Do you believe in Once Saved, Always Saved?

FaithOfSaints

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To be saved is an event which includes the whole of our life in one moment of salvation. That moment changes both the future and the past, and yokes us in our walk with the True and Living Messiah. If our life does not evidence great works and persecutions then something is wrong. We should not be afraid to examine ourselves and honestly say "perhaps I am not saved". This is not judgmental. I ask it of myself often. I believe that prophets doubt it at times, due to the sometimes difficult things that we are required to believe in a truly revelatory life. I can assure you it is possible to ask the Father directly whether you are saved and hear His voice either directly or in life-circumstances. The difficulty is that satan has set up many forms of counterfeit, so that we must also somehow fathom if the voice we hear is the True Father or one of satans angels, or satan himself.
 
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Albion

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To be saved is an event which includes the whole of our life in one moment of salvation. That moment changes both the future and the past, and yokes us in our walk with the True and Living Messiah. If our life does not evidence great works and persecutions then something is wrong. We should not be afraid to examine ourselves and honestly say "perhaps I am not saved". This is not judgmental. I ask it of myself often. I believe that prophets doubt it at times, due to the sometimes difficult things that we are required to believe in a truly revelatory life. I can assure you it is possible to ask the Father directly whether you are saved and hear His voice either directly or in life-circumstances. The difficulty is that satan has set up many forms of counterfeit, so that we must also somehow fathom if the voice we hear is the True Father or one of satans angels, or satan himself.

The thread's about the Eternal Security of the Believer (OSAS), though.

And I don't know why it would be on the Apostolic Succession forum in the first place. :)
 
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Simon_Templar

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That seems to be yet another one of many misperceptions held by those who regularly blast OSAS and Election. If these teachings were actually what they are made out to be by opponents here, I'd be against them, too.:D

There is a difference between OSAS and Perseverance.

OSAS is held by a lot of protestants who are not Reformed in theology. In Reformed theology, Perseverance is predicated upon Election and assumes sanctification.

There are a lot of people who believe and teach OSAS without believing in election, and without requiring sanctification.

For example, there are a lot of non-denominational types who hold a "decision-theology" in which salvation is the result of your decision to accept Jesus Christ as your savior, who do not believe in predestination, and who believe that once you make the decision to accept Jesus, you can not go to hell no matter how you live.

I think those are of Calvinist/Reformed persuasion often assume OSAS is just perseverance of the saints, but OSAS is held by a lot of people who reject other key aspects of TULIP and Reformed theology.

Just as an example, I know a local pastor who taught and believed that once a person made the decision to accept Jesus, they could literally turn into Hitler (his own words) and they would still be saved.

His reasoning was that God's love was so great that he basically used a person's decision to accept Jesus as a loophole to save them. He loves people so much that even if they became a serial murderer and even if they then denied Christ, God's love would not allow him to condemn them.

This kind of thinking is also at the core of the book "The Shack" although that book could be argued to verge on universalism, while the pastor I mentioned above was not a universalist. He believed that the initial decision to accept Jesus was necessary.

another type of people who hold OSAS but are not Calvinist/Reformed, interpret the idea that Christians are not under law to mean that there is no longer any law or sin. In other words, nothing is sin anymore. I've heard some in this camp use slogans like "your not free from sin until your free to sin" and so on. People in this group would not teach hedonism, or recommend that people go sin, but they would say that teaching or thinking about avoiding sin etc, is a negative because it is "sin consciousness" and they would basically say that any church or even any Christian who talks about the necessity of trying to avoid sin is teaching "works salvation".
 
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Albion

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There is a difference between OSAS and Perseverance.

OSAS is held by a lot of protestants who are not Reformed in theology. In Reformed theology, Perseverance is predicated upon Election and assumes sanctification.

There are a lot of people who believe and teach OSAS without believing in election, and without requiring sanctification.
That's true. I usually gets lost in these discussions, but it's true.

For example, there are a lot of non-denominational types who hold a "decision-theology" in which salvation is the result of your decision to accept Jesus Christ as your savior, who do not believe in predestination, and who believe that once you make the decision to accept Jesus, you can not go to hell no matter how you live.
But is this not a recognized or coherent theological POV. I'd call it just another example of folk beliefs gone screwy, like Catholics who affirm all the doctrines that their church teaches them but somehow think that when they die, they won't go to Purgatory because "I've been good."

I think those are of Calvinist/Reformed persuasion often assume OSAS is just perseverance of the saints, but OSAS is held by a lot of people who reject other key aspects of TULIP and Reformed theology.
I don't see how the existence of ignorant or poorly-informed people disproves or even challenges Reformed theology. These people exist, of course, but does that prove something about Calvinism or OSAS? A recent survey of American Catholics showed that 2/3 of them reject not only Transubstantiation but the Real Presence as well.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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<snip>And I don't know why it would be on the Apostolic Succession forum in the first place. :)

May be that the OP wants response only from A. S. Church members; if this were posted in GT, it would have been almost all protestants responding, and a peeing match would ensue.;):D^_^
 
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Simon_Templar

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But is this not a recognized or coherent theological POV. I'd call it just another example of folk beliefs gone screwy, like Catholics who affirm all the doctrines that their church teaches them but somehow think that when they die, they won't go to Purgatory because "I've been good."

I wouldn't disagree with this. I would say that this is actually the distinction between OSAS and Perseverance of the Saints. The latter is a specific, recognized, coherent doctrinal element from a systematic theology. The former is a broad term which could include the former, but is also used by people who do not have coherent, systematic theology.

I don't see how the existence of ignorant or poorly-informed people disproves or even challenges Reformed theology. These people exist, of course, but does that prove something about Calvinism or OSAS? A recent survey of American Catholics showed that 2/3 of them reject not only Transubstantiation but the Real Presence as well.

I didn't intend to suggest that any of those views were an indictment of Reformed theology. Rather my point is that they are NOT Reformed in theology and therefore their version of OSAS is different from the Reformed doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints.

Part of the disconnect in our view points probably has to do with our difference of background. I grew up in a section of the church that basically had no systematic theology and no clear or coherent doctrinal statements. The kind of churches I grew up in just had collections of different doctrines which didn't always coherently fit together.

As a result it was not unusual to find individual churches that were not Reformed, but yet held maybe one or two twisted versions of some Reformed doctrine, like OSAS.
 
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Albion

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I wouldn't disagree with this. I would say that this is actually the distinction between OSAS and Perseverance of the Saints. The latter is a specific, recognized, coherent doctrinal element from a systematic theology. The former is a broad term which could include the former, but is also used by people who do not have coherent, systematic theology.
To be sure, I don't like using the OSAS term, but it's handy and the opponents at least know what you're talking about.

I didn't intend to suggest that any of those views were an indictment of Reformed theology. Rather my point is that they are NOT Reformed in theology and therefore their version of OSAS is different from the Reformed doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints.
Right. I understood that. However, I wondered what profit there is in chronicling the misapprehensions of whatever group of people it is.

Part of the disconnect in our view points probably has to do with our difference of background. I grew up in a section of the church that basically had no systematic theology and no clear or coherent doctrinal statements. The kind of churches I grew up in just had collections of different doctrines which didn't always coherently fit together.

As a result it was not unusual to find individual churches that were not Reformed, but yet held maybe one or two twisted versions of some Reformed doctrine, like OSAS.

Yes, I understand. Alas, I guess I don't appreciate why we should be giving any church due credit for that when we're discussing Calvinism, Arminianism, Catholicism, or whatever. I don't mean to savage them, but surely we aren't obligated to call their twisted versions an alternate form of Calvinism or something along those lines.
 
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Doctor Strangelove

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"Just as an example, I know a local pastor who taught and believed that once a person made the decision to accept Jesus, they could literally turn into Hitler (his own words) and they would still be saved."

That's just sick. Someone who is really saved would not want to be anything like Hitler. And what about that verse that says that murderers don't have eternal life? - I'm too lazy to look the verse up. One odd thing I have noticed is that fundamentalist preachers who are very legalistic about the conduct of Christians - you better never dance or drink a beer or play a card game - often teach OSAS.
 
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H

HereIstand.Todd

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Catholics believe that (1) they have been saved - baptism (2) after baptism they are being saved (3) after death - will be saved.

I think the saved and always saved was introduced by Martin Luther; he had to establish a doctrine different from the church he was breaking away from - the RCC. So, he established the doctrine of saved of faith; once saved always saved - created by man. And, the man has a name.

Revelations 22:12 "Listen!" says Jesus. "I am coming soon! I will bring my rewards with me, to give to each one according to what he has done."

If you believe that Jesus is God, will you dare argue with Jesus? Did you know that Mr Luther wanted to discard the book of Revelation from his version of the bible? Luther was ultimately persuaded by his friends to retain it.

xTx [Learnt this at a Catholic camp]

I think it was John Calvin and not Martin Luther as Lutherans really don't hold to that. Its more of a reformed and Presbyterian thing.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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From the perspective of- if one finishes the race and endures to the end the prize will not be taken away- sure! Of course, I'm fairly certain this is not what is meant by OSAS. :)

Quite so, because one can falter and drop out of the race before it's complete.:)
 
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Albion

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What sticks in my mind is the thought that if we can lose our salvation, we are in charge again...and if we can rationalize that, there's no reason to think that it's not on our shoulders to find God in the first place. If God is in charge, as I'm persuaded he must be, neither of those seems right, especially when we get serious about both of them and acknowledge that we humans are pretty incompetent.
 
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Rhamiel

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I think it was John Calvin and not Martin Luther as Lutherans really don't hold to that. Its more of a reformed and Presbyterian thing.

I have even heard it said that Luther did not believe in "Once Saved Always Saved" because of his writings about backsliders
OSAS was a Calvinist theology that evolved over time

I am not an expert on Protestant theology, but this is just what I was told
 
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RileyG

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You are correct.:)

I don't think modern Presbyterians believe in OSAS either. The early calvinists did believe in pre-destination, although I don't know think anyone believes that anymore. Mainly, the evangelical are the ones that believe OSAS.
 
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Bill McEnaney

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Lutherans do NOT believe in OSAS, but of course there are many Protestants who do.
OSAS is a Calvinist idea, I think. For me, it's a version of a heresy called "Antinomianism," a belief that Christians don't need to obey the commandments. Maybe Calvin would have reconsidered his opinion had he read a first or second-century document called The Didache and The Teaching of the Apostles. In Chapter 16, I think, it talks about people who'll lose their faith and be damned.
 
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Albion

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OSAS is a Calvinist idea, I think. For me, it's a version of a heresy called "Antinomianism," a belief that Christians don't need to obey the commandments.
By prefacing your comment with "For me," I can't say that you said anything in error, but Eternal Security ("OSAS") certainly is not Antinomianism (the rejection of standards altogether) and certainly not a rejection of obedience to the Ten Commandments. Whoever told you anything like either of those grossly misled you.

You are correct, however, that OSAS is most often associated with Calvin, although he is not the only one to have emphasized the point. But if it is Calvin that we are to consider, keep in mind that OSAS is only the last part of a famous proposition about salvation that is often described by the letters T-U-L-I-P. It is not possible to speak correctly about Calvinistic OSAS without taking the whole proposition into consideration.

Maybe Calvin would have reconsidered his opinion had he read a first or second-century document called The Didache and The Teaching of the Apostles. In Chapter 16, I think, it talks about people who'll lose their faith and be damned.
Probably not. The Didache is a document from the second century that is valuable for showing us the mind of the Christian church at that point in history. It's not revelation. Calvin no doubt was more concerned with even older--and more authoritative--writings, most notably the books of the Bible.
 
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Bill McEnaney

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By prefacing your comment with "For me," I can't say that you said anything in error, but Eternal Security ("OSAS") certainly is not Antinomianism (the rejection of standards altogether) and certainly not a rejection of obedience to the Ten Commandments. Whoever told you anything like either of those grossly misled you.

You are correct, however, that OSAS is most often associated with Calvin, although he is not the only one to have emphasized the point. But if it is Calvin that we are to consider, keep in mind that OSAS is only the last part of a famous proposition about salvation that is often described by the letters T-U-L-I-P. It is not possible to speak correctly about Calvinistic OSAS without taking the whole proposition into consideration.


Probably not. The Didache is a document from the second century that is valuable for showing us the mind of the Christian church at that point in history. It's not revelation. Calvin no doubt was more concerned with even older--and more authoritative--writings, most notably the books of the Bible.

Albion, thank you for the correction. But even if you're right about Antinomianism, it clearly implies what I've just said, or you're talking about another kind of Antinomianism. Please read the first paragraph of this article.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Antinomianism

I know that the Didache isn't a divinely revealed document, and I didn't intend to hint that it was one. But like other Patristic writings, it tells us what many ancient Christians believe and supplies historical context to help us interpret Holy Scripture. I study ancient Christian writings partly because the ancients lived in or near or Lord's day, especially St. Polycarp who knew St. John the Apostle. Who's more likely to comprehend the Bible, someone who lived then or me when I have no background information to help me interpret it? I think the right answer should be evident to anyone who comprehends the question.

Since you're an intelligent, educated man, you know the difference between a misinterpretation of a Bible passage and what the writer meant by that passage. If I misinterpret one, my interpretation isn't divinely revealed either. Many people tell me that this or that Catholic doctrine is unscriptural. But for them to know that, they need to know what it is the sacred authors meant by the passage or passages Catholic doctrine at least seemingly contradicts. That knowledge is hard for anyone to get when he proof-texts and quotes passages out of context. Sometimes the context includes more than the surrounding words, surrounding, verses, surrounding paragraphs, surrounding chapters . . ..

Years ago, when I e-mailed with Michael Scheiffler, a Seventh-Day Adventists who keeps up a website called the "Bible Light Homepage," where he criticizes Catholicism and the Catholic Church. Since Seventh-Day Adventists believe in soul sleep, I quoted St. Justin Martyr's First Apology CHURCH FATHERS: The First Apology (St. Justin Martyr) to show that St. Justin thought disembodied souls remained conscious after their owners died.. Mr. Sheiffler replied with something like, "That doesn't matter. We have the Bible."

St. Justin writes:

For reflect upon the end of each of the preceding kings, how they died the death common to all, which, if it issued in insensibility, would be a godsend to all the wicked. But since sensation remains to all who have ever lived, and eternal punishment is laid up (i.e., for the wicked), see that you neglect not to be convinced, and to hold as your belief, that these things are true. For let even necromancy, and the divinations you practise by immaculate children, and the evoking of departed human souls, and those who are called among the magi, Dream-senders and Assistant-spirits (Familiars), and all that is done by those who are skilled in such matters &#8212; let these persuade you that even after death souls are in a state of sensation; and those who are seized and cast about by the spirits of the dead, whom all call dæmoniacs or madmen; and what you repute as oracles, both of Amphilochus, Dodana, Pytho, and as many other such as exist; and the opinions of your authors, Empedocles and Pythagoras, Plato and Socrates, and the pit of Homer, and the descent of Ulysses to inspect these things, and all that has been uttered of a like kind. Such favour as you grant to these, grant also to us, who not less but more firmly than they believe in God; since we expect to receive again our own bodies, though they be dead and cast into the earth, for we maintain that with God nothing is impossible.



Months ago, when I still corresponded online with some scientistic atheists, they insulted Catholics, the Catholic Church, medievals, and others for what many believed about science hundreds of years ago. My scientistic conversation-partners looked down on "scientifically uneducated fools who believed in a mythical divine Santa Claus."

I asked them to imagine what scientists will think of our science 2,000 years from now. Even if those scientists discover that most 21st-scientific theories are true, to them, the history of our science will still be ancient history. So to interpret it accurately, they'll need plenty of context besides the context in the reports, journal articles, and so on that they'll read if those documents survive. A secular "sola scriptura" won't help those scientists much more than St. Justin's thought helped Mr. Scheiffler when he dismissed it.

I'm not criticizing anyone here, God knows I make lots of mistakes when I interpret the Bible. I just hope you and others here pay attention to the kinds of context I mean. If you read some articles Mr. Scheiffler, you'll know that many of them are mostly lists of proof-texts.

Michael Scheifler's BIBLE LIGHT HOMEPAGE

Considering what Calvin believed about predestination and free will, I'd expect him to believe OSAS.
 
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