Do we need to be baptized in order to be saved ?

[Eternally Grateful]

I see, does this mean that, if I read Matthew, Mark and Luke, I should also expect Christ to be teaching "salvation by grace through faith. not of works", as well?

Well if he does not. Can the Bible be trusted?

 

[Guojing]

Well if he does not. Can the Bible be trusted?

How about another way to understand the gospel of John?

The author of John focused on teaching Israel to believe that Jesus is their promised Messiah, the son of God (John 1:12, John 20:30-31).

Thus, those verses you quoted from him had him focused on believing in him, his identity.

But he left out all the works requirement, law requirement etc, not because he was trying to teach the nation of Israel that "salvation by grace through faith. not of works", but because that was not his focus.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

How about another way to understand the gospel of John?

The author of John focused on teaching Israel to believe that Jesus is their promised Messiah, the son of God (John 1:12, John 20:30-31).

Thus, those verses you quoted from him had him focused on believing in him, his identity.

But he left out all the works requirement, law requirement etc, not because he was trying to teach the nation of Israel that "salvation by grace through faith. not of works", but because that was not his focus.

How about just taking Jesus at his word.

The gospel of John was written to jew and greek alike. Just like his epistles were/

chapter one, how did we become children of God - through faith
chapter three how are we born again, through faith
chapter 4. How do we recieve the gift of water that gives us eternal life. In faith ask
chapter 5. How do we pass from death to life and pass from judgment, see and believe (have faith)
chapter 6, what is the bread of life that one can eat and never die? Jesus, how do we eat it. By faith. What do we get. We will never hunger, never thirst, live forever, never die, have eternal life passé from death to life and have Gods promise he will raise us from the dead.

I can go on and on and on. There are no works requirments, if their were. Then he would have told the people in john, Namely his disciples who were going to go give the gospel to the nations.

You want to work for your salvation, feel free. But please do not mock the cross of christ by telling others they have to do the same. That would make you no different than the jews who crucified christ. Because he told theim their works could not save them

 

[Danthemailman]

Apart from works of merit, of the Law, yes. Apart from any works whatsoever, NO!

False. In an effort to "get around" the fact that man is saved by grace through faith apart from works in general and not merely specific works of the law (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..) those who peddle salvation by works/works righteousness and want to boast in their personal definition of non-boastful works will typically say that we are saved by "these" works (good works) and just not "those" works (works of the law) but that argument is bogus.

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "work of faith/good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18). In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. So, when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works from the law.

If that were true, then Rom 10:9-10 is a lie, because Rom 10:9-10 makes it very clear that the physical action of confessing Jesus as Lord with the mouth RESULTS IN receiving salvation.

If we are not saved until after water baptism, then Romans 10:9,10 is a lie. Also, someone who is mute (unable to perform the physical action of speaking with their mouth} would remain lost according to your erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10. You remain confused and continue to turn confession into a work for salvation, separate from believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead when Romans 10:8 places confessing with our mouth and believing in our heart TOGETHER. Not as two separate steps to salvation but chronologically together. Scripture makes it clear that salvation is a free gift received through faith "apart from works." (Romans 4:5-6; 6:23; Ephesians 2:8,9)

No, I do not trust in what I do or have done.

Yes, you do.

I trust in what God has said in His Word.

According to your eisegesis.

I will keep pointing you to Naaman and the other examples of this that are in the OT until you get the point. Naaman did not trust in the water of Jordan to heal him. If he did, then he would have gone to Jordan instead of coming to the prophet of the Lord. But what did the prophet tell him? "Go dip in Jordan seven times." Was he healed when he decided to go to Jordan? Was he healed when he left toward Jordan? No. Was he healed when he had dipped once? No. Was he healed when he had done all that the prophet of God told him? YES!!!!!!

Once again, Naaman received healing from leprosy (and not remission of sins) in the water of Jordan, so your argument remains moot.

Trust in the Lord is not just believing in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Believing in Jesus Christ for salvation is trusting in the Lord unto salvation. (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29.40.47; 11:25.26; Acts 10:43; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1-2; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13 etc..). Not to be confused with trusting in the Lord in our Christian Walk AFTER we have been saved.

It is doing what He commanded, and trusting that He will do as He promised He would do.

According to what the Lord said and not according to your eisegesis that culminates in salvation by works. (Romans 11:6)

There is no faith that does not include action/works. Any "faith" that does not include action/works is dead, meaningless, and worthless.

Actions/works are the fruit of faith and not the essence of faith. Any faith that does not result in producing evidential works is an empty profession of faith/dead faith. (James 2:14) You don't seem to make a distinction between faith AND works which explains why you teach salvation by faith "conjoined" with works. For Roman Catholics it's faith "infused" with works. You take both faith AND works, wrap them up in a package together then simply stamp faith on the package. Prior to my conversion, been there, done that.

Even your "deeper faith" does not really trust in Jesus for salvation if it does not do what He said to do.

My deeper faith trusts exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation, and I did what He said to do for salvation. (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. You on the other hand trust in "water and works" for salvation based on your eisegesis according to what Jesus said.

Those passages do not invalidate other Scriptures. It doesn't matter that these particular passages of Scripture do not say that baptism is essential to receive salvation.

It absolutely does matter that these passages of Scripture (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) along with many other passages of Scripture (Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Ephesians 2:8,9; 1 John 5:13 etc..) do not say that baptism is essential to receive salvation and all of these passages of Scripture make it crystal clear that we receive eternal life through believing in Him "apart from water baptism."

There are passages that do, and that makes it so. PERIOD.

"On the surface" they only "appear" to teach that. By the time you read those passages of Scripture in context and properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture we discover otherwise.

I have, and I do. You explain away 1 Pet 3:21, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, etc. because it does not agree with your preconception which is caused by your misreading many Scriptures.

I did not explain away those passages of Scripture. I read them in context and properly harmonized Scripture with Scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. Baptism is a symbol of salvation in that it pictures Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with Him in these experiences. In reality, believers are saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Once you figure that out these passages of Scripture on baptism will become clearer. Baptism put it in it's proper place, subsequent to salvation through faith in Christ as all works must be. (Ephesians 2:8,9) This does not remove good works (including water baptism) from the Christian life, it just puts them in their proper place, subsequent to regeneration and salvation. (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; 15:7-9; Ephesians 1:13)

BTW: In case I did not already mention this. The Greek word “antitupon,” as used in I Peter 3:21, is “an adjective, used as a noun,” and denotes, in the NT, “a corresponding type,” being “said of baptism.” The circumstances of the flood, the ark and its occupants, formed a type, and baptism forms “a corresponding type.” Noah was saved by the ark “through (via) water.” Water was not the means of their salvation, but the ark. (Hebrews 11:7) The ark is what both delivered and preserved them, salvation.

You did not refute my arguments. You gave your false understanding of those Scriptures because you preconception causes you to ignore clear Scripture.

You are the master of irony.

The argument is about God's blessing. It does not matter whether it is healing or removing sin, as Jesus pointed out in Matt 9:5-6.

It matters because salvation is a free gift that is received through faith and not a blessing based on works. (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8,9)

Wrong. the Gentiles' sins were not forgiven when the Holy Spirit fell on them in power. The Holy Spirit fell on them the same way He fell on the Jews "in the beginning" (which was on Pentecost) (Acts 11:15). The Apostles and the other disciples already had the indwelling of the Spirit from John 20:22, so the receiving of the Spirit on Pentecost was not about the indwelling (and forgiveness of sin) of the Holy Spirit, and neither was it with the Gentiles in Acts 10.

This is absolutely false and blatantly dishonest. Compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47) These Gentiles' sins were absolutely forgiven when they believed in Him (Jesus Christ) for salvation. (Romans 10:43)

In Acts 11:15, we read that the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, (compare with Acts 16:31) who was I that I could withstand God?” *So, these Gentiles believed, received the Holy Spirit and were saved BEFORE water baptism.

These Gentiles also spoke in tongues, and we do not receive the spiritual gift of tongues, which is only for the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:4-12), without first receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit (indwelling, regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit). We don't receive "a" gift "of" the Holy Spirit until we first receive "the gift of the Holy Spirit" and the house of Cornelius clearly received the gift of the Holy Spirit before they were water baptized.

Romans 8:9 - But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. If one has received the Holy Spirit, they "belong" to Christ. To belong to Christ does not describe the condition of a lost unbeliever but a saved believer and such was the case of the house of Cornelius before they were water baptized.

1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. Because they received the Holy Spirit, these Gentiles abided in God and God abided in them. To abide in God and to have God abide in you does not describe the condition of a lost unbeliever but a saved believer and such was the case of the house of Cornelius before they were water baptized.

In Acts 15:7, we read - And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. (not by baptism)

 

[Danthemailman]

Doug Brents said: Wrong. Paul was not forgiven of his sins until he washed them away in baptism (Acts 22:16). He was still in sin when Ananias came to him three days after his experience on the Road. The fact that God told Ananias that He was going to commission Saul to be His messenger even before He had forgiven Saul's sins is of no consequence. Saul was not fit to carry out his commissioning until he had spent three years learning from Jesus directly in Arabia and in Damascus (Gal 1:11, 17).

False. Another "on the surface" interpretation that negates multiple other passages of Scripture. As Greek scholar AT Robertson explains:

By baptized (βαπτισα). First aorist middle (causative), not passive, Get thyself baptized (Robertson, Grammar, p. 808). Cf. 1 Corinthians 10:2. Submit yourself to baptism. So as to απολουσα, Get washed off as in 1 Corinthians 6:11. It is possible, as in Acts 2:38, to take these words as teaching baptismal remission or salvation by means of baptism, but to do so is in my opinion a complete subversion of Paul's vivid and picturesque language. As in Romans 6:4-6 where baptism is the picture of death, burial and resurrection, so here baptism pictures the change that had already taken place when Paul surrendered to Jesus on the way (verse Acts 22:10). Baptism here pictures the washing away of sins by the blood of Christ.

Acts 22 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Acts 22, Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament is a rich resource for understanding Scripture, delving into original language and cultural nuances.

www.studylight.org

*It's also possible to take the words of Jesus in John 6:53-56 as teaching cannibalism (false doctrine of transubstantiation) but we know that is ridiculous and contrary to the rest of Scripture. This is why it's critical to properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine. No scripture is to be interpreted in isolation from the totality of scripture. Practically speaking, a singular and obscure verse is to be subservient to multiple and clear verses, and not vice versa.

I find it interesting that there are no passages of Scripture that clearly state we are saved by grace through baptism or that whoever is not baptized will be condemned. In all of these passages of Scripture on baptism that you cite, notice there is always something else mentioned with baptism or an added clause. For example, believes and is baptized in Mark 16:16 followed by but he who does not believe will be condemned. Repent is mentioned with baptism in Acts 2:38, calling on the name of the Lord is mentioned in Acts 22:16 and not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ etc..

In regard to Acts 22:16, Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary makes not of the importance of the Greek in Ananias' statement. When Ananias tells Paul to "arise, be baptized, wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord," the tense of the last command is literally "having called" (aorist middle participle). "Calling on [epikalesamenos] --- 'having (that is, after having) called on,' referring the confession of Christ which preceded baptism." [Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, vol. 3 pg. 160]. Kenneth Wuest picks up on this Greek nuance and translates the verse as follows: "And now, why are you delaying? Having arisen, be baptized and wash away your sins, having previously called upon His Name." (Acts 22:16, Wuest's Expanded NT).

Excellent article on Acts 22:16 - Acts 22:16--Baptism Essential for Salvation?

Irrelevant.

Again, irrelevant. He was empowered by the Holy Spirit, but he was not yet forgiven, nor was he saved. As we see from Acts 22:16, even after he had received his sight, Ananias still told Saul to make haste and be baptized and wash away his sins.

I already proved otherwise.

It is true that he didn't mention Ananias to the king. Why? Because it was not relevant to the pace of the story he was telling the king. When you talk to a king, you don't belabor details like that. You stay on the most pressing, important details, and you move the story along.

My points are relevant. They just don't accommodate your narrative.

And again, the faith of the nation was demonstrated in their obedience. It is not about sin, but about demonstrating that God requires obedience to His command before His blessing are received.

By their obedience they received a blessing and not the free gift of eternal life. Big difference!

But that is not all the Spirit says about faith in that passage. James 2:20, 22, 24, and 26 all state that faith without action is dead, false, meaningless, and really nonexistent.

Faith has an origin before works are produced "out of" faith. In Ephesians 2:5, we read - even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Then we read in Ephesians 2:10 that we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus (FIRST) then unto/for good works.. That is the order. Works do not cause our faith to become alive. Works show that our faith is alive. (James 2:18) You need to remember that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Be sure to go back and read post #358 again from an unbiased perspective.

Rom 10:8 does not change anything. Yes, confess/believe, believe/confess, so what. Both of them, and repentance precede the reception of salvation (as does baptism). Baptism does not follow after the reception of salvation because it is IN baptism that forgiveness is received.

Romans 10:8 changes everything and repentance precedes confess/believe, believe/confess. Water baptism "follows" and water baptism is not even mentioned in Romans 10:8-10 but that doesn't seem to matter to you because it does not fit your narrative.

Tell me, does God's word say that belief AND the verbal confession of Jesus as Lord RESULT in salvation being received? If it does (and it does), then your argument is completely meaningless.

It does because the word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER (Romans 10:8) and not because we believed one day (but remained lost) and finally confessed Christ next week and were finally saved next week (work for salvation). You are so determined to DO something to help Jesus save you instead of trusting in Jesus Christ alone to save you. It's sad.

Eisegesis, my poor, deluded friend, is what you are doing. You have formulated this false idea that there is absolutely no action that humans must (or even can) take that leads to the reception of salvation. As has been demonstrated, there are many passages that put the lie to that misconception. This means that your whole argument is base on your eisegesis, and not accurate Biblical study.

You are the master of irony.

It is those who once knew the truth but have fallen away who are the hardest to teach.

They went out from us, but they were not of us. (1 John 2:19)

I have known the truth since I was 14, and have held firm to it, and the Lord God who gave it to me, since then. I have not wavered from this doctrine to that doctrine to another doctrine, as you appear to have done.

I've heard that same argument about knowing the truth from a young age from a variety of people who attend your church and various other churches (including false religions and cults) that all teach different doctrines and you can't all be right. I have not wavered from doctrine to doctrine since my conversion. My beliefs on essential Christian doctrine have remained the same ever since. I was born and raised in a church that taught a false gospel and I also temporarily attended another church that taught a false gospel as well, but since my conversion, I continue to cling to the true gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) that is the power of God unto salvation for everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16)

I continue to pray for you daily, that you will come to know the truth, accept it, and teach it to others.

That prayer has been answered many years ago, but that will be my continued prayer for you.

The false doctrine you teach on this forum will leave them lost for eternity.

How so? Even according to YOUR gospel, I'm saved. I have repented. I have confessed with my mouth that Jesus is Lord and I believe in my heart that God has raised Him from the dead and I have received water baptism. So, what's the problem according to YOUR gospel? I must actually trust in my baptism for salvation? I must be water baptized in your church by a CoC pastor? What say you? Good grief! You seem to have more faith in water baptism to save you than you do in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

You have the audacity to judge me as condemned (and that judgment call is well above your paygrade) when I know without a doubt that I was born again several years ago when I received Christ through faith. Prior to my conversion, while still attending a false religion that taught salvation by works, I had absolutely no assurance of salvation. After my conversion, it felt like 200lbs had fallen off my shoulders! I felt like I had just woken up and the light finally came on! Praise God!

Now I finally have assurance of salvation. (1 John 5:11-13) Upon my conversion, I will never forget how prior to my conversion, multiple people had tried to share the gospel with me, but the truth of the gospel just went right over my head because I was trusting in works salvation at that time. Sound familiar? Right after I was saved, everything those people who shared the gospel with me prior to my conversion came right back to me and now I could finally say, "that's what he was trying to share with me, that's what she was trying to say, that's what they meant." Praise God! I finally get it!

I then went on to share the gospel with my family and friends and as a result, my wife, son along with my brother-in-law and sister-in-law came to receive Christ through faith. Praise the Lord!

 

[Danthemailman]

It is your misunderstanding of what it means to "believe" that has you barking up the wrong tree.

You are the master of irony.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are the master of irony.

Sad so many want to boast in self and not God

 

[Doug Brents]

Tell me, does God's word say that belief AND the verbal confession of Jesus as Lord RESULT in salvation being received? If it does (and it does), then your argument is completely meaningless.

It does

Thank you for your honesty.

because the word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER (Romans 10:8) and not because we believed one day (but remained lost) and finally confessed Christ next week and were finally saved next week (work for salvation). You are so determined to DO something to help Jesus save you instead of trusting in Jesus Christ alone to save you. It's sad.

No, no qualifications. either belief and verbal confession come before salvation is received, or Scripture contains a lie (and we both agree that Scripture does not lie). So here we have a physical action that is REQUIRED to be performed by man BEFORE salvation is received. This means that your "no works" doctrine doesn't have a leg to stand on.

And this is not me, or anyone else who believes the truth, trying to earn salvation, or "do something to help Jesus save us". It is complete and total surrender to His will, and trusting that through the seemingly stupid and worthless act of baptism God has chosen to save us. Does it make sense to us? No. But is it what He commanded? Yes.

 

[Danthemailman]

This means that your "no works" doctrine doesn't have a leg to stand on.

To the contrary it's your saved by works doctrine that does not have a leg to stand on. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

And this is not me, or anyone else who believes the truth, trying to earn salvation, or "do something to help Jesus save us". It is complete and total surrender to His will, and trusting that through the seemingly stupid and worthless act of baptism God has chosen to save us. Does it make sense to us? No. But is it what He commanded? Yes.

(Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 1:18-21)

 

[David Lamb]

I think Scripture is clear that we are saved during baptism.

Do you think the Ethiopian whom Philip baptized was the exception, then?:

“Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.” (Ac 8:36-38 NKJV)

So he believed on the Lord Jesus Christ before he was baptized, and such belief, the apostles said to the Philippian jailer, is the requirement for being saved.

 

[Doug Brents]

Do you think the Ethiopian whom Philip baptized was the exception, then?:

“Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.” (Ac 8:36-38 NKJV)

So he believed on the Lord Jesus Christ before he was baptized, and such belief, the apostles said to the Philippian jailer, is the requirement for being saved.

That is not an exception. The eunuch and the jailer were both saved during water baptism. Belief is a prerequisite for salvation, but it does not automatically result in salvation. If it did, then there would be no one who believed they were saved but were not (Matt 7:23). The men on Pentecost believed (Acts 2:37), and asked, "What must we do (to be saved)?" Peter didn't tell them that Jesus had done it all, there was nothing they needed to do, because they had already believed. No. What did he tell them? "Repent and be baptized in order to receive forgiveness of your sins." The same applied to the eunuch. He believed, so now he needed to be baptized in order to receive forgiveness of his sins. And the jailer was in the same position.

The condition in all of these is faith, not the American connotation of "belief" (which is merely intellectual assent). Faith is not real unless there is action along with it. It is the actions we take that complete and perfect our faith. If there are no actions, then that faith is incomplete, imperfect, dead, worthless, and meaningless.

 

[Doug Brents]

To the contrary it's your saved by works doctrine that does not have a leg to stand on. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

(Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 1:18-21)

Rom 3:24-28 - "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in God’s merciful restraint He let the sins previously committed go unpunished; 26 for the demonstration, that is, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where then is boasting? It has been excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."
Rom 4:2-6 - "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed [has faith] God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, the wages are not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes [has faith] in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the person to whom God credits righteousness apart from works"
Eph 2:8-9 - "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
Tit 3:5 - "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we did in righteousness, but in accordance with His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit"
Rom 1:16 - "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes [has faith], to the Jew first and also to the Greek."
1 Cor 1:18-21 - "For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And the understanding of those who have understanding, I will confound.”
20 Where is the wise person? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has God not made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe [has faith]."

These are great passages, and most of them specify faith as a requirement for receiving salvation, but not a single one of these verses negates the fact that we just established from Rom 10:9-10. There is an action that man MUST take, a physical action, that RESULTS IN receiving salvation. That means this action MUST be done BEFORE salvation is received (the result cannot come before the cause, the "then" never comes before the "if").

And faith is not the American connotation of "belief" (which is merely intellectual assent). Faith is not real unless there is action along with it. It is the actions we take that complete and perfect our faith. If there are no actions, then that faith is incomplete, imperfect, dead, worthless, and meaningless.

 

[Guojing]

How about just taking Jesus at his word.

The gospel of John was written to jew and greek alike. Just like his epistles were/

Jesus said twice in Matthew 10:5 and Matthew 15:24 who he was not going to

How would you reconcile those with the above statement of yours, just ignore them and focus only on John 3:16, which is actually an author added commentary?

chapter one, how did we become children of God - through faith
chapter three how are we born again, through faith
chapter 4. How do we recieve the gift of water that gives us eternal life. In faith ask
chapter 5. How do we pass from death to life and pass from judgment, see and believe (have faith)
chapter 6, what is the bread of life that one can eat and never die? Jesus, how do we eat it. By faith. What do we get. We will never hunger, never thirst, live forever, never die, have eternal life passé from death to life and have Gods promise he will raise us from the dead.

I can go on and on and on. There are no works requirments, if their were. Then he would have told the people in john, Namely his disciples who were going to go give the gospel to the nations.

How would you reconcile those interpretations of yours with 1 John, especially these verses

1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him

1 John 3:
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

If they are indeed the same author, it appears contradictory.

Do you again ignore 1 John to understand John, or do you, like what most Christians I have encounter, explain that 1 John is talking about already saved believers.

You want to work for your salvation, feel free. But please do not mock the cross of christ by telling others they have to do the same. That would make you no different than the jews who crucified christ. Because he told theim their works could not save them

I am not, I follow the apostle Paul (Romans 11:13), who indeed teaches us gentiles in 1 Cor 15:1-4 and Romans 4:5 that salvation is of grace thru faith alone, without works.

I am just curious how one can try to read Paul into the gospel of John and ignore all these contradictions.

 

[David Lamb]

That is not an exception. The eunuch and the jailer were both saved during water baptism. Belief is a prerequisite for salvation, but it does not automatically result in salvation. If it did, then there would be no one who believed they were saved but were not (Matt 7:23). The men on Pentecost believed (Acts 2:37), and asked, "What must we do (to be saved)?" Peter didn't tell them that Jesus had done it all, there was nothing they needed to do, because they had already believed. No. What did he tell them? "Repent and be baptized in order to receive forgiveness of your sins." The same applied to the eunuch. He believed, so now he needed to be baptized in order to receive forgiveness of his sins. And the jailer was in the same position.

Yet over and over again, it is said in the bible that those who truly believe on the Lord Jesus Christ are saved. Just a few examples:

“"that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (Joh 3:15-16 NKJV)

“"And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."” (Joh 6:40 NKJV)

“"To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins."” (Ac 10:43 NKJV)

The condition in all of these is faith, not the American connotation of "belief" (which is merely intellectual assent). Faith is not real unless there is action along with it. It is the actions we take that complete and perfect our faith. If there are no actions, then that faith is incomplete, imperfect, dead, worthless, and meaningless.

Not being American, I am not certain about the American connotation, but here in the UK we also have people who think that belief in Jesus Christ means merely intellectual assent that a man called Jesus lived in Judea about 2,000 years ago. The actions we take following genuine belief in Jesus Christ are manifestations of that belief, but they don't make us "more saved" than we were before

 

[ARBITER01]

The actions we take following genuine belief in Jesus Christ are manifestations of that belief, but they don't make us "more saved" than we were before

Yea our water immersion doesn't somehow "solidify" our saved status. I'm not sure where someone is getting that idea.

We should stick to what our Apostles taught instead of adding personal ideas to the mix.

 

[Danthemailman]

Rom 3:24-28 - "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption, which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in God’s merciful restraint He let the sins previously committed go unpunished; 26 for the demonstration, that is, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where then is boasting? It has been excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."

When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works from the law and teach that we are saved by "these" works (good works) but just not "those" works (works of the law). In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "work of faith" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Now please explain to me which good works could a Christian accomplish which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18) *NOWHERE does the Bible teach we are saved by grace through faith + works of any kind.

The apostle Paul does not merely limit "works" only to specific works of the law but includes works in general. In Titus 3:5, we read that it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, (literally, "of works which are done in righteousness") but according to His mercy He saved us.. and in 2 Timothy 1:9, we read that God saved us and called us with a holy calling not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Rom 4:2-6 - "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed [has faith] God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, the wages are not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes [has faith] in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the person to whom God credits righteousness apart from works"

His faith (not his works) is credited as righteousness. God credits righteousness apart from works. Crystal clear.

Eph 2:8-9 - "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Saved by grace through faith, not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one can boast. Also, crystal clear. We have nothing to boast about in of ourselves but so much to be thankful for in Christ!

Tit 3:5 - "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we did in righteousness, but in accordance with His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit"

It is not by works of righteousness which we have done, (literally, "of works which are done in righteousness") but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. (Spiritual washing or purification of the soul, accomplished by the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation).

Rom 1:16 - "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes [has faith], to the Jew first and also to the Greek."

Believes + what? Simply believes. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

1 Cor 1:18-21 - "For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And the understanding of those who have understanding, I will confound.”
20 Where is the wise person? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has God not made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe [has faith]."

Those who believe. (Compare with Acts 13:39; 15:7; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22; 4:11; 10:4; Galatians 3:22; 1 John 5:13 etc..). If salvation was by works, then God would not make so many statements in Scripture in which He promises eternal life to those who simply believe.

These are great passages, and most of them specify faith as a requirement for receiving salvation, but not a single one of these verses negates the fact that we just established from Rom 10:9-10.

Of course, those verses do not negate Romans 10:9,10 because confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8-10) So, confession is implied or assumed. Those verses do not negate other verses that only mention repentance in connection with salvation either (Luke 13:3; 24:47; Acts 3:19; 5:31; 11:18) because repentance is a change of mind (new direction of that change of mind) faith in Jesus Christ for salvation (Acts 20:21) so it's already implied or assumed as well. No so with baptism. You can repent and believe in Christ unto salvation (Acts 10:43) but not yet be water baptized. (Acts 10:44-47)

There is an action that man MUST take, a physical action, that RESULTS IN receiving salvation. That means this action MUST be done BEFORE salvation is received (the result cannot come before the cause, the "then" never comes before the "if").

You continue to ignore Romans 10:8 and are still determined to turn confession into a work for salvation. What does that look like in your church? Someone who is getting ready to be water baptized gives a profession of faith then shouts out the words "Jesus is Lord" from your 4-step check list plan of salvation? Then the CoC preacher is checking off the check list as things progress? Yet even though Romans 10:10 says believes unto righteousness/confession is made unto salvation, your church says NO! The person must still be water baptized "afterwards" and then they will finally be saved. That negates a multitude of verses in Scripture, including Romans 10:8-10)

And faith is not the American connotation of "belief" (which is merely intellectual assent).

I already explained to you in post #437 that the Greek word for belief "pisteuo" may simply mean "mental assent" belief, as we see in James 2:19 that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe "pisteuo" (same Greek word) in/on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Belief here also includes trust and reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. This is a deeper belief/faith that you cannot seem to grasp. The only thing that you seem to comprehend is "adding" works to "mental assent" belief and call that saving belief.

Faith is not real unless there is action along with it.

Action is not the origin of faith. Faith in Christ is established FIRST (Ephesians 2:5-9) and then the action/works FOLLOW. (Ephesians 2:10)

It is the actions we take that complete and perfect our faith. If there are no actions, then that faith is incomplete, imperfect, dead, worthless, and meaningless.

If no actions follow, (says/claims to have faith) then one demonstrates that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14) and not authentic faith. Simple!

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

Abraham's faith was not dead, worthless, meaningless in Genesis 15:6 when God accounted his faith for righteousness but according to your logic, Abraham's faith was dead, worthless, meaningless and remained incomplete to save him in Genesis 15:6 until many years later, after Abraham offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22 and was shown to be righteous. (James 2:21)

In Genesis 15:5-6, we read - Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it (faith, not works) to him for righteousness.

In Romans 4:2-3, we read - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.”

So, don't forget that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

 

[Doug Brents]

Yet over and over again, it is said in the bible that those who truly believe on the Lord Jesus Christ are saved. Just a few examples:

“"that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (Joh 3:15-16 NKJV)

“"And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."” (Joh 6:40 NKJV)

“"To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins."” (Ac 10:43 NKJV)

Not being American, I am not certain about the American connotation, but here in the UK we also have people who think that belief in Jesus Christ means merely intellectual assent that a man called Jesus lived in Judea about 2,000 years ago. The actions we take following genuine belief in Jesus Christ are manifestations of that belief, but they don't make us "more saved" than we were before

The word translated "belief/believe" in all of these passages is the Greek word "pistis" which means faith. Faith is not intellectual assent. Faith requires much more than "belief"; faith requires action. If there is no action, then faith is dead. It is the actions we put with "belief" that make faith genuine. These action do not "follow" genuine belief, they are part of it, and without the actions there is no genuine belief.

What actions are they that must be part of faith BEFORE salvation is received? Those actions that Scripture says LEAD TO or RESULT IN receiving salvation. Those actions are repentance (Acts 3:19), confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism (Acts 2;38, 1 Pet 3:21, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, etc.). These actions must be part of our faith, just as dipping in Jordan seven times was part of the faith that Naaman had to exhibit before he was healed of leprosy, and just as marching around the city once a day for six days and then seven times on the seventh day were required of the Israelites before the walls of Jericho fell, and just as gathering all the bottles she could find was part of the faith required of the widow who poured the oil to pay her late husband's debts, and just as giving her last meal to the prophet was required of the widow who fed the prophet through the famine. In every case the actions of faith precede the bestowing of the gift, and it is the same with the gift of salvation.

 

[Doug Brents]

When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works from the law and teach that we are saved by "these" works (good works) but just not "those" works (works of the law). In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "work of faith" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)

Yes, you can separate works of the Law from works that bring salvation, because that is exactly what Scripture does. Giving a person what is needful to the body is indeed a "good work" that follows salvation. This is what Scripture tells us. But the actions that must precede the reception of salvation are not "good works". They have no merit other than what God has said they have, and that is that they lead to or result in receiving His blessing.

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Now please explain to me which good works could a Christian accomplish which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18) *NOWHERE does the Bible teach we are saved by grace through faith + works of any kind.

Everywhere that faith is mentioned in Scripture (including those places where it is translated "belief" from the Greek "pistis") works are included. Because you cannot have faith apart from works. It is not faith plus works! It is just faith (the works are demanded by the concept of faith), for without action there is no faith to begin with.

The apostle Paul does not merely limit "works" only to specific works of the law but includes works in general. In Titus 3:5, we read that it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, (literally, "of works which are done in righteousness") but according to His mercy He saved us.. and in 2 Timothy 1:9, we read that God saved us and called us with a holy calling not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

The point he is making here is that Jesus' gift of His life for our salvation was given for us before time began. It could not possibly have been because of anything we did, because we had not even been created when He planned and set in motion the redemptive work that saves us. We were enemies of His when He gave His life for us to redeem us. So there is nothing we can do to earn what He has already done, or cause Him to do what He already planned on doing.

But to receive the benefit of what He has done, we must do what He has said leads to receiving that benefit.

His faith (not his works) is credited as righteousness. God credits righteousness apart from works. Crystal clear.

Again, his faith included his actions, because if there were no actions there would have been no faith.

Saved by grace through faith, not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one can boast. Also, crystal clear. We have nothing to boast about in of ourselves but so much to be thankful for in Christ!

Precisely, saved by grace through FAITH (faith being both intellectual assent AND the actions in response to that assent). If there is no action, then there is no faith. Think of faith as water. There must be hydrogen (belief) and oxygen (actions) to make water. If there is no oxygen, then there is no water.

It is not by works of righteousness which we have done, (literally, "of works which are done in righteousness") but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. (Spiritual washing or purification of the soul, accomplished by the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation).

This action is absolutely performed by the Holy Spirit. When does He do this? DURING WATER BAPTISM, just as 1 Pet 3:21, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-7, Acts 22:16 and many other passages tell us.

Believes + what? Simply believes. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

Has faith, and faith without action is not really faith.

Those who believe. (Compare with Acts 13:39; 15:7; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22; 4:11; 10:4; Galatians 3:22; 1 John 5:13 etc..). If salvation was by works, then God would not make so many statements in Scripture in which He promises eternal life to those who simply believe.

Not "simply believe", but have faith.

Of course, those verses do not negate Romans 10:9,10 because confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8-10)

Dan, get over this stupid meaningless argument. I have NEVER said that belief and confession of Jesus were not chronologically together. Of course they are. And they BOTH must come BEFORE salvation is received, because they both RESULT IN receiving salvation.

So, confession is implied or assumed. Those verses do not negate other verses that only mention repentance in connection with salvation either (Luke 13:3; 24:47; Acts 3:19; 5:31; 11:18) because repentance is a change of mind (new direction of that change of mind) faith in Jesus Christ for salvation (Acts 20:21) so it's already implied or assumed as well. No so with baptism. You can repent and believe in Christ unto salvation (Acts 10:43) but not yet be water baptized. (Acts 10:44-47)

No, you cannot. You want to cut these verses away from Scripture and make them independent from all the rest. But ALL of Scripture must be true at the same time. You cannot take the verses you list here and not include Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21, Gal 3:26-27, Eph 5:26-27, and the other passages that say that baptism also leads to or results in salvation being received.

You continue to ignore Romans 10:8 and are still determined to turn confession into a work for salvation. What does that look like in your church? Someone who is getting ready to be water baptized gives a profession of faith then shouts out the words "Jesus is Lord" from your 4-step check list plan of salvation?

No, Dan, I do not ignore Rom 10:8. I just don't include it because it does not say anything that changes what you have already agreed that Scripture says: that both belief and confession of Jesus both result in receiving salvation.

When someone is about to be baptized, I ask a very similar question to that which Philip asked the eunuch when they came to water: "Do you believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God?" If they respond affirmatively, then I consider that as a confession of Jesus. Sometimes they want to say it themselves. So I simply ask them, "Do you believe?" and they respond, "I believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God." It is not about them "shout[ing] out the words "Jesus is Lord"".

Then the CoC preacher is checking off the check list as things progress? Yet even though Romans 10:10 says believes unto righteousness/confession is made unto salvation, your church says NO! The person must still be water baptized "afterwards" and then they will finally be saved. That negates a multitude of verses in Scripture, including Romans 10:8-10)

No, it affirms that ALL of Scripture is equally true at the same time. Rom 10:8-10 does not mention repentance at all, yet you say it is assumed because the requirement for repentance is so clear in passages like Acts 3:19. This is true not only of repentance, but also baptism, because the requirement of baptism leading to or resulting in receiving salvation is equally as clear in passages like Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, Eph 5:26-27, Gal 3:26-27, 1 Pet 3:21, etc.

I already explained to you in post #437 that the Greek word for belief "pisteuo" may simply mean "mental assent" belief, as we see in James 2:19 that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God,"

Belief that there is one God is not the belief that is required to be saved.

but they do not believe "pisteuo" (same Greek word) in/on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved.

Precisely. They have faith (belief in action) that there is one God, but they do not have faith (belief in action) in Jesus.

Belief here also includes trust and reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. This is a deeper belief/faith that you cannot seem to grasp. The only thing that you seem to comprehend is "adding" works to "mental assent" belief and call that saving belief.

There is no trust or reliance if there is no action. That is the DEEPER belief/faith that you don't seem to grasp.

Action is not the origin of faith. Faith in Christ is established FIRST (Ephesians 2:5-9) and then the action/works FOLLOW. (Ephesians 2:10)

Not according to Scripture. Faith is established IN action. Other actions flow out from having been saved (fruit of the Spirit), but the actions that lead to/result in salvation being received are not fruits of the Spirit, they are the seeds of faith.

If no actions follow, (says/claims to have faith) then one demonstrates that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14) and not authentic faith. Simple!

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

Abraham was not saved based on the merits of his works. He was saved because he exhibited faith/trust/belief in God's promises. Sacrificing Isaac on the alter was not in any way a "good work". While it was commanded by God, it would have been murder. Abraham trusted that God would resurrect Isaac and fulfill His promise to increase his descendants through Isaac. His willingness to sacrifice Isaac was an act of faith in the promises of God. But he had exhibited faith in God long before he offered Isaac on the alter. His faith started when he left Ur when God told him to.

Abraham's faith was not dead, worthless, meaningless in Genesis 15:6 when God accounted his faith for righteousness but according to your logic, Abraham's faith was dead, worthless, meaningless and remained incomplete to save him in Genesis 15:6 until many years later, after Abraham offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22 and was shown to be righteous. (James 2:21)

Correct, as I just said, His faith in God stared from the time he left Ur. He was constantly and consistently trusting in God's direction, and trusted that God would fulfill His promises to him.

In Genesis 15:5-6, we read - Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it (faith, not works) to him for righteousness.

In Romans 4:2-3, we read - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.”

So, don't forget that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

And what does Jame say in verse 24? We are accounted as righteous by our works, not by faith alone. If there are not actions/works then the faith you claim to have is not real or effective in bringing us salvation.

 

[ViaCrucis]

"Our" theology reflects the example of Jesus in scripture. He received the filling of The Holy Spirit after He was water immersed. We follow His example and have the same experience.

This comes across as a kind of quasi-Adoptionism.

Are you confusing the descent of the Spirit at His baptism with Him being filled with the Holy Spirit?

He's the Eternal and Divine Son, the Holy Spirit is in Him. Jesus was never filled with the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit dwells in Him, even as the Father dwells in Him, because He is God the Son.

The descent of the Spirit at His baptism, just like the voice of the Father from heaven, mark the beginning of His Public Ministry.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

If that is true, then what proof do you have that it happened to you?

In modern times it is common for churches to keep records of baptisms. So if one needed material proof of one's baptism, a literal certificate of baptism is often available. However, the only proof that one needs that one is baptized is, well, the very real historical fact of one's own baptism.

The tangible proof is Word and Sacrament.

-CryptoLutheran