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Do we need to be baptized in order to be saved ?

Eternally Grateful

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Thread conversation context.
sorry brother, I still have no idea what you were trying to say.

My response was in fact what I believe. it does not matter how you were baptized in water. what matters is were you baptized by God in a spiritual baptism .

Do you believe this? I was brought in here by my friend Dan to look at the thread, but I have not read it all, to see what you believe. I do not want to misrepresent you
 
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Danthemailman

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People can be very stubborn about this, but in fact it is quite simple,....

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

This is the 1881 Revised Version NT, here is a break down of that Greek word I bolded,....

- Original: ἄνωθεν
- Transliteration: Anothen
- Phonetic: an'-o-then
- Definition:
1. from above, from a higher place
a. of things which come from heaven or God
2. from the first, from the beginning, from the very first
3. anew, over again
- Origin: from G507
- TDNT entry: 07:18,6
- Part(s) of speech: Adverb

- Strong's: From G507; from above; by analogy from the first; by implication anew: - from above again from the beginning (very first) the top.

There's nothing in there about water or anything earthly. Being born again/anew/from above has everything to do with a change given us from GOD in heaven, not something that we do down here.

But again, people are just very stubborn about this and want to rely upon something that they did instead of reaching of to GOD in faith and Him changing them.

To each his own.
Amen and well said. Very stubborn indeed. Such folks would even walk around mountains of grace in order to find water. Relying on something WE DID: Lord, Lord, didn't "WE" is relying on self for eternal life. Instead, Lord, Lord, didn't "YOU" die for our sins, were buried, and rise again the third day to provide for us eternal life (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) is relying on Jesus Christ through faith for eternal life. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

I covered John 3:5 in post #293 and to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

 
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Eternally Grateful

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People can be very stubborn about this, but in fact it is quite simple,....

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

This is the 1881 Revised Version NT, here is a break down of that Greek word I bolded,....

- Original: ἄνωθεν
- Transliteration: Anothen
- Phonetic: an'-o-then
- Definition:
1. from above, from a higher place
a. of things which come from heaven or God
2. from the first, from the beginning, from the very first
3. anew, over again
- Origin: from G507
- TDNT entry: 07:18,6
- Part(s) of speech: Adverb

- Strong's: From G507; from above; by analogy from the first; by implication anew: - from above again from the beginning (very first) the top.

There's nothing in there about water or anything earthly. Being born again/anew/from above has everything to do with a change given us from GOD in heaven, not something that we do down here.

But again, people are just very stubborn about this and want to rely upon something that they did instead of reaching of to GOD in faith and Him changing them.

To each his own.
Amen, Jesus explains it himself

As moses lifted the serpent so to must the son of man be lifted up. that whoever believes, will not perish but live forever.

No water involved in either circumstance. what it took was in faith looking to what was on the pole (cross)
 
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Doug Brents

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How can water take us and place us in vital union with Christ.
How can dirty water take away leprosy, and make skin as soft and pure as a new born baby? It can't. But God can. It is not the water that does anything, it is the action of passing through the water that God recognizes as obedient faith.
The children of Israel were baptized into moses. were they baptized in water? No.
No, that is not the baptism they were commanded to receive. They were baptized in the cloud and fire, and in the Red Sea, and in Jordan. They were not commanded to receive water baptism, but we are.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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How can dirty water take away leprosy, and make skin as soft and pure as a new born baby? It can't. But God can. It is not the water that does anything, it is the action of passing through the water that God recognizes as obedient faith.
But God does not have to use water. God is fully capable of immersing us into Christ without water.

Saying it must be through water is limiting God.
No, that is not the baptism they were commanded to receive. They were baptized in the cloud and fire, and in the Red Sea, and in Jordan. They were not commanded to receive water baptism, but we are.
No, they were not baptized into the cloud and sea. they were baptized into Moses. The same way we are baptized into Christ in the his death and body

1 Corinthians 10:2
all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,

Moses was the head,

Just like Christ is the head.
 
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Doug Brents

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Actually no I was not.. My life was changed..
A changed life is not evidence of salvation (Matt 7:23).
Read what I am saying

Matt 28, go make disciples BAPTIZE THEM.

they are already disciples when they are baptized.
Being a disciple does not indicate salvation either. Disciple simply means student/learner. A person can be a student, in fact they must be a student, before they receive salvation. Salvation is the degree, the diploma, received after a certain amount of learning and application have been demonstrated. Baptism is the graduation ceremony in which salvation is conferred upon the student. Graduation does not stop the learning.
Yes it does. Because it adds something that John never added. John said he who believes is not condemned. He did not add the word baptized. Mark did. why?
John did not say anything about "belief". He talked about "pistis", which means "faith". Faith is not just intellectual assent (belief). Faith is belief in action; the evidence and substance that proves (as if in a court of law) what we truly believe. God speaking through John did not mention baptism, because John's Gospel came many years after Mark's Gospel was already in wide circulation.
lol.. well I meant peter.

But I am not wrong. my friend, did you take language class in school?

3rd person is just the point of view of the writer. the words would be he she or they.

2nd person is also the point of view. it directly addresses the listener.

literally Peter told the listener (all of you or you (plural) to repent.

then he addressed a second group of people (them) to be baptized.

another way to say it would be repent, and let every one of THEM be baptized. You can see how odd that sounds.

so who is them? it is those who recieved remission of sin.
No, it is those who repent.
All of you repent, and the one who repents must be baptized.
And the ones who repent and are baptized will receive forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. You see, forgiveness and the gift of the Spirit both go to the one who believes and is baptized.
You right, First the HS baptized you into christ, His death and burial and his body (rom 6, 1 cor 12 and gal 3) then after your sins have been washed you are regenerated. and he enters you.

and??

Your teaching a gospel of works. We are saved by grace period.. but it is only recieved by faith. not of works lest anyone should boast

stop boasting of how good you are because you went to get baptized. and boast in Christ..
Did Naaman boast that he dipped in Jordan? No. He boasted that the Lord cleansed his leprosy. I do not boast in my baptism. I boast in that the Lord removed my sins when I was baptized. And I want that same redemption for everyone else. Because the command to be baptized was not just to me (as it was to Naaman), but is to every person on Earth. It is in baptism that we die to sin (Rom 6:1-7). It is in baptism that our sins are cut from us (Col 2:11-14). It is in baptism that we are united to Christ's death and resurrection (Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-7). It is in baptism that we are clothed with Christ and become children of God (Gal 3:26-27). It is in baptism that we are made pure, spotless, and without blemish (Eph 5:26-27). It is in baptism that we receive new, clean conscience (1 Pet 3:21).
 
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Doug Brents

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I never said that "believe" (pisteuo) in those passages of Scripture that I cited were merely "mental assent" belief, although in James 2:19, we read that the demons "believe" (same Greek word - pisteuo) "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not "believe" (pisteuo) in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved.
You don't have to have said it explicitly. It is the context of what you are saying. We don't have to do anything, just believe. But that is not what Scripture says.
So, depending on the context, it can at times mean mental assent, as in James 2:19, but believes goes beyond "mental assent" in Acts 16:31. The demons are not saved. Do you understand the difference between merely believing in your "head" and believing in your heart that God raised Him from the dead? (Romans 10:9,10) The demons believe "that it happened" (mental assent belief) and saved believers trust in what happened for salvation. Big difference!
The difference is that the demons do not take action on that belief. They refuse (or are incapable of) to submit to God's authority. We, on the other hand, are capable and are called to submit to His authority and commands. He says that salvation is received when we are baptized in water (1 Pet 3:21, Rom 6:1-7). It is in the action of being baptized that our sins are removed (Acts 22:16), just as it was in the action of dipping the seventh time that Naaman's leprosy was removed. And in the action of marching around the city the seventh time on the seventh day that the walls of Jericho fell down (not by the power of the marching feet, or the sound of the trumpet, but by the power of God when the people obeyed what He said.
Faith demonstrates that it's not dead by actions/works, but we are saved by faith in Christ at it's origin and not by actions/works which are produced afterwards. (Ephesians 2:8,9)
That is not what Scripture says. Rom 10:9-10 is explicit that the physical action of confessing Jesus with the mouth (verbal and public confession (claiming) of Jesus as Lord) RESULTS IN (meaning it must come before) salvation being received. This means that this action of faith (along with repentance and baptism) are actions of faith that must be produced before salvation is received.
In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) You have the tail wagging the dog. The cart before the horse.
Already dealt with this false comparison. It was God's breathing the soul into man that gave man life (Gen 2:7). "Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living person."
In James 2:14, we read of one who SAYS/CLAIMS he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!
Precisely. And one who claims to have faith but does not obey the one in whom he claims to have faith is lying. Would the walls of Jericho have fallen down if the people had just believed, but not marched around the city? No, obedience to the command that God says LEADS TO/RESULTS IN receiving His blessing must be done in order to receive His blessing.
In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)
This is a nice dodge, but it is still wrong. A person is initially accounted as righteous by God when that person demonstrates their faith through obedience to what God says LEADS TO/RESULTS IN receiving His blessing.
The only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony* Confession is already implied or assumed. (Romans 10:8-10)
This is a faulty conclusion based on bad logic and poor understanding of the Scriptures.
The ONLY proper conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that our obedience to God's command is still necessary today, just as it was in the OT.
I never said that we are saved the moment that we merely believe "mental assent" that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened." Even the demons believe that. Saving faith also includes trust and reliance in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.
What does that "trust and reliance" look like? It looks like baptism in water, trusting God to keep His word and remove our sins in baptism just as He said He would.

You are adding nothing new to this discussion. If all you are going to do is rehash the same old arguments that have been debunked already, and simply reference posts from the past that have already been shown to be full of error, then there is no need to continue. Your heart is still hard and unwilling to come to understand the truth. I pray that God will open your heart before it is too late for the ones you teach.
 
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Doug Brents

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Rom 6:3 reads , O are you IGNORANT that as many as were BAPTIZO INTO Christ Jesus were BAPTIZED into His DEATH ??

The Greek word WATER // HUDOR is not in the Greek TEXT neither >
The correct translation should have been, "Or do you not know that all of us who have been immersed into Christ Jesus have been immersed into His death?" Immersed in what? Water, just as 1 Pet 3:21 says; just as Acts 8:36 demonstrates.
If WATER BAPTISM is required , why was Jesus BAPTIZED ??

dan p
Jesus was baptized in water "to fulfill all righteousness". Not because He had sin, but as an example for us.
 
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Fervent

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Can Christ save us apart from baptism? Yes
Does Christ save people apart from baptism? Probably
Should we depend on Christ's exceeding mercy to save us apart from baptism? No

At the end of the day, Christ will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. It will probably be more than a lot of people are expecting, but that's no reason to not take part in the sacraments. So if baptism is an option, then baptism should be done.
 
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Doug Brents

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So, everything is riding on water baptism according to your theology?
No. Everything is riding on God's promises.
Immersed in H20 or condemned according to you?
Already condemned, according to Scripture (John 3:18), and the only way back into fellowship with God is through Christ (John 14:6). The only way to get "in Christ" is through water baptism (John 3:5, 1 Pet 3:21, Mark 16:16, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, etc.).
That would render the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ IN-sufficient to save. Yet Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:24-28) No supplements needed.
God's power was sufficient to topple the walls of Jericho without the nation doing anything, but they were required to march around the walls in faith anyway. God's power was sufficient to cleanse Naaman's leprosy, but he was required to dip seven times anyway. The actions of the person do not supplement the power of God, nor do they add to the finished work of Christ. But the result of the blessing is not received until the actions of faith that God commanded that LEAD TO/RESULT IN receiving His blessing are done.
So, according to your theology, what about someone who receives Christ through faith on their death bed with no opportunity to receive water baptism before death? Will they be condemed?
It is God's place to make that determination. I cannot teach on the "what if"s. But I would have to say that according to Scripture that person would probably not be saved. The people on the outside of the Ark were on their "death's dead", yet none of them were saved.
Also, what about believers who have been water baptized but don't believe that water baptism was the cause of receiving remission of sins? Will they be condemned according to your theology?
Again, that concept is not covered in Scripture, so I can't answer you. It is incumbent on the teacher to know the truth, and to teach the truth before we get to the point where that becomes an issue.
 
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Doug Brents

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But God does not have to use water. God is fully capable of immersing us into Christ without water.
He is. He could have set it up so we receive salvation by walking under a tree (He was crucified on a tree, after all). But that is not how He set it up. He says that those who believe the Gospel and are baptized (in water, 1 Pet 3:21) will be saved. Everyone else is already condemned.
Saying it must be through water is limiting God.
No, it is accepting the limits God placed on His blessing.
No, they were not baptized into the cloud and sea. they were baptized into Moses. The same way we are baptized into Christ in the his death and body

1 Corinthians 10:2
all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,

Moses was the head,

Just like Christ is the head.
They were baptized "and they all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea" (1 Cor 10:2). We are baptized into Christ in water.
 
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Lost Witness

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I was baptized by the Lord nearly seven years before I was ever able to be baptized by water.
But I do believe we should be baptized in water as well as the Lord was and many whom were baptized by the holy spirit of God were seen being baptized by water as well.
These things we do because the Lord did them.
I know the theif on the cross wasn't baptized by water
Though he couldn't as he was nailed to a cross alongside the Lord when his eyes were opened to the truth of who Jesus was.
So I say in every instance baptism by water as is exampled in scripture isn't possible though unless your unable to in such a way as the theif was...i.e your last moments of life...then you should indeed be baptized in water.
Because the Lord is our example.
Its not the world.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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A changed life is not evidence of salvation (Matt 7:23).
actually yes it is, A lack of changed life is evidence of no salvation. see james 2
Being a disciple does not indicate salvation either. Disciple simply means student/learner. A person can be a student, in fact they must be a student, before they receive salvation. Salvation is the degree, the diploma, received after a certain amount of learning and application have been demonstrated. Baptism is the graduation ceremony in which salvation is conferred upon the student. Graduation does not stop the learning.
Nice try.
John did not say anything about "belief". He talked about "pistis", which means "faith". Faith is not just intellectual assent (belief). Faith is belief in action; the evidence and substance that proves (as if in a court of law) what we truly believe. God speaking through John did not mention baptism, because John's Gospel came many years after Mark's Gospel was already in wide circulation.
I am saved by grace through faith period.. Not of works.. lest I should boast.

You want to boast of your baptism. feel free. The jews boasted in their circumcision. Paul set them straight calling them fools. You should heed Paul's words. they are just as applicable to you..


No, it is those who repent.
All of you repent, and the one who repents must be baptized.
No. the word baptize has absolutely nothing to do with the word repent. language rules forbid this..

And he did not say they must be baptized. He pleaded with them to be baptized.


And the ones who repent and are baptized will receive forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. You see, forgiveness and the gift of the Spirit both go to the one who believes and is baptized.
No. again, the rules of language rejects this definition It does not work in the english or the greek

again, And peter told them, repent, and let every one ot THEM be baptized.

it makes no sense, because it is not what peter said.
Did Naaman boast that he dipped in Jordan? No. He boasted that the Lord cleansed his leprosy. I do not boast in my baptism. I boast in that the Lord removed my sins when I was baptized. And I want that same redemption for everyone else. Because the command to be baptized was not just to me (as it was to Naaman), but is to every person on Earth. It is in baptism that we die to sin (Rom 6:1-7). It is in baptism that our sins are cut from us (Col 2:11-14). It is in baptism that we are united to Christ's death and resurrection (Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-7). It is in baptism that we are clothed with Christ and become children of God (Gal 3:26-27). It is in baptism that we are made pure, spotless, and without blemish (Eph 5:26-27). It is in baptism that we receive new, clean conscience (1 Pet 3:21).
lol. Hey, again, you want to boast in your baptism as the jew boasted in his circumcision. feel free.

I was circumcized and baptized by the hand of God. (col 2) with the spiritual baptism by the spirit who raised him from the dead
 
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Doug Brents

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Can Christ save us apart from baptism? Yes
Yes.
Does Christ save people apart from baptism? Probably
No. He said that He won't. John 3:5
Should we depend on Christ's exceeding mercy to save us apart from baptism? No
Absolutely not.
At the end of the day, Christ will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. It will probably be more than a lot of people are expecting, but that's no reason to not take part in the sacraments. So if baptism is an option, then baptism should be done.
This is not about whether or not baptism should be done. All of us here agree (I think they all do) that baptism is absolutely a command (Matt 28:19). What we are debating is whether we are saved before we are baptized, or during baptism. I think Scripture is clear that we are saved during baptism.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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The correct translation should have been, "Or do you not know that all of us who have been immersed into Christ Jesus have been immersed into His death?" Immersed in what? Water, just as 1 Pet 3:21 says; just as Acts 8:36 demonstrates.
Oh I agree.

Immerses in CHRIST, and immersed in HIS DEATH,

It does not say immersed in water in christ or immersed in water in his death.. again, nonsensical. It is christ the actual object one is immersed into. not water
Jesus was baptized in water "to fulfill all righteousness". Not because He had sin, but as an example for us.
No. He was baptized in water so the father in heaven could show he was the one who baptized with the spirit.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Can Christ save us apart from baptism? Yes
Does Christ save people apart from baptism? Probably
Should we depend on Christ's exceeding mercy to save us apart from baptism? No
why not?

There is one gospel.

It is either faith plus works (faith plus water baptism)

or it is grace through faith not works (no water baptism)

it can not be both ways. they would be different gospel. paul said this is anathema
At the end of the day, Christ will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. It will probably be more than a lot of people are expecting, but that's no reason to not take part in the sacraments. So if baptism is an option, then baptism should be done.
How many gospels are there?
 
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Fervent

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Yes.

No. He said that He won't. John 3:5
Maybe, but He's shown that His mercies often exceed what those who think they know the Scriptures well believe.
Absolutely not.

This is not about whether or not baptism should be done. All of us here agree (I think they all do) that baptism is absolutely a command (Matt 28:19). What we are debating is whether we are saved before we are baptized, or during baptism. I think Scripture is clear that we are saved during baptism.
That's above my ken. I'll leave when and where a person is saved up to God. If everyone agrees its a command, then what difference does it make when it happens? Though I happen to agree with your interpretation of Scripture if I were to point to a moment, I'm not sure it matters so long as we all agree on what needs to be done and what someone believes doesn't impinge on Trinity or the deity of Christ.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Already condemned, according to Scripture (John 3:18),
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

No water baptism is involved.


and the only way back into fellowship with God is through Christ (John 14:6). The only way to get "in Christ" is through water baptism (John 3:5, 1 Pet 3:21, Mark 16:16, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, etc.).
lol.. So how many times does one need baptized?? You making me laugh my friend.
God's power was sufficient to topple the walls of Jericho without the nation doing anything, but they were required to march around the walls in faith anyway. God's power was sufficient to cleanse Naaman's leprosy, but he was required to dip seven times anyway. The actions of the person do not supplement the power of God, nor do they add to the finished work of Christ. But the result of the blessing is not received until the actions of faith that God commanded that LEAD TO/RESULT IN receiving His blessing are done.

It is God's place to make that determination. I cannot teach on the "what if"s. But I would have to say that according to Scripture that person would probably not be saved. The people on the outside of the Ark were on their "death's dead", yet none of them were saved.

Again, that concept is not covered in Scripture, so I can't answer you. It is incumbent on the teacher to know the truth, and to teach the truth before we get to the point where that becomes an issue.
Just teach John.

As moses lifted the serpent. so must the son of man be lifted. that whoever believes (soo. he did not say and is baptised) will never perish but live forever.


Go back to moses. The people that looked at the serpent trusted God. and in this faith, they looked at what could save them.

no different today. Those who trust God look to the cross.

now sadly. to many teach it is the cross plus works (whatever work they claim is required) in showing they do not trust the cross. but in reality they trust their work.
 
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Fervent

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why not?

There is one gospel.

It is either faith plus works (faith plus water baptism)

or it is grace through faith not works (no water baptism)

it can not be both ways. they would be different gospel. paul said this is anathema

How many gospels are there?
There is one gospel, certainly. But what is faith without action? Baptism isn't a work, it's not something we do to earn God's favor. It's faith in action, as to have faith is to trust that what the Lord commands is truly salvific.
 
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