Do you believe in Creationism or Evolutionism?

[BobRyan]

The Bible doesn't say that there was no suffering before the fall.

Gen 1:31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good

Rom 8:
. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Corruption: Strong's G5356 - phthora

1. corruption, destruction, perishing
   
   1. that which is subject to corruption, what is perishable
   2. in the Christian sense, eternal misery in hell
2. in the NT, in an ethical sense, corruption i.e. moral decay

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Gen 2:
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.


4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were create

Simple statements without any solid Biblical or scientific support are nothing but empty words.

 

[David Lamb]

Simple statements without any solid Biblical or scientific support are nothing but empty words.

But you were replying to a post which consisted only of verses from the bible!

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Those that want to mock the Bible will sometimes try to get it to say the world is flat, as part of their pro-evolutionism POV that discredits the accuracy of the Bible and lowers trust in the apparent reading of it.

Josh 6:5 has an unambiguous statement about something explicitly being "flat"

5 It shall be that when they make a long blast with the ram’s horn, and when you hear the sound of the trumpet, all the people shall shout with a great shout; and the wall of the city will fall down flat, and the people will go up every man straight ahead.”​

Sadly for such a POV , no such case is found in the Bible where that word is used to describe Earth's shape.

wh;ich means it is not accurate to try and discredit the Bible's description of the seven day creation week, as if the Bible "account" of something is not accurate

Gen 2:4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created




The Bible says the 7 days at Sinai are the same as the 7 days in Gen 1-.

But belief in evolutionism says "those are days that did not happen, what actually happened is whatever belief in evolutionism would teach"

There is a very big difference between what the Bible actually says and the many different ways that it has been interpreted by the readers of it—and Genesis 1-11 is not an exception to this basic fact. Indeed, we read in the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture: Old Testament, Volume I, Genesis 1-11 edited by Andrew Louth and published in 2001 by InterVarsity Press very numerous interpretations of Genesis 1-11 by the early Fathers of the Church. They did not mock the Bible—they loved it and invested their lives in the study and teaching of it! As for the Bible’s teaching on the shape of the earth, both the Old and New Testament writers expressly taught that the earth is flat. The Old Testament writers described the earth as being flat and covered with a strong, solid dome.

The Hebrew Masoretic text of Genesis 1:6-8 expressly describes the creation of a flat earth covered with a dome that “separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome.”

1:6 ויאמר אלהים יהי רקיע בתוך המים ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים׃

1:7 ויעשׂ אלהים את־הרקיע ויבדל בין המים אשׁר מתחת לרקיע ובין המים אשׁר מעל לרקיע ויהי־כן׃

1:8 ויקרא אלהים לרקיע שׁמים ויהי־ערב ויהי־בקר יום שׁני׃

The Septuagint also expressly describes the creation of a flat earth covered with a dome that “separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome.”

Gen 1:6 Καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεός Γενηθήτω στερέωμα ἐν μέσῳ τοῦ ὕδατος καὶ ἔστω διαχωρίζον ἀνὰ μέσον ὕδατος καὶ ὕδατος. καὶ ἐγένετο οὕτως.
Gen 1:7 καὶ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸ στερέωμα, καὶ διεχώρισεν ὁ θεὸς ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ὕδατος, ὃ ἦν ὑποκάτω τοῦ στερεώματος, καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ὕδατος τοῦ ἐπάνω τοῦ στερεώματος.
Gen 1:8 καὶ ἐκάλεσεν ὁ θεὸς τὸ στερέωμα οὐρανόν. καὶ εἶδεν ὁ θεὸς ὅτι καλόν. καὶ ἐγένετο ἑσπέρα καὶ ἐγένετο πρωί, ἡμέρα δευτέρα.

Genesis 1:6. And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
7. So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so.
8. God called the dome Sky. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day. (NRSV)

Genesis 1:6. And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. (KJV)

The KJV correctly translates the Hebrew word רָקִיעַ (râqı̂ya‛) as “firmament”, but most modern readers of the KJV are unaware of the meaning of the word “firmament,” and do not realize that it came down to us from the Latin present active infinitive (firmāre) of the Latin verb firmō, meaning “I make firm, strengthen, harden, or fortify” and that it expresses the concept of the strong, solid dome that supported the water above the dome.

Matt. 4:8. Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor;
9. and he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.”
10. Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! for it is written,
‘Worship the Lord your God,
and serve only him.' "

This could be true ONLY if the earth is flat! Matthew, being a Jew, believed as did the Jewish Rabbis at the time (and for the next seven centuries). Luke, however, was a Gentile and had a very good Greek education (he was a physician). Therefore he gently corrected Matthew’s obvious error and wrote instead,

Luke 4:5. Then the devil led him up and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world.
6. And the devil said to him, “To you I will give their glory and all this authority; for it has been given over to me, and I give it to anyone I please.
7. If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours.”
8. Jesus answered him, It is written,
‘Worship the Lord your God,
and serve only him.' "


The theory of evolution does not say that the Bible is wrong because the theory of evolution is a matter of science and the Bible is a matter religion.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

But you were replying to a post which consisted only of verses from the bible!

Exactly!

 

[Job 33:6]

Gen 1:31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good

Rom 8:
. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Corruption: Strong's G5356 - phthora

1. corruption, destruction, perishing
   1. that which is subject to corruption, what is perishable
   2. in the Christian sense, eternal misery in hell
2. in the NT, in an ethical sense, corruption i.e. moral decay

"Very good" doesn't mean "perfect". And Genesis isn't Romans. Just because we await the return of Jesus, this doesn't mean that there was no death or suffering before the fall. Creation was subjected to futility, sure, still doesn't mean that there was no death or suffering before the fall. Creation will be set free, sure, but that's not about things of the past, that's about the future. "Will be" set free, in the future.

The fact of the matter is that Genesis never actually states that there was no death or suffering before the fall. As much as fundamentalists wish it were there.

Psalm 104:
Day 1:
Praise the Lord, my soul.
1Lord my God, you are very great;
you are clothed with splendor and majesty.
2a The Lord wraps himself in light as with a garment;

Day 2:
2b he stretches out the heavens like a tent.

Day 3:
He set the earth on its foundations;
it can never be moved.

Day 4:
He made the moon to mark the seasons,
and the sun knows when to go down.

And so the creation Psalm follows:

21The lions roar for their prey
and seek their food from God.

24 How many are your works, Lord!
In wisdom you made them all;
the earth is full of your creatures.

25 There is the sea, vast and spacious,
teeming with creatures beyond number—
living things both large and small.

27 All creatures look to you
to give them their food at the proper time.

28 When you give it to them,
they gather it up;
when you open your hand,
they are satisfied with good things.

29 When you hide your face,
they are terrified;
when you take away their breath,
they die and return to the dust.

31 May the glory of the Lord endure forever;
may the Lord rejoice in his works—

These are "very good", may the Lord rejoice in his works. And yet, as we can see, there is death and suffering. And that's in the Old Testament. And no, it is not a post-fall psalm.

 

[BobRyan]

"Very good" doesn't mean "perfect".

In context my comment was in response to the claim that there was sickness, death etc before the fall of man. (which is supposedly the main feature enabling advancement for those believing in evolutionism over Biblical creationism)

Animals eat plants in Gen 1. Not much of a help for believers in evolutionism.
Creation suffers because of Adam's sin (rather than as the vehicle for creation/evolution) in Rom 8.

And Genesis isn't Romans.

Both are "inspired by God and to be used for doctrine and correction" 2 Tim 3:16

Just because we await the return of Jesus, this doesn't mean that there was no death or suffering before the fall.

The text of Rom 5 and Rom 8 says that the suffering we see in nature did not occur until sin entered the world with Adam's sin

Creation was subjected to futility, sure, still doesn't mean that there was no death or suffering

that word in Greek means corruption, decay, death. That is why I quoted Rom 8. It points out the origins of it.

The fact of the matter is that Genesis never actually states that there was no death or suffering before the fall.

Genesis does not tell us that "the Gospel was preached to Abraham" but Gal 3:8 does tell us that.

ALL scripture given by inspiration from God 2 Tim 3:16

As much as fundamentalists wish it were there.

Psalm 104:
Day 1:
Praise the Lord, my soul.
1Lord my God, you are very great;
you are clothed with splendor and majesty.
2a The Lord wraps himself in light as with a garment;

Day 2:
2b he stretches out the heavens like a tent.

Day 3:
He set the earth on its foundations;
it can never be moved.

Day 4:
He made the moon to mark the seasons,
and the sun knows when to go down.

Ps 104 does not say that on day 3 God sets the Earth on its foundations.

But Gen 1 tells us that on day 3 God made Plants on Earth after having already formatted Earth with Atmosphere and separating oceans from dry land.

 

[BobRyan]

Those that want to mock the Bible will sometimes try to get it to say the world is flat, as part of their pro-evolutionism POV that discredits the accuracy of the Bible and lowers trust in the apparent reading of it.

Josh 6:5 has an unambiguous statement about something explicitly being "flat"

5 It shall be that when they make a long blast with the ram’s horn, and when you hear the sound of the trumpet, all the people shall shout with a great shout; and the wall of the city will fall down flat, and the people will go up every man straight ahead.”​

Sadly for such a POV , no such case is found in the Bible where that word is used to describe Earth's shape.

wh;ich means it is not accurate to try and discredit the Bible's description of the seven day creation week, as if the Bible "account" of something is not accurate

Gen 2:4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created




The Bible says the 7 days at Sinai are the same as the 7 days in Gen 1-.

But belief in evolutionism says "those are days that did not happen, what actually happened is whatever belief in evolutionism would teach"

There is a very big difference between what the Bible actually says and the many different ways that it has been interpreted

sad but true.

Exegesis would help eliminate that problem were people more inclined to pay attention to details

we read in the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture: Old Testament, Volume I, Genesis 1-11 edited by Andrew Louth and published in 2001 by InterVarsity Press

how nice for you.

both the Old and New Testament writers expressly taught that the earth is flat.

interesting speculation on that point given that not one example can be found in either OT or NT for the "world is flat" idea even though "walls fell down flat" In Josh 6:5 " and the wall of the city will fall down flat,"

Clearly they had the words for saying it. But not once do we see in OT or NT "the world is flat"

This is irrefutable.

The Old Testament writers described the earth as being flat and covered with a strong, solid dome.

The Hebrew Masoretic text of Genesis 1:6-8 expressly describes the creation of a flat earth

And yet - not once do we see in OT or NT "the world is flat"

The Septuagint also expressly describes the creation of a flat earth covered with a dome that “separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome.”

Indeed the OT describes water above the atmosphere and below it. And at the flood water comes in from above as well as from below the surface of the Earth.

yet - not once do we see in OT or NT "the world is flat" using the "Flat" concept we find in Josh 6:5

Gen 1:6 Καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεός Γενηθήτω στερέωμα ἐν μέσῳ τοῦ ὕδατος καὶ ἔστω διαχωρίζον ἀνὰ μέσον ὕδατος καὶ ὕδατος. καὶ ἐγένετο οὕτως.
Gen 1:7 καὶ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸ στερέωμα, καὶ διεχώρισεν ὁ θεὸς ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ὕδατος, ὃ ἦν ὑποκάτω τοῦ στερεώματος, καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ὕδατος τοῦ ἐπάνω τοῦ στερεώματος.
Gen 1:8 καὶ ἐκάλεσεν ὁ θεὸς τὸ στερέωμα οὐρανόν. καὶ εἶδεν ὁ θεὸς ὅτι καλόν. καὶ ἐγένετο ἑσπέρα καὶ ἐγένετο πρωί, ἡμέρα δευτέρα.

Great examples of not finding "the Earth was/is flat"

Genesis 1:6. And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
7. So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so.
8. God called the dome Sky. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day. (NRSV)

Genesis 1:6. And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. (KJV)

The issue at this point is not the curved dome atmosphere above Earth. Rather it is the missing statement "the earth was flat"
No "plate of the Earth" no "flat surface of the Earth" etc

The KJV correctly translates the Hebrew word רָקִיעַ (râqı̂ya‛) as “firmament”

Not the issue at hand

, but most modern readers of the KJV are unaware of the meaning of the word “firmament,” and do not realize that it came down to us from the Latin

Genesis, written in Hebrew, did not come to us from Latin.

Moses would not have known Latin from a hole in the ground.

Matt. 4:8. Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor;
9. and he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.”
10. Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! for it is written,
‘Worship the Lord your God,
and serve only him.' "

This could be true ONLY if the earth is flat!

pure speculation.

Satan has more advanced technology than we have AND YET we can to this

"Creating 3D projections that float in the air requires sophisticated digital 3D projection machines. These devices use advanced optics and projection techniques to render images that appear suspended in space."

Having a big sky medium , is helpful. But I am not suggesting that Satan was limited to hologram technology as it is today.

Notice that both God and Satan take someone up to a high location and show them distant objects.

Deut 34:1 Now Moses went up from the plains of Moab to Mount Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, which is opposite Jericho. And the Lord showed him all the land, Gilead as far as Dan, 2 and all Naphtali and the land of Ephraim and Manasseh, and all the land of Judah as far as the western sea, 3 and the Negev and the plain in the valley of Jericho, the city of palm trees, as far as Zoar. 4 Then the Lord said to hi

The theory of evolution does not say that the Bible is wrong because the theory of evolution is a matter of science

That is nonsense.

Genesis says that God created Adam and Eve directly from the dust of the ground. There is no science at all that claims to prove that a being with infinite knowledge and capability cannot do that.

Genesis claims a fully formed mature biosphere (Earth) was supernaturally created by God in a span of 7 literal days.

There no science at all that makes the point that a being with infinite knowledge and capability cannot do that.

And we all know it.

You are overstating your case.

and the Bible is a matter religion.

True it is a matter of religion.

The Bible makes the case that God is able to accurately state facts of what He and others did in real history.

We all agree that atheists make the claim that God does not exist and so that option is off the table no matter how many times the Bible claims God did that very thing. This is the easy part.

 

[BobRyan]

science and the Bible

1. Job 26:7 – “Earth hangs on nothing “ (instead of a Greek god or turtle holding it up). Mankind did not find out about that for another 1550, so that’s 3000 years later.
2. Lev 15:13 – bathe body in running water. In 1845 A.D. doctors started washing hands between surgeries. Later in running water.
3. Lev 17:11 – life of the flesh is in the blood. – Blood samples taken today to diagnose the condition of the body. Late 1700’s George Washington was bled (40% of his blood removed) as “treatment”
4. Is 40:22 – Circle (Heb. “khoog”) of the Earth (circle/compass, spherical) – 300 years before Aristotle, So then 2300 years after Isaiah 40 – Columbus sailed around the world – a sphere.

It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,​

And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,​

Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain (inflation)​

And spreads them out like a tent to live in.​

1. Job 26:10 He has inscribed a circle on the surface of the waters At the boundary of light and darkness. Geometry dictates this as the result of a plane (light from Sun) intersected by a sphere (Earth)
2. Ps 8:8 “Paths of the sea” – currents. Matthew Maury – 1806 – 1873 Oceanography 2800 years later than Ps 8? Warm and cold continental currents
3. Job 38:35 Light sent out and says “here we are” – light can convey speech. Vs 38 Can you send flashes of lightning, so that they may go
   And say to you, ‘Here we are’? -- (electromagnetic wave communications not invented for 3000 years later)
4. Gen 2:1 “it is finished” creation of Earth completed - - nothing half-done. Deer, Wolves, Eagles.. day 6 of creation week
5. Gen 6:15 – ship dimensions – 1.5 Million cubic foot ark. Ship length = 6x width and also 10x height for a ship that only needs to keep afloat (i.e. would not be powered through the seas via sails)
6. Lev 13:46 Quarantine sick patients – leprosy
7. Job 40:15-24 Behemoth : Tail like a great cedar tree ( Dinosaurs?)

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Exegesis would help eliminate that problem were people more inclined to pay attention to details

The Biblical scholars specializing in the Book of Genesis, and especially Genesis 1-11, pay a huge amount of attention to details. For example, the critically important detail that Genesis 1-11 is written in a genre of literature that is not used anywhere else in the Bible. Indeed, Genesis 11-50 is written primarily in the genre of literature known as the historical narrative—the genre of literature in which a coherent story is told using literal language to tell the reader a series of interrelated facts. Genesis 1-11, on the other hand, is written in a genre of literature in which the focus is on bringing the characters in the story to life using very literal language. We find this genre of literature in epic tales, sagas, myths, and legends. I do not believe that God is a poor, careless writer but rather an excellent, careful writer. But more importantly, He is God and thus He is not limited by the conventions of His readers. He gave us Genesis 1-11 in a genre of literature that His early readers did not confuse with accurate accounts of actual historic events but understood it to express very important spiritual truths clothed in enjoyable to read and teach fictional stories.

The Jews had no interest in science and thought the Greeks to be foolish to believe that the earth was spherical. After all, they had no concept of gravity and the sky as they saw it, especially at night, appeared to them to be a solid dome—and, of course, domes are not used to cover spheres, they are used to cover flat plates or disks.

Most civilizations at that time also conceived the earth as being flat and covered with a solid dome and for the Jews and early Christians it was an observable fact. They knew and wrote that the ark was far too small for all the animals, but they really did not care. The theory of evolution was a thing for scientists to be concerned about, but not for Christians. That is, until 1961 when two very foolish men published a book that ripped up churches, families, and even the minds of individual Christians. This book has caused the gospel to be commingled with young earth creationism and thereby to lose its power to save souls and transform lives.

 

[Aaron112]

The flesh is unable to know or to understand anything apart from YHVH's Spirit.

Nothing is known. Nothing is provable. Knowledge is merely a fancy that is falsely called knowledge.