Do You Believe In Fate?

[renniks]

Explain to me what is wrong with this construction: Whatever actually happens is the only thing that can happen, as history shows. There is no possibility for anything else, then, to happen in the future, but whatever WILL in fact happen.

How do you know this?

 

[Mark Quayle]

How do you know this?

Because it is all we have to go on. History shows no other. If you are given the choice of two doorways, you don't choose both and smack your face on the doorpost between them. You can only go through one at a time.

Science depends on this kind of extrapolation —"This is what we have consistently seen; this then is what we can count on."

(Admittedly, God can make it otherwise, then change it to what we think we have experienced, and we would be none the wiser. But there is no reason to suppose he does. And the speculation does not make the point moot.)

 

[renniks]

Because it is all we have to go on. History shows no other. If you are given the choice of two doorways, you don't choose both and smack your face on the doorpost between them. You can only go through one at a time.

Science depends on this kind of extrapolation —"This is what we have consistently seen; this then is what we can count on."

Lol, so because something happened in the past it was the only thing that could happen? How do you figure that?

 

[renniks]

Because it is all we have to go on. History shows no other. If you are given the choice of two doorways, you don't choose both and smack your face on the doorpost between them. You can only go through one at a time.

So? You still had more than one option.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Lol, so because something happened in the past it was the only thing that could happen? How do you figure that?

How do you figure it could have gone any other way? After all, cause and effect is pervasive, no? The fact that we all choose, and that, of our own choice, will, and desires, doesn't change the fact that our will, desires, minds, etc etc are all caused.

Or can you demonstrate the logic behind the notion that mere chance can determine outcomes?

 

[renniks]

How do you figure it could have gone any other way? After all, cause and effect is pervasive, no? The fact that we all choose, and that, of our own choice, will, and desires, doesn't change the fact that our will, desires, minds, etc etc are all caused.

Or can you demonstrate the logic behind the notion that mere chance can determine outcomes?

Everything is caused and we are causes. I don't believe that everything I think and do is caused by God. That makes God a sinner. We choose everything, even what to think on. To claim there's only one option in every situation is fatalism.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Everything is caused and we are causes. I don't believe that everything I think and do is caused by God. That makes God a sinner. We choose everything, even what to think on. To claim there's only one option in every situation is fatalism.

It is faulty logic to say that 'God causes everything' makes God a sinner.

But to use the terminology "there is only one option" is a bit off. If I said that, I apologize. The choice is real, the options are on the table, but you will only ever choose one of them. Therefore, there is only one that ever can happen. That one is determined by whatever causes came before it, since all effects are caused.

You will agree, I think, that God is First Cause. To admit any other independent, uncaused, cause, is to logically deny he is First Cause, since first cause necessarily implies no dependence on or obligation to causes (principles) from outside himself. (Therefore, no such thing as causation by mere chance/ randomness (which notion is self-contradictory anyway).)

 

[renniks]

But to use the terminology "there is only one option" is a bit off. If I said that, I apologize. The choice is real, the options are on the table, but you will only ever choose one of them. Therefore, there is only one that ever can happen. That one is determined by whatever

Whatever? Why would I believe it was determined? It's circular logic. I only choose one so that's the only one I can choose? That's doesn't make sense.

 

[renniks]

It is faulty logic to say that 'God causes everything' makes God a sinner.

No, it's simply true. If he only ultimately causes sin, he's logically the only real sinner. Only scripture tells us just the opposite, that God is light and there is no darkness at all in him. So, he can not be the cause of sin.

 

[renniks]

You will agree, I think, that God is First Cause. To admit any other independent, uncaused, cause, is to logically deny he is First Cause,

No. That's nonsense. If I give birth to someone that doesn't mean I have to cause thier every action. Freewill is real.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Whatever? Why would I believe it was determined? It's circular logic. I only choose one so that's the only one I can choose? That's doesn't make sense.

The original claim I made was tongue-in-cheek. I use it mostly to point fun at the way humanity thinks, as though they are the ones who determine the course of their lives, and in fact, even sometimes, the course of their circumstances.

No. That's nonsense. If I give birth to someone that doesn't mean I have to cause thier every action. Freewill is real.

What does giving birth have to do with this? You didn't create anything. But I expect what you are trying to get at is that the particulars are not caused, but somehow happen uncaused. Cause-and-effect does not allow for that. EVERY effect is caused, down to the finest detail. Furthermore, chance is the only mental alternative to causation, yet to invoke chance as determinative is self-contradictory. Chance can DO nothing.

But if you can show me what does cause your decisions, without the causes having descended inexorably, in every particular, from first cause, or how anything happens uncaused, I might see a way out of the original claim I made.

 

[Mark Quayle]

No, it's simply true. If he only ultimately causes sin, he's logically the only real sinner. Only scripture tells us just the opposite, that God is light and there is no darkness at all in him. So, he can not be the cause of sin.

He does not only cause sin. Where do you come up with that?

WE are the ones who choose to sin. And we do so willfully. God caused that sin be. Nothing happens apart from causation, he being First Cause. God did not sin by causing that sin be.

I think that we've been through this before, a few times, you and I. It doesn't end well, smh. To me, your insistence on self-determination is revealing. To you, I blame God for my faults. But if you wish to continue with this, do so. But Logically, and Scripturally, you cannot defeat the Law of Causation.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Lol, so because something happened in the past it was the only thing that could happen? How do you figure that?

So? You still had more than one option.

Whatever? Why would I believe it was determined? It's circular logic. I only choose one so that's the only one I can choose? That's doesn't make sense.

Not circular. Evidentiary.

The possibility as to which you will choose remains unknown by you. Both/all have the same appearance of probability. Yet, inexorably, you will choose only one. Both/all were available to you to choose from. But history shows you can choose only one. The fact that we don't previously know which, has no bearing on which one you will choose. Causation does. Otherwise, it is "up to chance", which is logically shown to be non-causative by definition.

 

[renniks]

But if you can show me what does cause your decisions,

I do. You really don't understand free will?

 

[renniks]

Causation does. Otherwise, it is "up to chance", which is logically shown to be non-causative by definition.

What is causation? Is it like the force in star wars? Because I see nothing in scripture about this phantom cause of everything.
Again we are causes. There are millions of us little causes running around on this planet. You can not deny that the world is chaotic because of people's random choices.

 

[jamiec]

No, I believe in Divine Providence, by which God’s Wisdom is described as “reach[ing] mightily from one end of the earth to the other, and she orders all things well”.

All creatures, in all respects, are totally governed by Providence. I believe that all events, including choices, are foreordained by Providence, so that nothing whatever comes about outside God’s Providence. And precisely because God is in total control of each & every creature, creaturely freedom, and causation by creatures, are both possible & real.

 

[Mark Quayle]

What is causation? Is it like the force in star wars? Because I see nothing in scripture about this phantom cause of everything.

No. It is a principle upon which reason and science depend. No doubt you've heard of the term, "the chain of cause-and-effect".

Again we are causes. There are millions of us little causes running around on this planet.

Nobody says we are not causes. Where do you keep coming up with stuff like this? Of course we are causes! We are also effects, of precedent causes. But we are NOT millions of little first causes running about on this planet. We are caused, and what we do is caused, and what we decide is caused.

You can not deny that the world is chaotic because of people's random choices.

Of course I can deny "that the world is chaotic because of people's random choices.", and easily so! First off, there is no such thing as causation by chance —the notion is self-contradictory. So also "chaotic" and "random" are like 'chance', our places holder for "I don't know". Chaos, in Biblical references does not mean God has no control, but that things appear disorganized. 'Random' means only that we don't know, or couldn't have predicted, the cause.

You are using words that at best are figures of speech, to mean some actual fact. People do not have random choices. Yes, things appear chaotic to us, and that, because of people's choices. That doesn't mean things ARE chaotic because of people's random choices. You speak as if God did not plan every detail, down to the existence and slightest motion of every particle. They are all caused effects, though they too are causes of further effects.

Apart from the bogus notion of chance causing anything, God is not God, if there exists some principle from outside his causation, to which he is subject. God is not God, if he is subject to chance. And to protest that Chance is also one of God's tools or inventions, is as meaningless and self-contradictory as to say that anything happens by chance.

 

[renniks]

Apart from the bogus notion of chance causing anything, God is not God, if there exists some principle from outside his causation, to which he is subject. God is not God, if he is subject to chance. And to protest that Chance is also one of God's tools or inventions, is as meaningless and self-contradictory as to say that anything happens by chance.

I think you want free will to be eliminated so that people can't be responsible for evil. That's the final conclusion of believing that God causes everything. God becomes ying and yang, good and evil, light and dark. That is not biblical. A being with no darkness in him can not cause everything, including all our evil choices in any way.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I think you want free will to be eliminated so that people can't be responsible for evil. That's the final conclusion of believing that God causes everything. God becomes ying and yang, good and evil, light and dark. That is not biblical. A being with no darkness in him can not cause everything, including all our evil choices in any way.

(I assume you mean logical conclusion): That is NOT the final logical conclusion of God causing everything. The final conclusion of God causing everything is that God gets the Dwelling Place he made us for, and that God gets all the credit for this amazing accomplishment of his. WHY would I want people to not be responsible for evil?

You are amazing. How many times have we been through this? After all this time, you should KNOW I believe in eye for eye, tooth for tooth, and the balance of God's justice. Either every sinner pays for his own sins, or Christ pays that debt for those God chose, those upon whom God has shown mercy. I have not even begun to try to eliminate the responsible will of the moral agent. You KNOW my claim, that God's justice is precise and thorough!

Your logic is based on the firm foundation of CHANCE! That is your worldview, or worse, you are claiming (contrary to Scripture) that some people are in and of themselves better than others, and so by the able integrity of these better people, they —though fallen and dead in sin, slaves to sin, enemies of God, unable to submit to God's law, hating God— they are able in and of themselves to obey God and to decide to choose God's way, somehow separated from causation.

 

[renniks]

Only, logically, in your system, God chose those sins for that person. So God is actually the only one sinning.

Either every sinner pays for his own sins, or Christ pays that debt for those God chose, those upon whom God has shown mercy.