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Featured Do We Sleeping Until Judgement

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by David_AB, Jan 21, 2019.

  1. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <DK>Commentary is not scripture, and of all sources, the Talmud is not credible.
    All throughout the Law & Prophets we read that people die and cease to exist, not that their body dies and their spirit goes somewhere else.
    Christians and 2nd temple Jews were/are influenced by Greek thought, which is why you will find Jews prior to Christianity who believe similar (incorrect) concepts regarding death and afterlife and hell.
    When we read the Law & Prophets, we don’t get a continual picture of immortal souls, which is Greek, but we get a continual picture of humans dying and ceasing to exist, and this picture continues into the NT.<Dk>
    Your opinion of the Talmud is not relevant and proves nothing about that source. What you are doing is substituting your unsupported opinion for all the historical evidence provided by native Hebrew speaking scholars who contributed to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. These 3 sources provide the only credible, historical evidence for the belief and practices of the ancient Jews. The opinions of modern day readers who know virtually nothing about Jewish history and could not locate a Hebrew verb if their life depended on it don't amount to much compared to the 3 sources I quoted.
     
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  2. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Soli Deo Gloria

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  3. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Something to consider looking at your defense.

    1. Luke 16:19-30 = Parable God's Word does not contradict itself (see posts # 13 and post # 15 e.g. 1 THESSALONIANS 4:13-17; JOHN 11:11-13; MARK 5:35-39; MATTHEW 27:50-53; ACTS 13:36; DEUTERONOMY 31:16; 1 KINGS 2:10; 1 KINGS 11:43; 1 KINGS 14:20; 1 KINGS 14:31; 1 KINGS 15:8; 1 KINGS 15:24; 1 KINGS 16:6; 1 KINGS 16:28; 1 KINGS 22:40; 1 KINGS 22:50; 2 KINGS 8:24; JOB 7:21; JOB 14:12; PSALMS 13:3; ECCLESIASTES 9:3-6; PSALMS 115:17; MATTHEW 10:5-8; 1 CORINTHIANS 15:50-55; PHILIPPIANS 3:10-11; DANIEL 12:2; HEBREWS 9:27

    2. Luke 23:43 = There is no comma in the original GREEK. The original GREEK of this text reads as Today you will be with me in paradise. Today you have salvation because he believed in JESUS at that moment as the Chrsit.

    3. 2 Corinthians 5:6-9 = Does not say that when you die you are present with the LORD. This would contradict what Paul says about the reusrrection at the second coming; 1 THESSALONIANS 4:13-17; PHILIPPIANS 3:10-11; JOB 14:12; 1 CORINTHIANS 15:50-55 etc.

    4. 2 Corinthians 12:3-4 = This is talking about VISIONS and REVELATIONS from God not the state of the dead CONTEXT is 2 CORINTHIANS 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to VISIONS and REVELATIONS of the Lord.

    5. Philippians 1:23 = Does not say that Paul would depart and be with Christ right away. All those who have eccepted JESUS are God's people; REVELATION 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from now on: Yes, said the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them.

    6. Ecclesiastes 12:7, = The Hebrew Word for SPIRIT is רוּח; rûach; roo'-akh which means BREATH and life force. At CREATION it is said GOD breathed into man BREATH of life *GENESIS 2:7; GENESIS 6:17; JOB 33:4. Animals have the same BREATH of LIFE *GENESIS 1:30; GENESIS 7:15; PSALMS 74:19 etc..

    This is taken also from the same book of ECCLESIASTES..

    ECCLESIASTES 9:3-6
    3, This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and AFTER THAT THEY GO TO THE DEAD. 4, For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5, FOR THE LIVING KNOW THAT THEY SHALL DIE; BUT THE DEAD KNOW NOTHING, NEITHER HAVE THEY ANY MORE REWARD; THEIR MEMORY IS FORGOTTEN. 6, ALSO, THEIR LOVE AND THEIR HATRED AND THEIR ENVY IS NOW PERISHED; NEITHER HAVE THEY ANY MORE A PORTION FOR EVER IN ANY THING THAT IS DONE UNDER THE SUN.

    God bless
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
  4. Dkh587

    Dkh587 David דויד Supporter

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    All that is fine and dandy, but manmade opinions and books such as the Talmud and encyclopedias are not scripture, nor are they an authority on Scripture or scriptural understanding.

    You proved my original point that you can’t teach immortal souls and going to heaven/hell after death out of the Law & Prophets - that is why you had to seek manmade opinions and doctrines from Hellenized Jews whose mindset was influenced by Greek thought - just like you and millions of other Christians
     
  5. David_AB

    David_AB Member Supporter

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    Regarding Deut. 31:16. If we go to the Transfiguration of Jesus, Moses appears with Elijah.
    If Moses is sleeping until Judgement day, how can he appear with Jesus on the mountain?
     
  6. Dkh587

    Dkh587 David דויד Supporter

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    It was a vision - Moses and Elijah were not there
     
  7. David_AB

    David_AB Member Supporter

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    Not sure I follow.
    Mark 9:4 says:
    And there appeared to them Elijah with Moses, and they were talking with Jesus.

    How can Jesus be talking to them if they weren't there?
     
  8. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Elijah never died *2 KINGS 2:11 and Moses raised to life from the dead *DEUTERONOMY 34:5-6; JUDE 1:9. This vision represents the two classes of those in Christ that will be around at the second coming with JESUS. The dead shall be raised to life and their will be others who will not die and will not taste death at the 2nd coming *1 THESSALONIANS 4:13-17; 1 CORINTHIANS 15:50-55; LUKE 9:27. The scriptures here do not say everyone goes to Heaven when they die. MOSES represents the DEAD in CHRIST raised to life through God's power of the resurrection. Elijah represents those that do not see death in Christ. All of this happens at the second coming.

    1 THESSALONIANS 4:13-17
    13, But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14, For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15, For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16, For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17, Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    1 CORINTHIANS 15:50-55
    50, Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51, Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53, For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54, So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55, O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

    God bless
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2019
  9. Dkh587

    Dkh587 David דויד Supporter

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    Because it’s a spiritual vision, just like Peter saw a sheet with unclean and clean animals on it - the animals and sheer were not really there.

    Messiah told the disciples:
    If you go to BlueLetterBible.org and search for G3705 in the search field, it will take you to the Strong’s definition for the Greek word used where we see “vision” in Matthew 17:9. You can also see the other times it’s used in the NT.

    Another thing to consider, Moses is dead per Hebrews 11, and Moses taught us in the Torah(Law) not to consult with the dead:

    My view is, considering that the NT & OT teache that Moses is dead(Deuteronomy 34:5, Hebrews 11:13), talking to him would be a violation of the very law he gave telling us not to talk to/consult the dead.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2019
  10. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    The sources I quoted have more credibility than your unsupported opinion. As I said those documented sources are the only record that exists on the beliefs and practices of the ancient Jews and those beliefs and practices existed before, during and after the time of Jesus. Jesus would have known those beliefs and although Jesus taught "eternal punishment" and "hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die" etc. He never contradicted the existing belief in Hell. In fact, everything Jesus taught about the afterlife supported the existing belief in hell. On the other hand all you have are your man made opinions. You have not and cannot disprove anything I quoted from scripture.

    You failed to notice everything I quoted was backed up with scripture, by the writers. I even highlighted the scripture in blue so it could not be missed. But you managed to miss it anyway. Not very objective are you?
    .....I am sick to death of that meaningless "Hellenized Jews whose mindset was influenced by Greek thought." I provided credible, verifiable, historical evidence and all you can do is repeat nonsense that you read somewhere online, with zero evidence. Heterodox religious groups endlessly repeat that as if it is some kind of magic mantra. In the society that Jesus and His disciples were born into and grew up in there was an existing belief in hell. Jesus and His disciples would have known about that belief.
    When Jesus taught about e.g.,

    • “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:Matthew 25:41
    • "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
    • "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
    • "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.Matthew 18:6
    • “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Matthew 7:23
    • “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Matthew 26:24
    • “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
    These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence. A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
    Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
    Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
    …..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

    “‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
    …..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which only reinforced those beliefs.

     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2019
  11. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Hi David,
    When something seems to be a contradiction we're misunderstanding something. We've got something wrong. This isn't really confusing if we look comprehensively at the Scriptures. The problem is most people don't. Too many Christians simply proof text passages to try to support what they believe.

    One of the problems is that a lot of, if not most, Christians start with the wrong presuppositions. They come to the Scriptures presuming Dualism. This is simply wrong and it leads them into confusion. They're trying to make the Scriptures fit a line of thinking that is contrary to the Scriptures. If you ask a Christian what a man is most would say man is a spirit living in a flesh body. They say the spirit doesn't die and therefore it must go somewhere when the body dies. Some say believers go to Heaven and unbelievers go to hell. Some claim that this spirit or soul, they use the terms interchangeably, (which is wrong), goes to sleep or is in some unconscious state. All three of these are wrong because they start off with the presumption that man is a spirit living in a flesh body. The Bible teaches no such thing.

    Moses recorded the creation of man.

    7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

    From this passage we can see that the man, after being infused with the breath or spirit (same word) of God the man became a living soul. So, a living soul or a living being consists of two components, the man and the breath or spirit of God. That's what a man is. Notice that there is no human spirit, no man's spirit. it's just God's spirit. It is God's spirit that gives man life. So man is nothing more than a physical body that has been infused with God's spirit. We're also told in Scripture that when a man dies, the spirit or breath of God returns to God and the man returns to the dust from which he came. So you see, when we look at it from Scripture, There is nothing left to live on. God's spirit returns to Him and the man returns to the dust. So, when a man dies he is dead. There are Scripture passages that also confirm this. Some say that the dead cannot praise God, that the dead, know nothing, that they have no memory etc.

    3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
    4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
    (Ps. 146:3-4 KJV)

    18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
    19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth. (Isa. 38:18-19 KJV)


    Also, the apostle Paul when writing to the Corinthians said of dead Christians, if there is no resurrection then those who had died in Christ had perished. He didn't say they were in Heaven or that they were is in some state of limbo, he said if there is no resurrection those who had died in Christ had perished.

    12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
    13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
    14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
    15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
    16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
    17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
    18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (1 Cor. 15:12-18 KJV)
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2019
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  12. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    QUOTE="David_AB, post: 73597129, member: 379370"]I heard something the other day I'd never even thought of and that is when we die, what happens?
    i.e. Are we judged immediately and go to heaven/hell
    Or do we sleep until judgement day when we are raised a judged.

    In Acts chapter 7 when Stephen was stoned to death he "fell asleep".
    When Lazarus was raised from the dead after 3 days, nothing is recorded as to what he said.
    Did he sleep or did he experience heaven?

    The story of Lazarus and the rich man implies when we die we go to heaven or hell. However is this just a parable to explain that even when someone is raised from the dead some still won't believe.

    I'm sure there are many passages in the bible that would make an argument for both cases but I wondered what others thoughts on this were.[/QUOTE
    ==================================
    "Other's thoughts" ?
    There are many of man's devices.

    God made everything simple. His thoughts when revealed by Him, perfectly in line with all His Word, are simple, not 'complicated' like all of man's devices.
     
  13. greenguzzi

    greenguzzi Post-Evangelical, Social Anarchist, One of The Way

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    Have you had a look at His creation? It isn't simple at all!
     
  14. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    :)

    As HE REVEALS IT , it is. Simple and Perfectly beautiful , the Way He Made it, that is....

    not the way man polluted everywhere and killed and destroys ....

    More so when seen how much man corrupts the truth about everything in the world.
     
  15. greenguzzi

    greenguzzi Post-Evangelical, Social Anarchist, One of The Way

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    Creation is all around us to be observed. Creation is revealed in itself.
    God doesn't need to reveal creation. In fact creation reveals God. You seem to have things upside down.
    Romans 1:20

    OK, give me an example of how He reveals it "simply".
     
  16. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    I think from a physical perspective we call death "sleep". A dead person is senseless in the physical aspect, much like one who is completely asleep.

    I have a few things to share about this. I will start with this one.
    There are 29 references to "the realm of the dead" in the NIV Bible.
    A reading of these references bring some startling revelations about the state of the dead. Two of these 29 references are found in Acts chapter two. See below.

    Acts 2:27
    because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,
    you will not let your holy one see decay.

    Acts 2:31
    Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah,
    that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay.
     
  17. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    I'm glad you brought this up. I think this passage is key to understanding the state of the dead. And as you indicated, many dismiss this as a parable, which is debatable.

    Here is an interesting comparison between a scripture in the gospel of John and the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus. Note bold. (my emphasis)

    Luke 16:26
    And besides all this,
    between us and you a great chasm has been set in place,
    so that those who want to go from here to you cannot,
    nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

    John 5:24
    “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and
    believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged
    but has crossed over from death to life.
     
  18. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    But what, or where, is "the Grave"? (sheol)
     
  19. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Really?
    Explain the 27 references to "the realm of the dead" in the OT. (NIV)
    Including this one below. Which is from the key chapter used to claim the doctrine of "soul sleep".

    Ecclesiastes 9:10
    Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.
     
  20. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    The debate evaporates :) .... It neither is a parable (see the differences) nor an event. Jesus spoke from Yahweh, as always, and used the false beliefs of the religious leaders He was talking to to expose what was wrong with them.
    If it is 'findable', see Bullingers pdf exigesis I think it is called , on the rich man and lazarus. It covers all Scripture related, from Beresheit to the Apocalypse, every reference in Scripture (related to 'dead') , and is the 'only' explanation in line with all Scripture. Traditions are very difficult to break free from, btw, so if you believe tradition is good (or even okay) when it is wrong, don't bother.
     
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