Do you agree or disagree with this statement?

[amariselle]

You're saying that you can't save yourself from yourself? What happens if you fail?

I do fail, this is precisely what I need a Saviour.

Sounds like you've been given an impossible task and you know it... and when you fail, you're expected to ask forgiveness...

It is an impossible task for me, but not for God. He is merciful and forgiving.

 

[Jimmy D]

I agree. In many ways I expect nothing less, Jesus did warn us the world would hate us. The fact remains however that there are forum rules in place so that people can have honest and respectful dialogue and learn from one another. Many here do not seem in any way interested in doing so, but would rather play games and go round and round in endless, circular arguments. I sometimes wonder why they even signed up to a Christian forum in the first place. They already seem to have all the answers they need and are absolutely convinced that Christians believe in a bunch of nonsense.

There are plenty of Atheist forums for this kind of thing, why bring it here?

I don't know if you noticed Amariselle but I'm an atheist too!

Still, I didn't sign up to this forum go around berating Christians for being Christians, live and let live as far as I'm concerned. I enjoy debating with the more fundamentalist science-deniers though, I find them to be an interesting phenomena.

 

[amariselle]

I don't know if you noticed Amariselle but I'm an atheist too!

Still, I didn't sign up to this forum go around berating Christians for being Christians, live and let live as far as I'm concerned. I enjoy debating with the more fundamentalist science-deniers though, I find them to be an interesting phenomena.

My apologies if I insulted you. I was actually referring to particular atheists who seem to be on here to play games. I should have been more clear, that was my mistake.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Prove that it was God who made them change their bad behaviours. Prove that no one who changed a bad behaviour did so because they realised the damage that behaviour was causing and realised that they needed to change it.

On the other hand, I can give you at least one example of God making sure that bad behaviour was NOT changed, that because of God, a bad behaviour remained, and that bad behaviour resulted in many deaths, including the deaths of innocents.

Most people do change behaviors over time, but Christians change mostly because of the spirit led moral imperative, not self-preservation, social pressure, or fear of consequences, although there are also some of those reasons thrown in as well. Also most people change behavior for their own benefit, not the benefit of others. Maturing Christians continue to repent of even small bad behaviors that harm others and they do this over a lifetime. Most people think they are 'good enough' if they don't go to jail, and leave it at that, leaving a trail of thoughtless and careless behaviors in their wake.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Science is the study of reality.

Scientific 'reality' is constantly changing. I don't know about you but I want the creation to be pretty much the same when I wake up each morning (although I could do with fewer deerflies).

 

[Jimmy D]

My apologies if I insulted you. I was actually referring to particular atheists who seem to be on here to play games. I should have been more clear, that was my mistake.

No apology needed, I mostly agreed with the gist your post, it's a Christian forum after all.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I do fail, this is precisely what I need a Saviour.

Which brings us back to the question -- need a savior from what?

Yourself? Your own imperfections? We've already established that you are not, nor can ever be perfect...

It is an impossible task for me, but not for God. He is merciful and forgiving.

And having assigned yourself a task you know is impossible, you've therefore placed yourself in a situation where you will continually require forgiveness. Not a bad system... for Him. But it puts you in a neverending cycle of guilt and dependence...

 

[amariselle]

Which brings us back to the question -- need a savior from what?

Yourself? Your own imperfections? We've already established that you are not, nor can ever be perfect...

Yes, you are right, I do need saving from myself. How can I not? As much as I've tried, I am not perfect, I keep making mistakes.

And having assigned yourself a task you know is impossible, you've therefore placed yourself in a situation where you will continually require forgiveness. Not a bad system... for Him. But it puts you in a neverending cycle of guilt and dependence...

Well, HE is God, I am not. And thankfully, He is a loving and merciful God. He didn't need to send His Son to die for the sins of all mankind, but He did, because He loves us. Of all the unfair things in the history of the world, that a absolutely sinless man would die for the sins of others is the most unfair of all. God sacrificed Himself for us, how then could I ever claim He is only self-serving and doesn't care?

And as to guilt? No, because we are saved through Christ, our sins are forgiven, so there is no need for never ending guilt.

 

[joshua 1 9]

This is probably something of an understatement, but I agree with you..........you do seem to have a 'different' brain......

"Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were powerful; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly and despised things of the world, and the things that are not, to nullify the things that are so that no one may boast in His presence. 1cor29

 

[joshua 1 9]

Which brings us back to the question -- need a savior from what?

You need saved from death and eternal condemnation. Unless perhaps you think that your not going to die. Although for me if this life were all there ever was I still would want to live this life as a Christian knowing God's love.

 

[joshua 1 9]

So what if you're wrong and Allah is the true God? Or Zeus? Or Odin?

They do not have the answer for every question and the solution for every problem that anyone will ever encounter in their life. They talk about one size fits all: the Bible is the one book that applies to every man, women and child that has ever lived and been a part of this world. The Bible has been tested, tried and found to be true (TTT) For over 3500 years by every generation in ever nation, tongue, tribe and people on the planet earth.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Well, HE is God, I am not. And thankfully, He is a loving and merciful God. He didn't need to send His Son to die for the sins of all mankind, but He did, because He loves us.

You're right; He didn't. Forgiveness was always within His power without anyone needing to die.

But where's the melodrama in that?

Of all the unfair things in the history of the world, that a absolutely sinless man would die for the sins of others is the most unfair of all. God sacrificed Himself for us, how then could I ever claim He is only self-serving and doesn't care?

It's only a sacrifice if you actually lose what you're giving up.... knowing you're going to get it back three days later is a temporary inconveninece, at best.

And as to guilt? No, because we are saved through Christ, our sins are forgiven, so there is no need for never ending guilt.

So why are you seeking forgiveness?

 

[amariselle]

You're right; He didn't. Forgiveness was always within His power without anyone needing to die.

But where's the melodrama in that?

Blasphemy and Contempt of Christianity
It is considered blasphemy to insult or mock Christianity or any part of the Trinity-Father (God), Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit. Honest debate about the nature of God and Christian Theology is allowed, but derogatory remarks are not. Contemptuous remarks regarding Christianity or Christian practices are not allowed.

It is a violation of forum rules to suggest that a key belief of the Christian faith (the death of Jesus Christ) is "melodramatic."

It's only a sacrifice if you actually lose what you're giving up.... knowing you're going to get it back three days later is a temporary inconveninece, at best.

If you think the death of Jesus on the cross was simply an "inconvenience" to God, you do not understand the nature of His death and resurrection at all.

So why are you seeking forgiveness?

I've already explained this to you.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Forgiveness was always within His power without anyone needing to die.

God is a God of absolute Justice. He can not compromise who He is.
Either man has to die for his sins or God has to die for man's sins.

 

[Hoghead1]

I agree.

As far as I can see you've been open and honest about your beliefs, I don't think you deserve such a grilling about your faith. I'm not even sure why this thread is here anyway, it seems to be a Christianity bashing thread rather than anything to do with creation or evolution.

Those rooted in Christian fundamentalism may feel attacked by some members here, and attacked they are. But that isn't "bashing" Christianity. It is an honest rebuttal and alternative to fundamentalist ideology, which itself continues to attack modern science, and does its share of science "bashing" here, and then promotes such a rebuttal.

 

[amariselle]

Those rooted in Christian fundamentalism may feel attacked by some members here, and attacked they are. But that isn't "bashing" Christianity. It is an honest rebuttal and alternative to fundamentalist ideology, which itself continues to attack modern science, and does its share of science "bashing" here, and then promotes such a rebuttal.

Some have approached it this way, but not all have. There has been a considerable amount of "bashing." (And I'm not speaking specifically about things said to me). I have witnessed discussions end up turning to personal insults time and time again.

 

[Gene2memE]

Scientific 'reality' is constantly changing.

Fallacy of equivocation. Reality is one thing.

Our understanding of reality is modified as new and better information becomes available. The most reliable, efficient, effective and tested method of determining the nature of reality is through scientific inquiry.

I don't know about you but I want the creation to be pretty much the same when I wake up each morning (although I could do with fewer deerflies).

And I want our understanding of reality to be better every time I wake up.

Modification of our understanding of reality and our ability to describe reality is not a flaw with science. Clinging to disproved dogmas and bronze age creation stories though, well that's a flaw with religions.

 

[rjs330]

Blasphemy and Contempt of Christianity
It is considered blasphemy to insult or mock Christianity or any part of the Trinity-Father (God), Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit. Honest debate about the nature of God and Christian Theology is allowed, but derogatory remarks are not. Contemptuous remarks regarding Christianity or Christian practices are not allowed.

It is a violation of forum rules to suggest that a key belief of the Christian faith (the death of Jesus Christ) is "melodramatic."



If you think the death of Jesus on the cross was simply an "inconvenience" to God, you do not understand the nature of His death and resurrection at all.



I've already explained this to you.

Amariselle, I appreciate your efforts here. You've done a wonderful job of trying to explain the gospel and also the rules here. I have just very recently been reminded in my Bible studies that there comes a time when we just have to stop trying.

In I Corinthians chapters 1-3 Paul really outlines the futility of sharing spiritual truth with unspiritual people. Spiritual truth has to be spritually understood. The worldly cannot comprehend spiritual truth. The wisdom of God is beyond them. We understand because we have The Spirit in us, but they don't. Often they resort to mocking and scoffing.

2 Peter 3:3 tells us that in the last days scoffers will come scoffing at the truth and following their own evil desires.

Proverbs 15:12 says scoffers will not love someone who reproves him he will not go to the wise

Proverbs 9:8 tells us not to reprove a scoffed because he will hate us. He says a wise man will love us for reproving him

I'm beginning to grasp this more and more as I visit these forums. We can share wisdom but there comes time where it's time to stop. I've been bowing out of conversations with people more and more because there comes a point where it becomes useless to continue the argument as they are not at a point where they can receive the wisdom of God. We have to leave it in God's hands at some point. After all He is the one that grants the increase. As Paul explained we can only plant and water. God does the rest.

Blessings on you for holding fast!

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

 

[amariselle]

Amariselle, I appreciate your efforts here. You've done a wonderful job of trying to explain the gospel and also the rules here. I have just very recently been reminded in my Bible studies that there comes a time when we just have to stop trying.

In I Corinthians chapters 1-3 Paul really outlines the futility of sharing spiritual truth with unspiritual people. Spiritual truth has to be spritually understood. The worldly cannot comprehend spiritual truth. The wisdom of God is beyond them. We understand because we have The Spirit in us, but they don't. Often they resort to mocking and scoffing.

2 Peter 3:3 tells us that in the last days scoffers will come scoffing at the truth and following their own evil desires.

Proverbs 15:12 says scoffers will not love someone who reproves him he will not go to the wise

Proverbs 9:8 tells us not to reprove a scoffed because he will hate us. He says a wise man will love us for reproving him

I'm beginning to grasp this more and more as I visit these forums. We can share wisdom but there comes time where it's time to stop. I've been bowing out of conversations with people more and more because there comes a point where it becomes useless to continue the argument as they are not at a point where they can receive the wisdom of God. We have to leave it in God's hands at some point. After all He is the one that grants the increase. As Paul explained we can only plant and water. God does the rest.

Blessings on you for holding fast!

Thank you so much for your encouragement rjs. you are absolutely right in saying we need a spiritual understanding and that worldly wisdom will not lead us to God. I too have been thinking about this more and more. Somehow we need to be willing to give a reason for the hope we have, and yet still know when to step out and leave it with God. We may never know what seeds may have been planted.

Thank you also for being a part of the Christian community here and for encouraging others.

God bless you!

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Fallacy of equivocation. Reality is one thing.

Did you notice the semi quotes?

And I want our understanding of reality to be better every time I wake up.

Modification of our understanding of reality and our ability to describe reality is not a flaw with science. Clinging to disproved dogmas and bronze age creation stories though, well that's a flaw with religions.

You are criticizing beliefs, not actions and behaviors. That's good. I don't really care what others believe as long as they behave themselves.