a shallow way.

 

[Eryk]

So you agree the condition for eternal life is "believe"?

Judas was appointed to eternal life.

Does that condition ever change, in that a person who no longer believes, still has eternal life?

Can a tare ever be appointed to eternal life?


JLB

God will preserve the saints.

He who has begun a good work in you will perfect it to the end (Phil. 1:6)

 

[Danthemailman]

I believe that predestination is based on God's foreknowledge and not on fatalistic determination.

Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

 

[sdowney717]

Your response is an example of the Calvinist replies. You give me your proof texts. But all scriptures are subject to interpretation. Please don't quote Peter to me, either. All doctrines that I have heard are intellectual reasoning, not Spirit led understanding. The Pharisees misunderstood the first coming of Christ because of their reasoning. Cults are formed by their natural reasoning of Scriptures. Knowing the Scriptures by the Spirit means knowing the Spirit personally and examining the Scriptures in light of one's relationship with the Spirit. It is knowing in the biblical sense just as I know my wife. I don't have to study her letters to me to know her. I know her because I live with her every day. The Spirit lives in me and I know Him in the same way. It is by that knowledge I approach understanding what the Scriptures mean. But those who try to understand the Spirit by their reasoning, only know Him in a shallow way.

Judge not lest you be judged, and found guilty of the same shallow understanding you accuse calvinism of.
I can say you're guilty of what you accuse others of in that your shallow in your understanding, and your unwilling to believe the scriptures. I am not being mean in saying that, I hope you understand my point.

 

[AlexDTX]

Judge not lest you be judged, and found guilty of the same shallow understanding you accuse calvinism of.
I can say you're guilty of what you accuse others of in that your shallow in your understanding, and your unwilling to believe the scriptures. I am not being mean in saying that, I hope you understand my point.

We are to judge.

1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
1Co 6:4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

And, once again, instead of trying to understand my reasons for rejecting Calvinism, your response is defensive with the assumption that your interpretation of the Scriptures. You say, "and your unwilling to believe the scriptures" , equating your interpretation as the only correct understanding. This is why I despise Calvinism.

 

[sdowney717]

We are to judge.

1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
1Co 6:4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

And, once again, instead of trying to understand my reasons for rejecting Calvinism, your response is defensive with the assumption that your interpretation of the Scriptures. You say, "and your unwilling to believe the scriptures" , equating your interpretation as the only correct understanding. This is why I despise Calvinism.

Your judgement of condemnation, or disgust, or loathing will come back on you, if God judges that you can not see clearly because of the log in your own eye that prevents you free seeing and believing the truth.
.
Matthew 7:1-3New King James Version (NKJV)
Do Not Judge
1 “Judge not, that you be not judged.

2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?

 

[AlexDTX]

Your judgement of condemnation, or disgust, or loathing will come back on you, if God judges that you can not see clearly because of the log in your own eye that prevents you free seeing and believing the truth.

Once again the same smug attitude is your response. If you are speaking the truth, the truth always stands because it is truth. But if you have to defend the truth, then it is not likely the truth.

It is like the proponents of vaccinations. If vaccinations truly work, then those who take it are protected and no disease will come to them. So why do they argue so hard for others to be vaccinated? If homosexuality is God given through birth, then why argue so hard to convince others? It is true of other Christian doctrines. If the pre-tribulation rapture is true, why do proponents of the doctrine argue so hard for it? If they are right, those who believe in post-tribulation rapture will also ascend in the air with the pre-tribbers. If Calvinism is true, why argue with other born again Spirit filled believers that it is true, when we are also part of the Elect and chosen by God already?

Men love to have everything in nice tidy packages. People seek doctrines that seem to answer all the questions so they can feel like they know it all. But life and the creation are much more complicated. So much more so, that only God truly understands his creation and tells us to come to him as a child with simple faith and trust. What is that simple faith and trust supposed to be in? Him. And his good character. This is why Mankind fell in the Garden of Eden, they simply did not trust His character. If they did they would have not given any heed to the voice of the serpent.

I despise the doctrine of Calvinism because it subtly undermines the good character of God. To think that God chooses people for damnation is an affront to his good character. And, frankly, I believe the same voice of the serpent led Calvin to write his Institutes.