Do you believe in predestination?

[Ron Gurley]

Q: ..."Do you "believe" in "pre-destination"?...
A: NO. It is a false doctrine based on
MISS-interpretation of minimal Scripture.

God FORE-KNOWS all because He is all everything.

God does not IRREVOCABLY FORE-ORDAIN all because He gave the spiritual gift of "free will" to Men and angels to operate within His Sovreign powers.

DEFINITIONS!!:

pre-destination.(NOUN)

(as a doctrine in Christian theology)
the divine fore-ordaining of all that will happen,
especially with regard to the salvation of some and not others.
It has been particularly associated with the teachings of St. Augustine of Hippo and of John Calvin.

Predestine, Predestination | carm

What is predestination? Is predestination biblical?

Predestination Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

Predestination | Theopedia

 

[JLB777]

None of those the Father gives to Christ is lost or will be lost, they will all be saved as they are all elect and predestined.
The only exception was Judas who was lost.
All are predestined, Judas was chosen to be an apostle by Christ but before that Judas was chosen to be the betrayer of Christ by God the Father.

The Father gave Jesus 12 disciples to follow Him on earth.

11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:11-12

Them, those, these are references to His 12 Disciples, of which one was lost.


If you have a scripture that shows us that the Father gave Him more than 12 disciples, to be with Him, and be sent out as apostles then please post it.


If you have a scripture that teaches us God predestines people for salvation, while He predestines other for damnation, then please share it with us.



JLB

 

[sdowney717]

The Father gave Jesus 12 disciples to follow Him on earth.

11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:11-12

Them, those, these are references to His 12 Disciples, of which one was lost.


If you have a scripture that shows us that the Father gave Him more than 12 disciples, to be with Him, and be sent out as apostles then please post it.


If you have a scripture that teaches us God predestines people for salvation, while He predestines other for damnation, then please share it with us.



JLB

'The Father gave Jesus 12 disciples to follow Him on earth.'

Luke 6:13
And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles:

Out of a larger group of Jesus's disciples, Christ chooses 12 disciples to become apostles who have been named in scripture.
You must think he sends the other disciples away from Him?
Matthias was one of Christ's disciples, after Judas, the lot fell to Matthias to become an apostle in Judas' place.

There is also another disciple named Barsabas.
Acts 1:20-24New King James Version (NKJV)
20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms:

‘Let his dwelling place be desolate,
And let no one live in it’;

and,

‘Let another take his office.’

21 “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”

23 And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen

I was trying to think of the purpose for Judas, and one is this.
Judas demonstrates the absolute sovereignty of God regarding salvation.
Judas was one of those God predetermined his destiny to be damned. Jesus did call him a devil and devils go to hellfire.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Do you believe in predestination?

Do I have a choice?

 

[sdowney717]

Do I have a choice?

All people have choices, but can they make the right choices?
What if they never hear the gospel? They have no ability to choose anything about Christ if they never hear. How many people lived and died not hearing or seeing?
Jesus tells us we are blessed if we see and hear Him, and that it is His choice to will if someone will know God and Christ. And if He does not will that they know God, they won't know God and be saved.

Can you see the truth here related to election and being chosen, hence predestined to know God and Christ?

Luke 10
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

23 Then He turned to His disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see;

24 for I tell you that many prophets and kings have desired to see what you see, and have not seen it, and to hear what you hear, and have not heard it.”

 

[Phil 1:21]

All people have choices, but can they make the right choices?
What if they never hear the gospel? They have no ability to choose anything about Christ if they never hear. How many people lived and died not hearing or seeing?
Jesus tells us we are blessed if we see and hear Him, and that it is His choice to will if someone will know God and Christ. And if He does not will that they know God, they won't know God and be saved.

Luke 10
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

23 Then He turned to His disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see;

24 for I tell you that many prophets and kings have desired to see what you see, and have not seen it, and to hear what you hear, and have not heard it.”

Sorry. It was a tongue in cheek attempt at a joke regarding predestination. But I do appreciate your response. Thanks.

 

[sdowney717]

Sorry. It was a tongue in cheek attempt at a joke regarding predestination. But I do appreciate your response. Thanks.

Ok, glad to be able to post this anyway.

 

[Butch5]

I tend to believe God doesn't act on people going into heaven or not. Let me explain what I mean here.

In the Bible it talks about how God knows who will go to heaven and who will not. However, I don't think he controls who goes to Heaven and who doesn't. If you look in the Bible in Genesis 3:22, it states: Then the Lord our God said Behold the man has become like one of us to know good and evil.

Jesus was tempted and was without sin that is what makes Him the perfect mediator between man and God. God and Jesus hand-in-hand don't know what sin is, so how could God plan to save certain people and others He casts into Hell? I believe it is our choice to follow God and accept the Holy Spirit into our lives but I do not think that He believes that any one person is going to Hell or Heaven.

To make matters less confusing, let me put it this way. God knows who will go to Heaven and Hell, but he doesn't act on who will go to Heaven and Hell. He gives the opportunity to each individual and allows for everyone to follow Him and he leaves the choice up to us whether we want to follow Him or not. If we never accept Him into our lives, then he has nothing to do with us (but still uses them to fulfill his plan) and doesn't claim to be our parent in Christ.

Thoughts?

I believe in the Biblical doctrine of Predestination, but not the Reformed doctrine of Predestination.

 

[RGW00]

I believe in the Biblical doctrine of Predestination, but not the Reformed doctrine of Predestination.

That's interesting, can you explain what the reformed doctrine is? I haven't heard what exactly this is.

 

[Butch5]

That's interesting, can you explain what the reformed doctrine is? I haven't heard what exactly this is.

The Reformed doctrine of Predestination is the idea that God has predestined some to be saved from the foundation of the world. Some hold to a Double Predestination in which some are predestined to be saved and others predestined to destruction.

 

[RGW00]

The Reformed doctrine of Predestination is the idea that God has predestined some to be saved from the foundation of the world. Some hold to a Double Predestination in which some are predestined to be saved and others predestined to destruction.

So how is this different than predestination itself?

 

[Butch5]

So how is this different than predestination itself?

The Biblical doctrine of Predestination has nothing to do with God choosing before the foundation of the world which individuals would and would not be saved. It has to do with promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. God promised that He would make Abraham's seed as the stars of the sky and the sand of the sea. He told Abraham that through him all nations would be blessed.

3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.1
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.1
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.1
9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. (Gen. 17:3-10 KJV)

19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. (Gen. 17:19 KJV)

17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. (Gen. 18:17-19 KJV)

15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;1
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. (Gen. 22:15-18 KJV)

These are a few of the passages where God made promise to Abraham. God predetermined, or predestined that He was going to work through the seed of Abraham. The seed of Abraham is Israel. Israel is the predestined. In Romans 9 Paul said,

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:1
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;1
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (Rom. 9:1-5 KJV)

Paul states plainly that the adoption belongs to Israel. If you look at the passages, in context, that address the subject of predestination, they are about Israel.

 

[JLB777]

'The Father gave Jesus 12 disciples to follow Him on earth.'

Luke 6:13
And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles:

Out of a larger group of Jesus's disciples, Christ chooses 12 disciples to become apostles who have been named in scripture.
You must think he sends the other disciples away from Him?
Matthias was one of Christ's disciples, after Judas, the lot fell to Matthias to become an apostle in Judas' place.

When the other disciples turned away from following Him, Judas remained faithful and continued to believe, while the other disciples did not.

• From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?” 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?” 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:60-69

• we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.

The twelve thrones were for His twelve disciples that were His apostles.

At the time Jesus make this statement, Judas was one of the original twelve, and was destined to sit on one of those thrones with Jesus and the other 11.


28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first. Matthew 28-29

• you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones

This was a reference to His 12, and spoken to His 12 at the time.



JLB

 

[sdowney717]

When the other disciples turned away from following Him, Judas remained faithful and continued to believe, while the other disciples did not.

• From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?” 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?” 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:60-69

• we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.

The twelve thrones were for His twelve disciples that were His apostles.

At the time Jesus make this statement, Judas was one of the original twelve, and was destined to sit on one of those thrones with Jesus and the other 11.


28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first. Matthew 28-29

• you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones

This was a reference to His 12, and spoken to His 12 at the time.



JLB

• you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones

• You who have followed me must have been meant for someone other than Judas.

• Otherwise, if you keep saying that included Judas, then you are saying Christ lied.
• Or you are saying Christ did not know all men or Judas, which is another lie.
• Since Judas was predestined to be the betrayer, and Christ certainly knew that!
• And God cannot lie, but men certainly do lie as does Satan.

 

[HighCherub]

'Double predestination' is an error among a small amount of Protestants in taking predestination theology further than what the Reformers taught. It fundamentally posits that man didn't become wicked of their own accord but rather were created in that way.

 

[Butch5]

'Double predestination' is an error among a small amount of Protestants in taking predestination theology further than what the Reformers taught. It fundamentally posits that man didn't become wicked of their own accord but rather were created in that way.

Calvin taught Double Predestination and he was one of the Reformers.

 

[JLB777]

• you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones

• You who have followed me must have been meant for someone other than Judas.

• Otherwise, if you keep saying that included Judas, then you are saying Christ lied.
• Or you are saying Christ did not know all men or Judas, which is another lie.
• Since Judas was predestined to be the betrayer, and Christ certainly knew that!
• And God cannot lie, but men certainly do lie as does Satan.

You who have followed me must have been meant for someone other than Judas.

This statement that Jesus "must" have meant "someone else" and not who He was speaking to, which was His twelve disciples is where you took a left turn into presumption.

Which is why you keep suggesting Jesus lied.

I know He wasn't lying when He spoke those words to His disciples.

The problem was with Judas, who believed for a while, and therefore followed for awhile then became a traitor.

Hopefully you understand that Judas did indeed follow Jesus for over three years as a disciple and an apostle.

It's when he became a traitor that he lost his place of destiny.

Judas is an example we should all take heed to, when we think we stand, lest we fall.


JLB

 

[sdowney717]

This statement that Jesus "must" have meant "someone else" and not who He was speaking to, which was His twelve disciples is where you took a left turn into presumption.

Which is why you keep suggesting Jesus lied.

I know He wasn't lying when He spoke those words to His disciples.

The problem was with Judas, who believed for a while, and therefore followed for awhile then became a traitor.

Hopefully you understand that Judas did indeed follow Jesus for over three years as a disciple and an apostle.

It's when he became a traitor that he lost his place of destiny.

Judas is an example we should all take heed to, when we think we stand, lest we fall.


JLB

You keep twisting my words, I am not saying Jesus lied, you are!

By your saying Jesus was saying Judas would sit on a throne as a judge.

Jesus separated out Judas from the other 11
John 13:18
[ Jesus Identifies His Betrayer ] “I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’

Jesus never meant Judas would sit on a throne. 'You who have followed me' refers to an entire larger group of disciples, of which Matthias would be replacing Judas.

 

[JLB777]

You keep twisting my words, I am not saying Jesus lied, you are!

By your saying Jesus was saying Judas would sit on a throne as a judge.

Jesus separated out Judas from the other 11
John 13:18
[ Jesus Identifies His Betrayer ] “I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’

Jesus never meant Judas would sit on a throne. 'You who have followed me' refers to an entire larger group of disciples, of which Matthias would be replacing Judas.

But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”


You are the one twisting the Bible, and claiming that Jesus lied.

Jesus said the words to His twelve disciples.

Not "some other" disciples but to His twelve disciples.

He referred to twelve thrones for His twelve disciples, showing that Judas always had a choice.

He had a choice to hear His voice and follow Him, like the others.

He also had a choice whether to betray Him as well.

Judas was destined to reign and rule with Jesus just as the other 11.

Judas chose to betray.

We ourselves have a choice to believe and obey the Gospel, to be saved.

We have a choice to continue to believe and obey Jesus our Lord throughout this life, whether to obey His commandments and abide in Him or to depart from Him.

We have the choice whether to obey the sin that dwells in our flesh or the righteousness and truth that dwells in our heart that is from the Spirit of Christ.

28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Matthew 19:28

Those who are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God.


JLB

 

[PeaceB]

Do I have a choice?

I don't think the Calvinists would deny that you have a choice. They would say that you have a choice, but that you would always choose evil because your nature was totally corrupted by Adam's fall.