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Do we need to be baptized in order to be saved ?

ARBITER01

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Yes, as I said, the gospel that saves today is found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

Read that and you will realized water baptism is not necessary for salvation today.

All your doing is promoting lies. That's all I've ever seen come out of you.

Our example is Jesus. He specifically said that if we believe on Him, we would do His works. He got water immersed, so we must be water immersed also. We do this to fulfill all righteousness like He did.

As I said, let GOD be true and all men liars.
 
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Guojing

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All your doing is promoting lies. That's all I've ever seen come out of you.

Our example is Jesus. He specifically said that if we believe on Him, we would do His works. He got water immersed, so we must be water immersed also. We do this to fulfill all righteousness like He did.

As I said, let GOD be true and all men liars.

Jesus would have replied to you Matthew 15:24 if you tried to relate to him during his first coming.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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Yes, as I said, the gospel that saves today is found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

Read that and you will realized water baptism is not necessary for salvation today.
The virgin birth isn't mentioned in I Cor. 15:1-4 either. The virgin birth narratives forms the basis for the Incarnation. No incarnation and you have no Christianity.

What a dumb argument!
 
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Guojing

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The virgin birth isn't mentioned in I Cor. 15:1-4 either. The virgin is the basis for the Incarnation. No incarnation no Christianity.

What a dumb argument!

You wanna tell Paul that?

At no point in Romans to Philemon did Paul even hinted that believing in the virgin birth is necessary for salvation, or part of the gospel that saves.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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You wanna tell Paul that?

At no point in Romans to Philemon did Paul even hinted that believing in the virgin birth is necessary for salvation, or part of the gospel that saves.
You want to tell Paul from Romans to Philemon GOD BECOMING MAN has no bearing on our salvation? Jesus who is God had to become man as our substitute for our sins. Jesus who is God had to be infinite to take on all the sins of the mankind. The virgin birth gives us the GOD-MAN.
 
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The Liturgist

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I didn't know they did this ????

I were Christened like this as baby.

As an infant you were baptized in an Anglican or other traditional English church in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost? If so, you are baptized. It is not even canonical to be rebaptized.
 
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The Liturgist

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As a Lutheran I subscribe to the principle of Sola Scriptura; this does not mean, however, that I believe in what has sometimes been called Nuda Scriptura.

I am not saying something cannot be true unless it is stated explicitly in Scripture.

I am saying, however, that the idea that an unregenerate person can simply speak some kind of prayer or incantation and this act flips some kind of switch from unsaved to saved is entirely without support in the text of Sacred Scripture; it is also entirely without support in the historic faith and practice of the Church of the last two thousand years. It is a purely modern theological innovation introduced by certain neo-Protestants in the last hundred years.

The tradition of the Sinner's Prayer can be traced back to late 19th and early 20th century; operating from within the Revivalist Tradition which emerged during the 19th century religious movement known as the Second Great Awakening; of chief importance in this area is the influence and work of Charles G. Finney, Dwight L. Moody, Billy Sunday, and Bill Bright.

Scripture, and the entire history of the Christian faith, maintains that salvation is not some kind of light switch that can be flipped on and off; but instead is the multifaceted work of God operating in the world, especially in the human life, through His grace. It is the operational power of the Holy Spirit who works through gracious means, e.g. Word and Sacrament, by which God creates, works, and strengthens faith; repairs in us the damage of sin, calls us to a life of good works and repentance, and speaks to us our justification whereby, on Christ's account, we are reckoned as righteous and holy before God. Not on the basis of our own strength, ability, or merit; but on the basis of God's mercy, Christ's work, and the Holy Spirit's power.

I am, therefore, made new in Christ, by the Holy Spirit, by the grace of God through the work, activity, power, and mercy of God in what He does--through the call of the Gospel, through the comfort of Christ who died for us and rose again, through the Sacrament of Holy Baptism by which we are washed and renewed, cleansed and united to Jesus Christ and His death and resurrection, through the Holy Eucharist where we receive the very flesh and blood of the Savior who gave His life for us and who lives and reigns at the right hand of the Father, through the continual good mercy of God who absolves me of my sins through Holy Absolution. So that I, though a sinner and wretch, might boldly approach the Throne of Grace--boldly, not because I am worthy, but because Christ is worthy, and I come before God clothed with Jesus Christ and His righteousness.

-CryptoLutheran

Indeed the thought of people using the “Sinner’s Prayer” and other such practices in lieu of baptism is deeply disturbing.

It bothers me as much as the “altar call” in churches that do not have altars.
 
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The Liturgist

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You want to tell Paul from Romans to Philemon GOD BECOMING MAN has no bearing on our salvation? Jesus who is God had to become man as our substitute for our sins. Jesus who is God had to be infinite to take on all the sins of the mankind. The virgin birth gives us the GOD-MAN.

Indeed, this is a crucial point.

Denying the relevance of the Incarnation is rejection of Nicene Christianity, which is to say, the Gospel taught by the Holy Apostle Paul and the other Apostles, the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Faith.

And I think St. Paul would regard a “gospel” lacking a centrality of the incarnation of God in the person of Jesus Christ as our salvation as being another gospel which we cannot accept as per Galatians 1:8-9.
 
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concretecamper

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I was just wondering does a person need to be baptized in water in order to be saved ?
According to Scripture and Tradition, Baptism incorporates you into The Body of Christ. Baptism makes one a Christian and puts one on the path of Salvation.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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Indeed, this is a crucial point.

Denying the relevance of the Incarnation is rejection of Nicene Christianity, which is to say, the Gospel taught by the Holy Apostle Paul and the other Apostles, the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Faith.

And I think St. Paul would regard a “gospel” lacking a centrality of the incarnation of God in the person of Jesus Christ as our salvation as being another gospel which we cannot accept as per Galatians 1:8-9.
Problems with Guojing

1. He is driving a wedge between Paul's writings and the Gospels. Same HS who inspired the Gospel writers inspired Paul. Actually it was Jesus who taught Paul.
2. He has a minimalistic understanding of the term gospel. The Gospel in the wide sense are all the things God does for the salvation of mankind. All three persons of the trinity are at work here. The gospel is God's redemption action to mankind in creation, redemption, sanctification, conversion, enlightened with spiritual gifts, etc. Even judgment day is gospel for the Christian. Baptism is gospel as it has its foundation in Christ's death and resurrection (Romans 6) as does the Lord's Supper.
3. The Nicene creed is a statement of pure gospel. There is no law in creed.
 
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ARBITER01

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Indeed the thought of people using the “Sinner’s Prayer” and other such practices in lieu of baptism is deeply disturbing.

It bothers me as much as the “altar call” in churches that do not have altars.

I fail to see why you would be disturbed unless it's from some conviction.

For a very small time in my youth, my mom tried to associate me with Roman Catholicism. That never brought me any answers so that didn't last very long at all. It wasn't until 30 some people started praying on my ship for a month that GOD honed in on me at 27, and helped me reach up in faith asking for forgiveness and receiving a massive answer from our risen Lord.

It's what Jesus meant when he said we must be "born from above."
 
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The Liturgist

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I fail to see why you would be disturbed unless it's from some conviction.

For a very small time in my youth, my mom tried to associate me with Roman Catholicism.

Are you aware that like my friend @Ain't Zwinglian I am not Roman Catholic?

We who are Orthodox or Lutherans or Anglicans or Methodists or other liturgical Christians regret the extent to which Roman Catholicism may have alienated some people away from liturgical Christianity. But that does not mean traditional sacramental Christianity is wrong or incorrect.
 
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The Liturgist

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It's what Jesus meant when he said we must be "born from above."

This is accomplished in Baptism. That is the function of Baptism - to graft us into the mystical Body of Christ.
 
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th1bill

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Some say yes & some say no, i'm sort of confused here. :confused:
We are commanded to be baptized, but the Thief on the Cross did not have the opportunity to obey this command and was saved nonetheless. When Ruah indwelt my being on 1/1/1990 the first thing I did was to join a Church Fellowship and be baptized. If a person refuses baptism, using my studies to judge, I would say that person is not saved.

If they were verbally forced to be baptized, would be concerned.
 
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ARBITER01

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Are you aware that like my friend @Ain't Zwinglian I am not Roman Catholic?

We who are Orthodox or Lutherans or Anglicans or Methodists or other liturgical Christians regret the extent to which Roman Catholicism may have alienated some people away from liturgical Christianity. But that does not mean traditional sacramental Christianity is wrong or incorrect.

I think you missed my point.

The traditionalist type church that I was associated with for a very, very short time offered me no real answers. It wasn't until I looked up to heaven and asked forgiveness for my life and asked The Lord Jesus into my heart that I received a tangible answer.

That "sinners prayer" that is described in Romans does have results.
 
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Guojing

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You want to tell Paul from Romans to Philemon GOD BECOMING MAN has no bearing on our salvation? Jesus who is God had to become man as our substitute for our sins. Jesus who is God had to be infinite to take on all the sins of the mankind. The virgin birth gives us the GOD-MAN.

Are you now changing your point to "God becoming Man"?

The virgin birth is a fact, I agree
God becoming a man is a fact, I agree.

My point to you simply is "At no point in Romans to Philemon did Paul even hinted that believing in the virgin birth is necessary for salvation, or part of the gospel that saves."

If you disagree with my point, you just need to point out the scripture otherwise.
 
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The Liturgist

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The traditionalist type church that I was associated with for a very, very short time offered me no real answers


The Roman Catholic church was known to be in a state of upheaval during the timeframe when you attended, due to the adoption of the Novus Ordo Missae and other controversies, which made it very different compared to what it had been until the late 1960s or what it became after the positive influence of Pope Benedict XVI.

The experience of worship in an Eastern Orthodox Church, an Oriental Orthodox Church, a traditional Anglican church (such as the Continuing Anglican churches in the US or certain conservative parishes of the Church of England) or a confessional Lutheran church of the evangelical Catholic variety is going to be materially different from the experience you had within Roman Catholicism.

The problem with your restated point is the same one that I objected to with my initial post: in generalizing all “traditionalist-type” churches and equating them with the unpleasant experience you had in Roman Catholicism, you are engaging in something of a non-sequitur. There are numerous specific reasons why one might have an unpleasant experience in the Roman Catholic Church, even today, that would not translate over to other traditional churches (for example, there is the problem, shared by the Roman Catholic Church and many liberal mainline Protestant churches of liberal theologians and the tendency of liberal churches to alienate their members over issues related to human sexuality, for example. There were also several problems specific to the Roman Catholic Church in the 1970s including a liturgical transition, clergy who were unused to preaching or not as accomplished at preaching as they are at present, and also, it was during the 1970s that many of the worst incidents of sex abuse happened within the Roman Catholic Church: it was a dark time for our Roman Catholic friends, an era which reached its nadir when Pope Paul VI’s successor Pope John Paul I mysteriously died 33 days after taking office.

Things did improve during the staunchly anti-communist Papacy of Pope John Paul II, and during the theologically conservative and traditionalist papacy of Pope Benedict XVI, but since then under Pope Francis we’ve seen the liberal bishops reach new heights of power with the “Synodal Way” movement in Germany, for example, which is basically a pretext that seeks to change Roman Catholic doctrine on homosexuality so as to align it with the liberal Protestant churches of Western Europe, which is extremely distressing to my traditional Catholic friends.

Given all of these specific issues, my point is that you cannot prejudge all “traditional-type” churches by the experiences you had in the Roman Catholic Church in the 1970s without committing a logical fallacy of the non sequitur variety.

I also wish to be clear, in no way do I wish to diminish whatever closeness to Christ our True God you have come to experience since your unplesant encounter with Roman Catholicism. My point is merely that the experience you had in Roman Catholicism was specific to Roman Catholicism and does not automatically apply to all other churches that are sacramental or liturgical in character, a group which includes a large range of denominations which worship God in different ways and which in many cases have uniquely beautiful and distinctive forms of worship and private devotion.

I should add that I am very fond of the Salvation Army, despite the fact that it is a non-sacramental and aliturgical church, although I greatly regret its non-sacramental and aliturgical character (and I have heard that some Salvation Army clergy have begun administering Baptism and celebrating Holy Communion, which their founder originally intended, as he was a Methodist, but he was persuaded not to by his wife who was a Quaker, who subscribed to the Quaker error that these sacraments are something engaged in in a personal spiritual manner as opposed to something celebrated in the Church. But nonetheless, the beautiful worship of the Salvation army, in terms of their hymns, their brass bands, their uniforms and so on, combined with their relentless focus on charity, is extremely moving, and so I recognize them as Christians and I respect them (and it is the case that the Salvation Army does not prohibit nor discourage its members from receiving the sacraments elsewhere, which is good, but they could do better in accordance with the plain meaning of the Gospel).

The Gospel is really the heart of the matter, I should close with. Sacramental churches baptize because we are commissioned to baptize in Matthew 28:19 and equivalent pericopes in the other Gospels, and we have numerous accounts of the Holy Apostles doing this, and furthermore we celebrate the Lord’s Supper because Jesus Christ said “do this in remembrance of me until I come again” and controversially in John 6, that we must eat His Body and drink HIs blood, something which did alienate a number of Jews who were following Him, but not the eleven faithful disciples, whose faith essentially comes down to Eucharistic piety.

Furthermore, if one had any doubts about the importance of Holy Communion to the Christian life, it should be dispelled by reading 1 Corinthians, which in addition to restating the institution narrative (and the importance of tradition) in 1 Corinthians 11, in several other chapters discusses the nature of the Church as the Body of Christ, and how we are grafted onto that Body.
 
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The Liturgist

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My point to you simply is "At no point in Romans to Philemon did Paul even hinted that believing in the virgin birth is necessary for salvation, or part of the gospel that saves."

The reductionist approach you take to the Gospel is itself directly contrary to what St. Paul said about the Gospel in 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 1 Corinthians 11:2 and Galatians 1:8-9. It is clear, according to St. Paul, that the Gospel message is contained in the entire Apostolic kerygma, and not just that which came from himself, or Apollos, or any other single apostle.

You’re not going to get anywhere productive if you try to reduce the Gospel down to a few specific teachings as opposed to the dynamic experience of the Apostolic Christian faith, which our Lutheran friends are particularly eloquent in expressing the singular joy of.
 
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Guojing

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The reductionist approach you take to the Gospel is itself directly contrary to what St. Paul said about the Gospel in 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 1 Corinthians 11:2 and Galatians 1:8-9. It is clear, according to St. Paul, that the Gospel message is contained in the entire Apostolic kerygma, and not just that which came from himself, or Apollos, or any other single apostle.

You’re not going to get anywhere productive if you try to reduce the Gospel down to a few specific teachings as opposed to the dynamic experience of the Apostolic Christian faith, which our Lutheran friends are particularly eloquent in expressing the singular joy of.

If you claim my point is contradicted in those 3 passages, explain it.

No point making a claim without explaining.
 
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ARBITER01

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The Roman Catholic church was known to be in a state of upheaval during the timeframe when you attended, due to the adoption of the Novus Ordo Missae and other controversies, which made it very different compared to what it had been until the late 1960s or what it became after the positive influence of Pope Benedict XVI.

The experience of worship in an Eastern Orthodox Church, an Oriental Orthodox Church, a traditional Anglican church (such as the Continuing Anglican churches in the US or certain conservative parishes of the Church of England) or a confessional Lutheran church of the evangelical Catholic variety is going to be materially different from the experience you had within Roman Catholicism.

The problem with your restated point is the same one that I objected to with my initial post: in generalizing all “traditionalist-type” churches and equating them with the unpleasant experience you had in Roman Catholicism, you are engaging in something of a non-sequitur. There are numerous specific reasons why one might have an unpleasant experience in the Roman Catholic Church, even today, that would not translate over to other traditional churches (for example, there is the problem, shared by the Roman Catholic Church and many liberal mainline Protestant churches of liberal theologians and the tendency of liberal churches to alienate their members over issues related to human sexuality, for example. There were also several problems specific to the Roman Catholic Church in the 1970s including a liturgical transition, clergy who were unused to preaching or not as accomplished at preaching as they are at present, and also, it was during the 1970s that many of the worst incidents of sex abuse happened within the Roman Catholic Church: it was a dark time for our Roman Catholic friends, an era which reached its nadir when Pope Paul VI’s successor Pope John Paul I mysteriously died 33 days after taking office.

Things did improve during the staunchly anti-communist Papacy of Pope John Paul II, and during the theologically conservative and traditionalist papacy of Pope Benedict XVI, but since then under Pope Francis we’ve seen the liberal bishops reach new heights of power with the “Synodal Way” movement in Germany, for example, which is basically a pretext that seeks to change Roman Catholic doctrine on homosexuality so as to align it with the liberal Protestant churches of Western Europe, which is extremely distressing to my traditional Catholic friends.

Given all of these specific issues, my point is that you cannot prejudge all “traditional-type” churches by the experiences you had in the Roman Catholic Church in the 1970s without committing a logical fallacy of the non sequitur variety.

I also wish to be clear, in no way do I wish to diminish whatever closeness to Christ our True God you have come to experience since your unplesant encounter with Roman Catholicism. My point is merely that the experience you had in Roman Catholicism was specific to Roman Catholicism and does not automatically apply to all other churches that are sacramental or liturgical in character, a group which includes a large range of denominations which worship God in different ways and which in many cases have uniquely beautiful and distinctive forms of worship and private devotion.

I should add that I am very fond of the Salvation Army, despite the fact that it is a non-sacramental and aliturgical church, although I greatly regret its non-sacramental and aliturgical character (and I have heard that some Salvation Army clergy have begun administering Baptism and celebrating Holy Communion, which their founder originally intended, as he was a Methodist, but he was persuaded not to by his wife who was a Quaker, who subscribed to the Quaker error that these sacraments are something engaged in in a personal spiritual manner as opposed to something celebrated in the Church. But nonetheless, the beautiful worship of the Salvation army, in terms of their hymns, their brass bands, their uniforms and so on, combined with their relentless focus on charity, is extremely moving, and so I recognize them as Christians and I respect them (and it is the case that the Salvation Army does not prohibit nor discourage its members from receiving the sacraments elsewhere, which is good, but they could do better in accordance with the plain meaning of the Gospel).

The Gospel is really the heart of the matter, I should close with. Sacramental churches baptize because we are commissioned to baptize in Matthew 28:19 and equivalent pericopes in the other Gospels, and we have numerous accounts of the Holy Apostles doing this, and furthermore we celebrate the Lord’s Supper because Jesus Christ said “do this in remembrance of me until I come again” and controversially in John 6, that we must eat His Body and drink HIs blood, something which did alienate a number of Jews who were following Him, but not the eleven faithful disciples, whose faith essentially comes down to Eucharistic piety.

Furthermore, if one had any doubts about the importance of Holy Communion to the Christian life, it should be dispelled by reading 1 Corinthians, which in addition to restating the institution narrative (and the importance of tradition) in 1 Corinthians 11, in several other chapters discusses the nature of the Church as the Body of Christ, and how we are grafted onto that Body.

You really assume too much, and think too much into things. Becoming a walking library is not the end result of Christianity, but it is a sure fire way to never become a walking revival to those around you who need that from GOD the most.

Anyways,......

Any church that has a requirement of membership associated with water immersion I tend to group up under the traditionalist banner, even the catholic-light types that used to be mainline protestant. They started out with the fire of GOD but extinguished it years ago.

What started this debate between you and I was my use of Romans 10 and your disturbed position over it,...

Rom 10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:
,Rom 10:10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Notice,.......... that salvation is stated here by confession. The same salvation that you claim is available when someone is water immersed., of which I have and do disagree.

When a church overlooks this stated salvation by faith and instead considers salvation another way, ie through water immersion, I consider that church a traditional church, since they obviously want to follow a church tradition instead of scripture.

Anyways, that's enough.
 
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