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Do you agree that Christians should obey all 613 commandments?

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ghendricks63

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There wouldn't be law in our hearts without first having it on paper. I don't hear magical voices that say don't murder, i read it on paper and my heart says yes, i will obey. I never justified any one by any law. I merely say we are taught to keep some of it like "thou shall not kill", others say we should throw it out. What do you think?

Adhering to one law, the law of love, is not the same as "throwing out" the old law...it is fullfilling it. Big difference. I don't need the law that says not to murder because thanks to God's Spirit living within me I can simply know that wrongly taking the life of another is sin. Pre-cross all had to be written down as there was no Indwelling Spirit, and it was still woefully inadequate. If I keep the law of love I will follow the 10 commandments intent even if I have never heard a one of them.
 
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ghendricks63

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Where the distinction really lies.. is that which is written on the heart, the same as what was written on stone... It is like this... is the Law of Christ.. the Law of God?

The law of Christ fullfills the law of God...it and Christ represents the intent of the old law. In fact the law of Christ is my primary guide for sorting out that which is written in the old testament that represents the influence of sinful man from what is there by divine revelation of God.
 
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visionary

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God ties "love" and "keep" together.....


Exodus 20:6
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Deuteronomy 5:10
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

So did Yeshua..

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

So do the apostles....

1 John 2:5
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1 John 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Now that is consistency...!!!!!
 
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ghendricks63

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I wouldn't disagree with you for an instant (except in its replacement). It has been written within the heart. BUT, it's really nice to be able to turn to the pages when in doubt - "was that really the Lord? or was it just me? or was it.....??" Having Torah as a gauge is a very good thing.

Oh and yes, MJ is Messianic Judaism.

I have much respect for Messianic Jews and will in no ways let my differences of interpretation cause me to part with them. :thumbsup:

The reason I say it has been replaced is because I believe some of what the old covenant law contains is there by human influence rather than by God. Things like stoning children who are rebellious for instance. Still I reject those who say I have to believe every word is there by God's design or I cannot trust any of it. In fact...I try to use great care in evaluating all of the old law (the imperfect) in light of the new law (the perfect) of Christ.

Does this make sense?
 
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ghendricks63

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God ties "love" and "keep" together.....


Exodus 20:6
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Deuteronomy 5:10
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

So did Yeshua..

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

So do the apostles....

1 John 2:5
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1 John 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Now that is consistency...!!!!!

I totally agree with your conclusions...though we might differ in our definition of what the law is. ;)
 
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11822

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Adhering to one law, the law of love, is not the same as "throwing out" the old law...it is fullfilling it. Big difference. I don't need the law that says not to murder because thanks to God's Spirit living within me I can simply know that wrongly taking the life of another is sin. Pre-cross all had to be written down as there was no Indwelling Spirit, and it was still woefully inadequate. If I keep the law of love I will follow the 10 commandments intent even if I have never heard a one of them.


I think reading Jesus words are better than leaning on my own understanding. Jesus teaches about murder and adultery.


Mathew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.


27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery
 
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yedida

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I have much respect for Messianic Jews and will in no ways let my differences of interpretation cause me to part with them. :thumbsup:

The reason I say it has been replaced is because I believe some of what the old covenant law contains is there by human influence rather than by God. Things like stoning children who are rebellious for instance. Still I reject those who say I have to believe every word is there by God's design or I cannot trust any of it. In fact...I try to use great care in evaluating all of the old law (the imperfect) in light of the new law (the perfect) of Christ.

Does this make sense?

Admittedly, there's been a time or two I've considered stoning my youngun, but we're not living in that theocracy at this time, so she is still with us and about to make me a grandma. (Yea!!! We survived!!) That's where that difference lies, the government the Israelites were under. So I agree, the civil laws are different today because the government is different. But the objective to the avoidance of the stoning remains the same - be obedient to parents, honor them, do not commit adultery, do not lead others to worship false gods, do not commit murder (all capital crimes).
There is no "new" law. It's still what it always was. It's just that the sacrificial system came to its fulness in Jesus' once-for-all atonement. There is no need to continually return to the altar with fears of unknown sins or of unforgiveable sins, there's no need to wonder if the sacrifice will be acceptable. It was, it is, it will be.
 
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Noxot

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I do not agree that the law is to be taken so literally.

There is great spiritual meaning in the law that is worthy to be followed. But as always, it is human weakness that has the blinders on and people read the law but do not know what it is saying. I heard Jesus Christ was good at knowing what His law means.
 
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ghendricks63

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I think reading Jesus words are better than leaning on my own understanding. Jesus teaches about murder and adultery.

Perhaps you would care to explain to me how ANYTHING I have said in this thread represents disagreeing with Jesus or leaning on my own understanding?
 
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11822

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I think the law on paper is the same that's in our heart. We fail to obey Gods law of love the same way we fail to keep His law of 10 Cs and for the same reasons. I think the law of love is found in obeying the law of the 10 Cs on a personal level and not found at all in disobeying them.
 
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ghendricks63

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Admittedly, there's been a time or two I've considered stoning my youngun, but we're not living in that theocracy at this time, so she is still with us and about to make me a grandma. (Yea!!! We survived!!) That's where that difference lies, the government the Israelites were under. So I agree, the civil laws are different today because the government is different. But the objective to the avoidance of the stoning remains the same - be obedient to parents, honor them, do not commit adultery, do not lead others to worship false gods, do not commit murder (all capital crimes).
There is no "new" law. It's still what it always was. It's just that the sacrificial system came to its fulness in Jesus' once-for-all atonement. There is no need to continually return to the altar with fears of unknown sins or of unforgiveable sins, there's no need to wonder if the sacrifice will be acceptable. It was, it is, it will be.

:thumbsup:
 
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11822

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Perhaps you would care to explain to me how ANYTHING I have said in this thread represents disagreeing with Jesus or leaning on my own understanding?


I was saying that we need to read the law according to Jesus.



Mathew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. 25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
2
7 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.


43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
 
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visionary

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I was saying that we need to read the law according to Jesus.



Mathew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. 25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
2
7 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.


43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
exactly.. let's get into the intent and depth that Yeshua wants us to see and understand..:thumbsup::clap:
 
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ghendricks63

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I was saying that we need to read the law according to Jesus.



Mathew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. 25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
2
7 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.


43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

OK well we are in agreement there. I was assuming you directed that comment towards me since it was a reply to my post. Thank you for clarifying your intent. ;)
 
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visionary

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I think the law on paper is the same that's in our heart. We fail to obey Gods law of love the same way we fail to keep His law of 10 Cs and for the same reasons. I think the law of love is found in obeying the law of the 10 Cs on a personal level and not found at all in disobeying them.
God is consistent and it is us who are not
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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God is consistent and it is us who are not
That is my view also visionary :thumbsup: :amen:

Hebrew 1:12 and as-if a clothing Thou shall be rolling-up them as a cloak, and they shall be being changed/allaghsontai <236> (5691).
Thou yet the same are and the years of Thee not shall be lacking/failing".
[Psalm 102:25-27/1 Corin 15:51,52/Reve 6:14]

1 Corin 15:51 Behold! A mystery to ye I am telling. All not we shall be being reposed, all yet we shall be being changed/allaghsomeqa <236> (5691)
52 in instant, in twinkle of eye, in the last trump.
For He shall be trumpeting and the dead-ones shall be being roused uncorruptible and we shall be being changed/allaghsomeqa <236> (5691)

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G236&t=KJV
Strong's Number G236 matches the Greek &#7936;&#955;&#955;&#8049;&#963;&#963;&#969; (allass&#333;), which occurs 7 times in 6 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV
 
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Steve Petersen

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I put this one together using reftagger. I copied it from Wiki but added the function of reftagger. Hover your mouse over each verse citation to read it without clicking it. Very educational and should be wonderful for those who wish to wallow in the Law...

613 Laws of the Old Testament

Not 'should' but 'may.' ;)
 
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11822

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Wallowing about like a self righteous pharisee would not be living by grace. But at what point do i wallow? Isn't it only when i think the law brings salvation? But what about love? To break the commandment is to not love. Wallow or follow, thats the difference.
 
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