Do you agree that Christians should obey all 613 commandments?

[tzadik]

Very interesting. If we don't have to keep the Law of Moses then AGAIN, why are you trying to force it on Christians who live buy the New Covenant in Jesus' Blood? You deny trying to put us 'under the Law' but that's exactly what you are trying to do.

Dollar, Messiah’s redeeming blood does in no way “cancel” our obedience to God’s Instructions. If anything, now that we are redeemed, no longer “in the flesh”…it is THEN that we are able to be subject to the Holy Spiritual Law of God.

That’s exactly what Paul talks about in Romans 8.

1. Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4. so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5. For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7. because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8. and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

If our mindset is on the things of the flesh we can’t be subject to the Spiritual Law of God, nor can we please God NO MATTER how hard we try.
But we are no longer in the flesh, but in the Spirit. It is God’s Spirit dwelling in me that enables me to joyfully concur with the Law of God confessing that it’s righteous, spiritual, perfect and good

 

[tzadik]

You deny trying to put us 'under the Law' but that's exactly what you are trying to do.

Dollar..
if someone has truly been redeemed from the condemnation that the Law brings them (because of their sins)...it is impossible for them to go back "under the law", unless they are trying to earn their salvation through works of the law.
This is why Galatians 3:10 tells us that whoever tries to be justified, or work their salvation through keeping the Law is cursed, because they'd have to keep it perfectly! And NO ONE can do that. (cept Messiah)

We have been redeemed from the eternal condemnation of sin under the Law. We now have an advocate, and have been pardoned from the wages of our sins.
The Law of God continues EVEN MORE to be a light and a lamp illuminating our path!

 

[dollarsbill]

Do you "advocate abstaining from foods"?

1 Timothy 4:1-4 (NASB)
1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;

 

[FredVB]

OK so it really is a I'm right and your wrong religious snot slinging contest. How any one can base an argument about truth on what the masses say will never come to the truth. Neither can you establish a lie by the same means. Of course a lie isn't the truth.

You use antnomian like they are pro sin.

Your post is so general with no support or phantom support I wonder if you're not really a politician.

Jesus said I give you a new commandment... in John 13:34. Maybe God doesn't know what He is doing, huh? Maybe John is lying and Jesus really didn't say that.

Look I have no problem with Christians being required to show good morals. I simply don't base that on the law. Take Gal 5:19-20 for instance. Or how about I Tim 1:9-10. Maybe I could trust you to use the law, lawfully. OTH I prolly should include verse 8 with 9 and 10. Doesn't the same sort of list appear in Romans 1 also? Did Jesus tell the adulteress to go and sin no more?

Didn't tazdik say the Bible is a unit? What does Isa 28:10 say? Isn't this demonstratable within the Book of the Law (Pentateuch)? Why don't or won't you come aboard with the full NC? Why do you pick and choose what you want to believe? Is it a vanity thing?

I don't really know what you are saying anymore, listed. It seemed I was not understood, so I explained some of the things I believed as clearly as I could, so it would be understood. It also seemed you were saying things as a put-down. I do not have to show support for things I have not said.

 

[Yab Yum]

In Romans 1, 5: Paul speaks of the "obedience of faith" that is, the obedience that faith is. A standard Protestant reference work, <Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, Supplement>, p. 333 describes Pauline faith as including belief, confidence, obedience and love. It says of Romans 1.5 what we have just said: "the obedience that faith is."

In contrast, Luther said if we have faith, we need not obey. Luther in a letter to Melanchthon of August 1, 1521 (American Edition, 48. 281-82) wrote: "If you are a preacher of grace, then preach a true and not a fictitious grace; if grace is true, you must bear a true and not a fictitious sin. God does not save people who are only fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly ... as long as we are here [in this world] we have to sin ... . No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day."

What a monstrous error! Faith includes obedience, as Paul said in Romans 1.5, 1 Cor 6.9-10, and Gal 5.16-25. and as the <Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible>. Yet Luther said if you have faith, you need not obey at all.

 

[FredVB]

I agree with most of what you have written here.
I do have one question. Honest question

Why did Paul offer up purification sacrifices/offerings in the Temple after his Nazarite Vow in Acts 21?
He was obviously following the commandments in Numbers 6 regarding the vow.
Could it be that the offerings that are "non-related" to sin, such as the purification offerings, guilt offerings, food, drink and peace offerings were not replaced...until they were unable to be performed due to no Temple?

This was an interesting question, I honestly had not given it much thought before. I looked up what might be found about it; there was the following from John Gill's Exposition of the Bible, of Acts 21:26, which seems to be a possibility:

Paul took the men
The four men that had the vow on them; he joined himself to them, and put himself in the same condition, and under a like vow: this he did, not as what he thought himself bound to do in obedience to the law, and much less as necessary to salvation; but to satisfy weak minds, and remove their prejudices, that he might gain them, and be useful to them; and in such a case he would very easily and readily condescend; but when such like things were insisted upon as points of duty, and especially when urged as necessary to salvation, no one more stiffly opposed them:
and the next day purifying himself with them;
that is, not separating himself along with them, from what they were obliged by the vow of the Nazarite, as from drinking of wine and shaving, and from everything that was unclean by the law; for this was now done, but cleansing himself afterwards with them: he
entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days
of the purification:
the sense is, that when the days of separation were fulfilled, which the four men had vowed, as everyone might vow what time he pleased, he went to the priests in the temple, to signify it to them, that the time of their purification was expiring:
until that an offering should be offered for everyone of them;
as the law directs in Numbers 6: 13-20 when he proposed to pay the charges of it, or at least part of it.

 

[listed]

I don't really know what you are saying anymore, listed. It seemed I was not understood, so I explained some of the things I believed as clearly as I could, so it would be understood. It also seemed you were saying things as a put-down. I do not have to show support for things I have not said.

I have come to the conclusion in my life that everything that isn't yes and is a put down.

 

[listed]

In Romans 1, 5: Paul speaks of the "obedience of faith" that is, the obedience that faith is. A standard Protestant reference work, <Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, Supplement>, p. 333 describes Pauline faith as including belief, confidence, obedience and love. It says of Romans 1.5 what we have just said: "the obedience that faith is."

In contrast, Luther said if we have faith, we need not obey. Luther in a letter to Melanchthon of August 1, 1521 (American Edition, 48. 281-82) wrote: "If you are a preacher of grace, then preach a true and not a fictitious grace; if grace is true, you must bear a true and not a fictitious sin. God does not save people who are only fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly ... as long as we are here [in this world] we have to sin ... . No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day."

What a monstrous error! Faith includes obedience, as Paul said in Romans 1.5, 1 Cor 6.9-10, and Gal 5.16-25. and as the <Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible>. Yet Luther said if you have faith, you need not obey at all.

Not really all things considered. An explanation is very intricate, long and would be confusing to most people. What I'm say ing is it would be very difficult to give a compact statement that people coult grasp. It is kinda like trying to explain the Trinity doctrine.

 

[tzadik]

In Romans 1, 5: Paul speaks of the "obedience of faith" that is, the obedience that faith is. A standard Protestant reference work, <Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, Supplement>, p. 333 describes Pauline faith as including belief, confidence, obedience and love. It says of Romans 1.5 what we have just said: "the obedience that faith is."

In contrast, Luther said if we have faith, we need not obey. Luther in a letter to Melanchthon of August 1, 1521 (American Edition, 48. 281-82) wrote: "If you are a preacher of grace, then preach a true and not a fictitious grace; if grace is true, you must bear a true and not a fictitious sin. God does not save people who are only fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly ... as long as we are here [in this world] we have to sin ... . No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day."

What a monstrous error! Faith includes obedience, as Paul said in Romans 1.5, 1 Cor 6.9-10, and Gal 5.16-25. and as the <Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible>. Yet Luther said if you have faith, you need not obey at all.

100% agree!
Even the demons believe!

John 3:36 tells us that true believing=obedience!
Messiah can't be your Savior if He isn't your Lord!

 

[Harry3142]

I put this one together using reftagger. I copied it from Wiki but added the function of reftagger. Hover your mouse over each verse citation to read it without clicking it. Very educational and should be wonderful for those who wish to wallow in the Law...

613 Laws of the Old Testament

What makes you think that there were only 613 laws and commandments at the time of Christ's coming among us? With the laws added in the Mishna, Midrash, and Talmud there were literally thousands of laws by that time.

 

[FredVB]

What makes you think that there were only 613 laws and commandments at the time of Christ's coming among us? With the laws added in the Mishna, Midrash, and Talmud there were literally thousands of laws by that time.

But probably all arguing here for obedience with the Law are not referring to the Mishna, the Talmud, or the Midrash. For my part, I have to say I am misunderstood again and again. I have spoken for obedience in morality, but that does not mean all the Law through Moses must be for all believers, such making all of them Jewish if they were to do it. I have said the Law was not all done away with, it certainly does not mean it necessarily was because of Christ was fulfilling it. But the Law not being done away does not mean that there is not a new covenant or that Christ is not the high priest in it or that the sacrifice is not accomplished. There is Jewish obedience in observance still possible, and morality in commandments still generally applicable. And I still have to keep saying, although why, I never say otherwise, that none of us are saved by our works, salvation is from the grace of Yahweh, according to our faith in Christ, savior and Lord, from our sin to life everlasting with him.

 

[Going Merry]

Nah I can't keep it.
if I could I wouldn't need Jesus

 

[listed]

But probably all arguing here for obedience with the Law are not referring to the Mishna, the Talmud, or the Midrash. For my part, I have to say I am misunderstood again and again. I have spoken for obedience in morality, but that does not mean all the Law through Moses must be for all believers, such making all of them Jewish if they were to do it. I have said the Law was not all done away with, it certainly does not mean it necessarily was because of Christ was fulfilling it. But the Law not being done away does not mean that there is not a new covenant or that Christ is not the high priest in it or that the sacrifice is not accomplished. There is Jewish obedience in observance still possible, and morality in commandments still generally applicable. And I still have to keep saying, although why, I never say otherwise, that none of us are saved by our works, salvation is from the grace of Yahweh, according to our faith in Christ, savior and Lord, from our sin to life everlasting with him.

So complain because people don't take your view as their own. This type of approach shows lack of validity in an argument. I really don't like the poor little o me attitude. It gets automatic dismissal from me.

 

[listed]

Nah I can't keep it.
if I could I wouldn't need Jesus

and exactly.

 

[cyberlizard]

What makes you think that there were only 613 laws and commandments at the time of Christ's coming among us? With the laws added in the Mishna, Midrash, and Talmud there were literally thousands of laws by that time.

this would be anachronistic... we do not know what laws were in place at the time of Christ, firstly because none of those sources had been comitted to writing and secondly, much of the country was still Helenized and didn't give a stuff about the laws anyway.


Steve

p.s. many of the laws found in thosw works though are simply legal rulings on how to implement the laws.

 

[Lulav]

this would be anachronistic... we do not know what laws were in place at the time of Christ, firstly because none of those sources had been comitted to writing and secondly, much of the country was still Helenized and didn't give a stuff about the laws anyway.


Steve

p.s. many of the laws found in those works though are simply legal rulings on how to implement the laws.

Or to keep from trespassing them.

 

[Lysimachus]

Nah I can't keep it.
if I could I wouldn't need Jesus

Impossible? If you mean impossible in the sense of us trying to do it on our own, without Christ, I agree. But nothing is impossible with God.

"With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:26)

"For with God nothing shall be impossible." (Luke 1:37)

"I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. (Phil 4:13)

The reason you need Jesus is because it is Him working in you that makes it possible for you to keep ALL His commandments.

Of ourselves, we can do nothing. We will fail. It is impossible for any man to be righteous---but that is, "of himself". Our righteousness only comes from Christ. And once Christ lives and dwells in us, He will transform us into His likeness, His image. And if this is the case, through the power of Christ dwelling in us, we will exercise the strength to overcome all known sin in our lives--and this is the message to the Churches in Revelation.

 

[listed]

Impossible? If you mean impossible in the sense of us trying to do it on our own, without Christ, I agree. But nothing is impossible with God.

"With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:26)

"For with God nothing shall be impossible." (Luke 1:37)

"I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. (Phil 4:13)

The reason you need Jesus is because it is Him working in you that makes it possible for you to keep ALL His commandments.

Of ourselves, we can do nothing. We will fail. It is impossible for any man to be righteous---but that is, "of himself". Our righteousness only comes from Christ. And once Christ lives and dwells in us, He will transform us into His likeness, His image. And if this is the case, through the power of Christ dwelling in us, we will exercise the strength to overcome all known sin in our lives--and this is the message to the Churches in Revelation.

If one sins they're not keeping the law. Plain and simple.

 

[tzadik]

If one sins they're not keeping the law. Plain and simple.

Of course not. When we sin we break the Law of God.
Breaking the Law is going to happen as long as we have this mortal and sinful body that loves to sin.
But keeping, obeying and following God's Law is when righteous believers, adhere to and obey the will of God outlined in ALL of His Word (Including the Law).
Will we fail and miss the mark? Absolutely. But will we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid!
Keeping and Obedience to the Law of God does NOT equal "PERFECTION".
It means living a life according to God's Word. It means, when you mess up and miss the mark, you set it right and do better next time.
This is why it says "line upon line" "precept upon precept". It's not about "perfectly" following the letter of the law, trying to get everything right.
But rather an inward obedience, that automatically manifests into outward obedience to the Perfect Will of God.
If I try to move a finger in obedience with my own strength...it would be in vain.
But with the Help of His Spirit, I am able to walk according to His Will and His Ways.
Because at the end of the day, I am a child of God, encouraged and instructed to walk according to His Word.

 

[tzadik]

If one sins they're not keeping the law. Plain and simple.

It's like speeding.
Every time I speed, I am breaking the Law and NOT keeping the Law.
Consciously or unconsciously.
Every time I drive the speed limit, I am keeping the Law.

Same thing with God's Word.
If His Word says, children obey and honor your parents...and I obey and honor my parents, I am keeping/guarding/obeying God's Word.
If I dishonor my parents, I am breaking/going against God's Word and Will.