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Featured Do We Sleeping Until Judgement

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by David_AB, Jan 21, 2019.

  1. David_AB

    David_AB Member Supporter

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    I heard something the other day I'd never even thought of and that is when we die, what happens?
    i.e. Are we judged immediately and go to heaven/hell
    Or do we sleep until judgement day when we are raised a judged.

    In Acts chapter 7 when Stephen was stoned to death he "fell asleep".
    When Lazarus was raised from the dead after 3 days, nothing is recorded as to what he said.
    Did he sleep or did he experience heaven?

    The story of Lazarus and the rich man implies when we die we go to heaven or hell. However is this just a parable to explain that even when someone is raised from the dead some still won't believe.

    I'm sure there are many passages in the bible that would make an argument for both cases but I wondered what others thoughts on this were.
     
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  2. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Soli Deo Gloria

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    The term "fell asleep" refers to death in Scripture, because everyone will be resurrected on the last day.
     
  3. greenguzzi

    greenguzzi Post-Evangelical, Social Anarchist, One of The Way

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    It seems pretty clear from scripture that this is true. But when I've said so here in the past I've been accused of being a heretic, because the SDA happen to believe something similar.

    I suppose you could argue that from the perspective of the person who "fell asleep" that after he dies he then goes immediately to be with God. So in some sense both ideas are true.
     
  4. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Soli Deo Gloria

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    Oh, the SDA's concept of soul-sleep is false in my opinion. I am convinced that the soul is consciously active after death, and in the presence of God for the believer.
     
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  5. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <DAB>I heard something the other day I'd never even thought of and that is when we die, what happens?
    i.e. Are we judged immediately and go to heaven/hell
    Or do we sleep until judgement day when we are raised a judged.
    In Acts chapter 7 when Stephen was stoned to death he "fell asleep".
    When Lazarus was raised from the dead after 3 days, nothing is recorded as to what he said.
    Did he sleep or did he experience heaven?
    The story of Lazarus and the rich man implies when we die we go to heaven or hell. However is this just a parable to explain that even when someone is raised from the dead some still won't believe.
    I'm sure there are many passages in the bible that would make an argument for both cases but I wondered what others thoughts on this were.<DAB>

    All of the early church fathers who quoted or referred to the story of Lazarus and the rich man considered it to be factual.

    • Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
    Ireneaeus, [120-202 AD], was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.
    1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position , and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table.
    ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
    • Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
    On the Resurrection.
    This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
    • Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
    In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality . For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
    • Tertullian Part First A Treatise On The Soul Chapter 57
    9. Moreover, the fact that Hades is not in any case opened for (the escape of) any soul , has been firmly established by the Lord in the person of Abraham, in His representation of the poor man at rest and the rich man in torment.
    • The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
    Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
    • Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah [A.D. 260-312]
    But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.

     
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  6. greenguzzi

    greenguzzi Post-Evangelical, Social Anarchist, One of The Way

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    Ah, so we disagree after all. Sorry for the assumption.

    On what basis do you base your view? (Genuine question.)
     
  7. Dkh587

    Dkh587 David דויד Supporter

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    Yes. If we die before Messiah comes back, we are dead in the grave and he will resurrect us and we will meet him after that.
     
  8. David_AB

    David_AB Member Supporter

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    This is a really good point. I really hadn't thought of it that way. Why indeed name him if he isn't real.​
     
  9. Dkh587

    Dkh587 David דויד Supporter

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    One of the many issues we run into in modern Christendom, is that many establish doctrines starting in the New Testament, ignoring what the Law & the Prophets have to say.

    You can’t teach eternal torment, eternal soul, and going to heaven/hell after death from the Law & Prophets.
     
  10. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I beg to disagree.
    …..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
    …..Clarification: There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

    Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
    The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
    [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]
    (I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
    But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
    … heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

    Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
    Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
    =================
    Encyclopedia Judaica:
    Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.;). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).

    In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
    Gehinnom
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
    Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
    The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
    Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.


     
  11. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I believe in a partial soul sleep. I believe the saints and the wicked go through long periods of sleep and they are awakened during certain periods of time.

    I do not believe the story of Lazarus and the Rich-man is a parable or fictitious. For one, parables were not based on fiction but real world examples. For all of Jesus's parables are things that could happen or more than likely have happened by statistically probability. Two, this story mentions actual real names of people and places.

    As for the rich-man and his torment in the flame:
    Well, I do not believe the rich-man was being tortured in flames. He was not screaming in pain as many churches today depict hell. The rich-man had a discomfort by his flame. This suggests two possibilities.

    Possibility #1. - The flames in the after-life do not burn and hurt you so as to cause the same amount of intense pain as real world flames do.

    Possibility #2. - The rich-man was discomforted by the heat of the flames either nearby him or in the flames within the great gulf fixed between him and Abraham.​

    So there was no extreme torture in flames going on here. So we do not have to force ourselves to turn this story into a parable on the grounds that it makes God appear to be unjust or cruel. God is good; And He will always punish everyone fairly and justly.

    Side Note:

    Oh, and yes; I do not believe in Eternal Conscious Torment; I believe God will in time destroy the wicked in the Lake of Fire after the Judgment. The wicked will seize to exist.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2019
  12. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    the bible is written for the living not for the dead. Because of this, there are a lot of mysteries of the order and design of God that simply are not revealed to us, and why should they be? We actually don't have a lot of information on the afterlife or a pile of other things.

    So as not to confuse it with what we understand as sleep, the term you are looking for is "soul sleeping". Sleep itself can biblically be used euphemistically for death, rather than say this person is dead they say they are asleep.

    Jesus refers to people as sleeping before he raises them from the dead but he does so inconsistently. Offhand I can think of two cases, the little girl and Lazarus.

    With the girl who had died in Mat 9:24 Jesus says "'Go away. The girl is not dead but asleep.' But they laughed at him" Jesus explicitly says she is not dead but asleep and the response was laughter and Jesus says this rather insensitively as he just entered the room with people crying and grieving over the child. For it to a euphemism, it needs to replace death and make it sound nicer and it should be something well understood. In this case, it was neither so this is not a euphemism and I would suggest it is Jesus showing his power over death.

    with Lazarus it's different. While he is travelling to see Lazarus he makes a comment to his disciples "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up. His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep." what is unique here is that the text identifies that Jesus is using "sleep" euphemistically for death itself and not for natural sleep, even though his disciples didn't understand the reference the text tells us it was this way.

    With the little girl, Jesus seems to be challenging death like he is staring Satan down saying I have authority over you and your power; a foretaste of things to come. With Lazarus, it seems premeditated, and certainly, the text hints at this, that he doesn't deny he is dead but still refers to it as sleep. I don't think either of these examples informs us if we soul sleep or not, they just inform us how Jesus was approaching circumstance at the time and the language he used to do that.

    There are various other verses that refer to death as sleep, for example
    Acts 7:60, Acts 13:36, 1 Cor 11:30 1 Cor 15:6, 18, 20 and 1 Thess 4:13-16 but I think the strongest case for soul sleeping is the last one 1 Thess 4:13 which uses the language "those who sleep in death" this is not merely a euphemism here as Paul identifies sleeping in death. It may be the strongest but there are other verses, that contradict soul sleeping such as to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. What does this all mean? it means we don't know and it doesn't matter... why would it?
     
  13. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    ***

    State of the Dead


    Psalm 90:3-6

    You turn man back into dust And say, "Return, O children of men." For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it passes by, Or as a watch in the night. You have swept them away like a flood, they fall asleep; In the morning they are like grass which sprouts anew.

    Job 7:21

    "Why then do You not pardon my transgression And take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

    Job 14:10-12

    "But man dies and lies prostrate Man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, And a river becomes parched and dried up, So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

    Psalm 13:3

    Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death,

    Daniel 12:2

    "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

    Matthew 9:24

    He said, "Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him.

    Mark 5:39

    And entering in, He said to them, "Why make a commotion and weep? The child has not died, but is asleep."

    Luke 8:52-53

    Now they were all weeping and lamenting for her; but He said, "Stop weeping, for she has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him, knowing that she had died.

    1 Kings 2:10

    Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David.

    Deuteronomy 31:16

    The LORD said to Moses, "Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers; and this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them.

    2 Samuel 7:12

    "When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom.

    1 Kings 11:43

    And Solomon slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of his father David, and his son Rehoboam reigned in his place.

    1 Kings 14:20

    The time that Jeroboam reigned was twenty-two years; and he slept with his fathers, and Nadab his son reigned in his place.

    1 Kings 16:6

    And Baasha slept with his fathers and was buried in Tirzah, and Elah his son became king in his place.

    1 Kings 22:50

    And Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers and was buried with his fathers in the city of his father David, and Jehoram his son became king in his place.

    2 Kings 14:16

    So Jehoash slept with his fathers and was buried in Samaria with the kings of Israel; and Jeroboam his son became king in his place.

    2 Kings 15:7

    And Azariah slept with his fathers, and they buried him with his fathers in the city of David, and Jotham his son became king in his place.

    2 Kings 16:20

    So Ahaz slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David; and his son Hezekiah reigned in his place.

    2 Kings 20:21

    So Hezekiah slept with his fathers, and Manasseh his son became king in his place.

    2 Kings 21:18

    And Manasseh slept with his fathers and was buried in the garden of his own house, in the garden of Uzza, and Amon his son became king in his place.

    Revelation 14:13

    And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."


    John 11:11-14

    This He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep." The disciples then said to Him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover." Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.

    Acts 7:60

    Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.

    1 Corinthians 15:6

    After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;

    John 5:28-29

    "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

    Job 14:13-15

    "Oh that You would hide me in Sheol, That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You, That You would set a limit for me and remember me! "If a man dies, will he live again? All the days of my struggle I will wait Until my change comes. "You will call, and I will answer You; You will long for the work of Your hands.

    Psalm 17:15

    As for me, I shall behold Your face in righteousness; I will be satisfied with Your likeness when I awake.

    Isaiah 26:19

    Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.


    Luke 16:22-23

    "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

    1 Corinthians 15:20

    But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

    But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

    Jeremiah 51:57

    "I will make her princes and her wise men drunk, Her governors, her prefects and her mighty men, That they may sleep a perpetual sleep and not wake up," Declares the King, whose name is the LORD of hosts.


    Psalm 7:3-5

    O LORD my God, if I have done this, If there is injustice in my hands, If I have rewarded evil to my friend, Or have plundered him who without cause was my adversary, Let the enemy pursue my soul and overtake it; And let him trample my life down to the ground And lay my glory in the dust. Selah.

    Psalm 76:5

    The stouthearted were plundered, They sank into sleep; And none of the warriors could use his hands.

    Jeremiah 51:39

    "When they become heated up, I will serve them their banquet And make them drunk, that they may become jubilant And may sleep a perpetual sleep And not wake up," declares the LORD.
     
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  14. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    When people die they are dead. They don't go anywhere except into the grave and they return to dust just as God told Adam. This idea that people go somewhere after death is based in the idea of Dualism, that man is more than just a man. This is a teaching that was common among the Greeks in Jesus' day. It's worked it's way into the Christian Faith but is in no way Biblical.
     
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  15. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    I think the choice is clear. We can choose to believe the teachings of men outside of God's WORD or the Word of God. Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it *ROMANS 3:4. Anything outside of God's WORD that contradicts the scriptures is not from God and designed to lead us away from God.

    Dead that sleep in the Lord are to be raised at the 2nd coming......

    1 THESSALONIANS 4:13-17
    13, But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14, For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15, For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16, For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17, Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    To be dead is to sleep....

    JOHN 11:11-13
    11, These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleeps; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12, Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13, Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14, Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

    MARK 5:35-39
    35, While he yet spake, there came from the ruler of the synagogue's house certain which said, Thy daughter is dead: why troublest thou the Master any further? 36, As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe. 37, And he suffered no man to follow him, save Peter, and James, and John the brother of James. 38, And he cometh to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, and seeth the tumult, and them that wept and wailed greatly. 39, And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleeps.

    MATTHEW 27:50-53
    50, Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51, And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52, And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose <These saints were in the grave sleeping not heaven as some claim>, 53, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

    Sleeping with the fathers means to be dead (theses are a few scriptures there are too many to list)....

    Act 13:36
    For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption

    DEUTERONOMY 31:16
    And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

    1 KINGS 2:10
    So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.

    1 KINGS 11:43
    And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father
    : and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.

    1 KINGS 14:20
    And the days which Jeroboam reigned were two and twenty years: and he slept with his fathers, and Nadab his son reigned in his stead.

    1 KINGS 14:31
    And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David
    . And his mother's name was Naamah an Ammonitess. And Abijam his son reigned in his stead.

    1 KINGS 15:8
    And Abijam slept with his fathers; and they buried him in the city of David
    : and Asa his son reigned in his stead.

    1 KINGS 15:24
    And Asa slept with his fathers,
    and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father: and Jehoshaphat7 his son reigned in his stead.

    1 KINGS 16:6
    So Baasha slept with his fathers,
    and was buried in Tirzah: and Elah his son reigned in his stead.

    1 KINGS 16:28
    So Omri slept with his fathers,
    and was buried in Samaria: and Ahab his son reigned in his stead.

    1 KINGS 22:40
    So Ahab slept with his fathers;
    and Ahaziah his son reigned in his stead.

    1 KINGS 22:50
    And Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father
    : and Jehoram his son reigned in his stead.

    2 KINGS 8:24
    And Joram slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David
    : and Ahaziah his son reigned in his stead.

    (many more in the books of Kings, Chronicle and Samuel)

    JOB 7:21
    And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be

    JOB 14:12
    So man lies down, and rises not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

    PSALMS 13:3
    Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

    ECCLESIASTES 9:3-6
    3, This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead. 4, For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5, For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6, Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

    PSALMS 115:17
    The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

    Jesus sending out the 12 giving them the Holy Spirit to raise the dead.......

    MATTHEW 10:5-8
    5, These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6, But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7, And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8, Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

    The dead that sleep are to be risen from the graves and wake from death for the judgement at the second coming. If the dead are already in heaven why would they be raised from the graves at the 2nd coming?

    1 CORINTHIANS 15:50-55 (Feast of first fruits Resurrection to eternal life - Jesus v 20)
    50, Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51, Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53, For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54, So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55, O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

    PHILIPPIANS 3:10-11
    10, That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11, If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

    DANIEL 12:2
    And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    HEBREWS 9:27
    And inasmuch as it is appointed for men once to "die" once and after this comes judgment

    Many more scriptures from God's WORD showing that death is a sleep until the resurrection at the second coming.

    Hope this helps.
     
  16. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    Is it a parable or is it a real account ... is debatable and has been debated for a long time. Even so ... look at the overwhelming scriptures describing death as sleep .... even Jesus referring to it as such.

    IF ... one goes to heaven or hell or limbo or wherever when they die then there is nobody to resurrected ... no graves to be opened.

    We have this "mini example" of what happens and how it happens.

    Matthew 27

    50When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit. 51At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split.52The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.
     
  17. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    This is a common reaction. When there is something in the Bible which contradicts someone's biases/presuppositions just say it was copied from the Greeks. Let's just ignore the fact that they cannot provide any credible, verifiable, historical, Biblical etc. evidence.
    …..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
    …..Clarification: There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

    Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
    The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
    [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]
    (I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
    But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
    … heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

    Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
    Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
    =================
    Encyclopedia Judaica:
    Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

    …..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.;). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
    In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
    Gehinnom
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
    Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
    The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
    Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
     
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  18. David_AB

    David_AB Member Supporter

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    It's all so confusing. Sometimes I feel that disagreements occur because the Bible appears to contradict itself.

    I can understand the physical aspects, but what happens to our spirit?
    Re bodies raising, what happens to people who are cremated or those never found like those in 911?

    There was Saul and the medium at Endor. Was that really Samuel. It seems so, so did he soul sleepy then awaken briefly to speak to Saul.

    Like someone said earlier, maybe this doesn't matter but my original question really was to see if there was a general consensus or know what Bible schools teach.
     
  19. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    You are only confused because you are looking to others for the truth instead of God's WORD for yourself. You will not find truth outside of the bible and without asking JESUS. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. You need to ask God to be your teacher and claim his promises as you seek to know God's truth through his Word for yourself. This is the NEW COVENANT promise to all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD *HEBREWS 8:11; JOHN 14:26; 16:13; 7:17; 8:31-36.

    God bless
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2019
  20. Dkh587

    Dkh587 David דויד Supporter

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    Commentary is not scripture, and of all sources, the Talmud is not credible.

    All throughout the Law & Prophets we read that people die and cease to exist, not that their body dies and their spirit goes somewhere else.

    Christians and 2nd temple Jews were/are influenced by Greek thought, which is why you will find Jews prior to Christianity who believe similar (incorrect) concepts regarding death and afterlife and hell.

    When we read the Law & Prophets, we don’t get a continual picture of immortal souls, which is Greek, but we get a continual picture of humans dying and ceasing to exist, and this picture continues into the NT.
     
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