Do you believe in Creationism or Evolutionism?

[BobRyan]

Unless there are Catholic Sabbatarians I don't know about (Which is certainly possible), most Catholics believe that the Saturday Sabbath was changed to Sunday.

Agreed. But they also teach that the Sabbath commandment is included in the moral law of God -- the TEN Commandments and is written on the heart under the New Covenant.

However, in reality, the truth is that while the calendar day of the Saturday Sabbath has not changed (Matthew 24:20), the command to keep the Saturday Sabbath has ended. For Christ nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us (Colossians 2:14-16).

It was a sin before the cross to "take God's name in vain" and it is still a sin to do it after the cross - because as John reminds us - even in the New Testament "Sin IS transgression of the LAW" and that Law is the one where "the 5th commandment is the first commandment with a promise" still -- Eph 6:1-2

 

[BobRyan]

So then God did not work on the seventh day. It was not a 7 day creation but it was a 6 day creation. He did not create anything on the 7th day.

But he "blessed" and He "sanctified" and thereby made a holy day.. the weekly Sabbath of Ex 20:11 that points directly to Gen 2:1-3

 

[BobRyan]

Thanks to everyone who is participating on this thread - I have been blessed by all the comments both in favor and those discussing alternatives. Be blessed.

 

[BobRyan]

There is also no ten commandments given to Adam in Eden, either.
There is no Scripture verse or passage that says that.

It was a sin to take God's name in vain before Adam fell and afterwards. God tells Cain "sin is crouching at your door" - it was a sin to hate his brother... it was a sin to murder...

"The Sabbath was made for mankind not mankind made for the Sabbath" Mark 2:27 speaks of the making of both - and both are made in Gen 1:3-2:4

As all these Christian groups in my signature line point out - the ten -- all ten were in place from Eden.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Agreed. But they also teach that the Sabbath commandment is included in the moral law of God -- the TEN Commandments and is written on the heart under the New Covenant.

In my experience: Catholics do not agree with Seventh Day Adventists who believe that you must keep the Saturday Sabbath literally.

It was a sin before the cross to "take God's name in vain" and it is still a sin to do it after the cross - because as John reminds us - even in the New Testament "Sin IS transgression of the LAW" and that Law is the one where "the 5th commandment is the first commandment with a promise" still -- Eph 6:1-2

A moral law is any law that a person instinctively knows to do good without God directly commanding that person to keep such laws. So no doubt that the Moral Law existed before Moses even existed. But there are only 9 moral laws in the 10 commandments. The 4th commandment (i.e. keeping the Sabbath) is not a moral law but it is a ceremonial law because you are observing a ceremony and you are not doing good based on man's nature according to Romans 2:14.

Also, there are other moral laws that are not in the 9 out of the ten that God gave to Moses.

 

[Cis.jd]

If you check these posts carefully you will see that almost no one here is claiming that God made the universe or our galaxy in 7 days. For a lot of creationists - the Creation account only deals with our Earth, our Sun, our moon and all life on Earth.

Yes but most creationists, especially in past threads in CF almost always believe in the literal 6 days.

There isn't any Christian who does not believe God created everything, but we also think that evolution is more evidently part of his creation.

When you think about it, how else can God assure that life can survive the every changing ecosystem if their biology doesn't adapt? Evolution is the mechanism that God designed so that the life he created can survive the changing nature of the planet.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

For me: Macro-Evolution does not fit in the Bible. It was invented by Darwin and has no evidence backing it either scientifically or biblically.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It was a sin to take God's name in vain before Adam fell and afterwards. God tells Cain "sin is crouching at your door" - it was a sin to hate his brother... it was a sin to murder...

"The Sabbath was made for mankind not mankind made for the Sabbath" Mark 2:27 speaks of the making of both - and both are made in Gen 1:3-2:4

As all these Christian groups in my signature line point out - the ten -- all ten were in place from Eden.

God making the calendar day on the Sabbath does not mean God was commanding men to keep the Sabbath. There is a difference between the existence of a calendar day (in what it stands for), vs. the command to keep that calendar day. You will not find any words in Scripture saying specifically that God makes a COMMAND for men to keep the Sabbath on Saturday (or the 7th day) before the existence of Moses.

 

[d taylor]

I am a creationist that believes that God created the heavens and earth in Genesis 1:1 in just a spoken word (no 6 days needed). The created earth in Genesis 1:1 was home to Gods created angelic host "or at least satan" as the Bible states satan walked in the garden of God.
What is seen in Genesis 1:3 to 1:31 is the restoration of the earth for human habitation, which God took 6 literal days to complete.

Now for the actual creation according to the Bible. God created heavens and earth. No mention (in the Bible any where) of God creating a universe (or outer space) where the sun, moon and stars are located. Also no mention (in the Bible any where) of God creating planets only the sun, moon and stars.

In Genesis the actual land/earth was a single piece of flat stationary land, (as opposed to a sphere water ball with a piece of land on one side of this sphere).

Above this single piece of land surrounded by water was a raqia that God created to separate waters. Above and below the raqia, in the raqia God placed the sun, moon and stars (lights) to move over the earth to be used as a time piece for to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;

That is my creation belief i believe in, from The Bibles description.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I see the first verse (Genesis 1:1) as a title description summarizing what God is about to do in the next upcoming verses. Genesis 1:2 through Genesis 1:31 as the actual 6 day creation (with those days being literal 24 hour days). It's a literal 24 days because God defines these days with an evening and a morning.

It's like me titling my paper or article as: “How to read the Bible.”

Then I go into detail in the paper as how to do that.

Genesis 1:1 is the title of the paper, and Genesis 1:2 through Genesis 1:31 is the details of that paper. I do not believe God is giving us an account of real time actions when He transitions between Genesis 1:1 to Genesis 1:2. Genesis 1:1 is more of a header title like for a paper or article.

How so?

Well, God's Word does not explain anything about how there are two creations elsewhere.

 

[coffee4u]

Yes, I seem to be of the few here who do.

Back later with details.

 

[The Transcendentian]

is it all just evolutionists here?

Maybe all the creationists have given up debating the evolutionists because the creationists realized that no evolutionist is going to be persuaded to change their beliefs in the slightest by any amount of debating. That's just my theory I don't know for sure.

 

[BobRyan]

I am a creationist that believes that God created the heavens and earth in Genesis 1:1 in just a spoken word (no 6 days needed).

Augustine also thought the Bible was wrong about that and that God's creative ability was much better than a 7 day creation week. But of course God's speaking ability was much better than a 40 day period with Moses on the mountain top - so maybe the Bible got that wrong as well. Then of course infinite God could work the ministry of Christ on Earth in much less time than 3.5 years so maybe the Bible is wrong about that as well. This sort of revision has no end to it from what I can see.

 

[BobRyan]

Maybe all the creationists have given up debating the evolutionists because the creationists realized that no evolutionist is going to be persuaded to change their beliefs in the slightest by any amount of debating. That's just my theory I don't know for sure.

I agree with you that minds are very hard to change on almost any topic that can be named.

But since this forum area is for Creationists - why would they have to abandon their own forum just because somewhere out there evolutionists don't want to change their minds?

 

[BobRyan]

Unless there are Catholic Sabbatarians I don't know about (Which is certainly possible), most Catholics believe that the Saturday Sabbath was changed to Sunday.

Agreed. But they also teach that the Sabbath commandment is included in the moral law of God -- the TEN Commandments and is written on the heart under the New Covenant.

In my experience: Catholics do not agree with Seventh Day Adventists who believe that you must keep the Saturday Sabbath literally.

On the contrary they teach that the Sabbath as given in the Bible is Saturday and is what was kept in the Bible according to God's Word - as it should be. They claim it was later edited by the traditions of the church to re-point it to week day 1.

But my point is that no matter that they think it can be edited by tradition - they still admit that the Sabbath commandment is included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34.

Just as with some Creationists and also atheists - they both agree that at one time the earth existed with no life on Earth - and then now we have the earth with a lot of diversity of life on it. The fact that the two groups do not agree on some details does not mean they do not agree on even a single detail.

 

[BobRyan]

It was a sin before the cross to "take God's name in vain" and it is still a sin to do it after the cross - because as John reminds us - even in the New Testament "Sin IS transgression of the LAW" and that Law is the one where "the 5th commandment is the first commandment with a promise" still -- Eph 6:1-2

A moral law is any law that a person instinctively knows to do good without God directly commanding that person to keep such laws .

Catholics like to make that case about "natural law" not "moral law". Moral law is that which defines "what sin is". If I say it is a law in my yard that everyone must wear red shoes and someone walks across it with green shoes .. they have not "sinned".

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4. Moral law defines what sin IS - Romans 7.

There is not a single statement of scripture that says "if you only know of a law because God says it .. then it is not a moral law". There is no such thing as that.

(Not sure how we got to this topic - but I do like the subject)

 

[BobRyan]

Yes but most creationists, especially in past threads in CF almost always believe in the literal 6 days.

Almost everyone here accepts the literal 7 day creation week. This is the creationist forum after all so I would grant you that.

But very few here claim that the entire universe was made in that literal 7 days or even the entire galaxy.

There isn't any Christian who does not believe God created everything,

I hope that is true. But in the end a lot of T.E.'s out there flat out reject the idea that anything that you see around you can be detected as 'having been made' or if you suppose maybe it was "made" that the one who made it shows any signs of intelligence at all based on looking at what He made.

When you think about it, how else can God assure that life can survive the every changing ecosystem if their biology doesn't adapt?

Evolution is not about mutation or adaption where longer hair becomes the favored trait. IF that were "all" it were - we would all be evolutionists.

Instead of that - evolution is about prokaryotes turning into eukaryotes over time... the eukaryote turns into a horse over time etc. It is the story that there must be tiny gradual steps - a ladder that reaches all the way to the other side of the chasm -- no matter that it cannot be observed to be fact. As Dawkins admits "evolution never happens while we are observing".

No matter that direct observations in nature of over 75000 generations of prokaryotes does not show them at all inching closer to becoming eukaryotes EVEN though supposedly modern humans evolved in less than a 10th of that time and we are far less adaptive to our environment than are prokaryotes to their environment "by design".

 

[Aussie Pete]

I

Definition of CREATIONISM
"Creationism: a doctrine or theory holding that matter, the various forms of life, and the world were created by God out of nothing and usually in the way described in Genesis "

For the sake of this thread - the way the Bible describes creationism in Genesis 1:3-2:4 is that in 6 evenings-and-mornings God created
the Sun
the moon,
our atmosphere,
and all life on Earth with man and all land animals created in a single "evening and morning" day 6.

So then clearly that belief in creationism is not also belief in evolutionism by any stretch and no text on evolution defines it as stated in the creationist text... "The Bible".

Since this is the "Creationism" forum ... so my question is ... do we actually have any creationists posting here - where the term is defined by that Bible definition?

(I am posting this thread because it is starting to look like there are very few if any actual creationists posting here in this forum ... as in "not a believer in evolutionism" ... is it all just evolutionists here?)

I dislike being called an "-ist or that I subscribe to some form of "-ism". However, I do believe that life was created as stated in Genesis. Why? Not because I have some kind of "ism" or "ist" ace to grind. Rather, it is because I take God at His word.

I also believe that the earth was in existence already when God, as I see it, restored life to a devastated planet. Some people call this pre-Adamic creation. It's not a new theory (I do not presume to say that it is proven). It explains the apparent discrepancies between the supposed age of the earth and the calculated 6,000 years that the Young Earth school of thought believes. I believe that the earth was submerged by a flood prior to Noah's flood and that was the "waters" referred to in Genesis 1:2.

Evolution is the crutch of people who either don't know God or who are desperate to explain Him away. It is so far fetched (cue evolutionist outrage) that people need to suspend their normal common sense in order to accept evolution. As one well known professor at Monash University said, "We know that there is no God. Evolution is the only other explanation". My Bible tells me that the fool says in his heart that there is no God. No, I don't remember his name and that quote goes back many years.

Theistic evolution is equally implausible. How can man be made in God's image? How can man be a sinner? Character traits are not transmitted genetically. Neither are skills. My dad was a good boxer. I have no talent, no interest and no skill in boxing. So how come the human race is sinful?

In order to deny "God Created", you have to deny the Bible. If you deny the Bible, you have no basis for calling yourself a Christian. When an ape taps me on the shoulder and asks, "Am I my keeper's brother?", I may change my mind. I'm not holding my breath.

 

[BobRyan]

I
I dislike being called an "-ist or that I subscribe to some form of "-ism".

Well welcome to the "Creationism" forum my friend.

However, I do believe that life was created as stated in Genesis. Why? Not because I have some kind of "ism" or "ist" ace to grind. Rather, it is because I take God at His word.

Bingo!

And when the atheist or the T.E. wants to oppose your view they will refer to it as "creationism" as shorthand for what you believe.

I also believe that the earth was in existence already

True.
Gen 1:1 says God created the universe before that.
Gen 1:2 say the earth already existed with water covering the surface of the deep -- before that.
Gen 1:3 is the first of the 7 days of Creation week where each day begins with "An God said" and each day ends with "And evening and morning where the nth day".

when God, as I see it, restored life to a devastated planet. Some people call this pre-Adamic creation. It's not a new theory (I do not presume to say that it is proven). .

Stories, suggestions, ideas are plentiful.. But if we just go by the Bible its a 7 day creation week with an Earth that was "formless and void" before that.

day 1 - God creates light ... evening and morning... a rotating planet with some sort of light source on one side.

day 2 - God creates the atmosphere for Earth.

day 3 -- Dry land... and plants.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Well welcome to the "Creationism" forum my friend.



Bingo!

And when the atheist or the T.E. wants to oppose your view they will refer to it as "creationism" as shorthand for what you believe.



True.
Gen 1:1 says God created the universe before that.
Gen 1:2 say the earth already existed with water covering the surface of the deep -- before that.
Gen 1:3 is the first of the 7 days of Creation week where each day begins with "An God said" and each day ends with "And evening and morning where the nth day".




Stories, suggestions, ideas are plentiful.. But if we just go by the Bible its a 7 day creation week with an Earth that was "formless and void" before that.

day 1 - God creates light ... evening and morning... a rotating planet with some sort of light source on one side.

day 2 - God creates the atmosphere for Earth.

day 3 -- Dry land... and plants.

The basis for pre-Adamic creation concept is the same as the young earth believers. It hinges on one word. The earth "was" formless and void could just as readily be translated "became". I believe the latter to be correct.