DO We Have Free Will?

[samcarternx]

If the will of God is summed up in loving God and man which Jesus said it was, then sin is failing to love God or man. James said to know to do good and do it not is sin. Exactly how is my view of sin too limited and please avoid bringing the devil or Satan in to confuse the matter. Just stay with what we do or do not do that is sin. So you believe Paul was chief of sinners after he was forgiven? It is a mistake to say I am not responsible for my failure to love others because God is responsible. It is also error and a mistake to try to excuse yourself with the Devil made me do it. Neither God nor the devil make you chose to be unloving and the only sin that results in the destruction of your soul is yours--not Satan's, not Adam's, and certainly not God who does not sin. Ezekiel 18

yes sin should be easy for us to grasp together. "Whatever is not of faith is sin." My faith says the Lord is in me willing and doing me and my natural man is dead, so I don't sin because God's grace is with me. Apart from this I would be in a constant state of sin doing my own will as a natural man does and would not be able to believe God was in me willing and doing me. sin would be a state of being(rebel) and a condition(enslaved)

 

[squint]

Amen.....

So now, Elman sees Satan as a myth and the scriptures are not 100% God- breathed and inerrant.

Okay, where do we go from here???

We chalk him up with an understanding FAIL.

I am going to practice age discrimination here because I am getting there too and say he's probably not going to be changing anytime soon, while here on earth I mean.

For the record I believe God Is Sovereign enough to save him regardless.

s

 

[Arcoe]

I was recently listening to R.C. Sproul in an audio series on divine sovereignty when he made an argument which is rather common in such discussions, that total freedom for man and absolute sovereignty of God are mutually incompatible.

Then I will ask, what if God's sovereignty includes man having a free will? Would there be incompatibility?

And before you answer, please tell me you know everything there is to know about God's sovereignty. Because if you don't, then it is only speculation, and speculation does not make for sound doctrine.

 

[RisingSpirit]

Then I will ask, what if God's sovereignty includes man having a free will? Would there be incompatibility?

And before you answer, please tell me you know everything there is to know about God's sovereignty. Because if you don't, then it is only speculation, and speculation does not make for sound doctrine.

​

While not really knowing how we get caught up in the ripple effect freely doing things on the run, God arranges the bank's location for the robber to bump in to is exactly what the Lord wanted and what the robber wanted. Both are happy with the results.

The Lord arranges circumstances and it varies for each event.

It's the circumstance which God directly controls ...NOT the human.

Then, the human responds in their own will to the circumstance !

Thus human volition makes a free choice within circumstances while the Most High arranges circumstance so intended results occur.

Again: It's the circumstance God directly controls, not human will. In this manner our choice is 'free'.

Now, regarding how the Lord arranges circumstances, it varies for each instance.

You have heard, though, the philosophical dictum that moving just one grain of sand on a beach eventually changes the course of entire history ? Same principle with Divine Providence.

We start with God's foreknowledge of outcomes. He knows in advance what effect any given change would have.

Next, the Most High alters some small thing. And that has the ripple effect to present the circumstance God intended. [ Almost sounds like Science Fiction ! ]

The example I gave here is putting a bank within sight of a robber.
That robber eventually robs the bank as the Supreme Being intended he would. Yet he does it out of his sin nature instead because of some kind of divine coercion.

Suffice it for now to say that this isn't a instance of "bad things happening to good people".

There are no "good people" !

The Lord using bad people to punish other bad people. [ In this case the Jihadists are worse than us. All other means of getting our attention having failed, though, God used this (9-11) to discipline us. ]

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

I'm sorry, Shiloh, I've been stepping away from my computer on and off to get some things done and don't remember which post number. Can you just give me the post # and I'll take a look? Thanks.

Sorry to be so long in getting back...the post was number 817 I believe or something very near that.

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

If the will of God is summed up in loving God and man which Jesus said it was, then sin is failing to love God or man. James said to know to do good and do it not is sin. Exactly how is my view of sin too limited and please avoid bringing the devil or Satan in to confuse the matter. Just stay with what we do or do not do that is sin. So you believe Paul was chief of sinners after he was forgiven? It is a mistake to say I am not responsible for my failure to love others because God is responsible. It is also error and a mistake to try to excuse yourself with the Devil made me do it. Neither God nor the devil make you chose to be unloving and the only sin that results in the destruction of your soul is yours--not Satan's, not Adam's, and certainly not God who does not sin. Ezekiel 18

I often think you a little heavy on the Ezekiel 18 bit, but the above is well put. Amen.

 

[Arcoe]

While not really knowing how we get caught up in the ripple effect freely doing things on the run, God arranges the bank's location for the robber to bump in to is exactly what the Lord wanted and what the robber wanted. Both are happy with the results.

The Lord arranges circumstances and it varies for each event.

It's the circumstance which God directly controls ...NOT the human.

Then, the human responds in their own will to the circumstance !

Thus human volition makes a free choice within circumstances while the Most High arranges circumstance so intended results occur.

Again: It's the circumstance God directly controls, not human will. In this manner our choice is 'free'.

Now, regarding how the Lord arranges circumstances, it varies for each instance.

You have heard, though, the philosophical dictum that moving just one grain of sand on a beach eventually changes the course of entire history ? Same principle with Divine Providence.

We start with God's foreknowledge of outcomes. He knows in advance what effect any given change would have.

Next, the Most High alters some small thing. And that has the ripple effect to present the circumstance God intended. [ Almost sounds like Science Fiction ! ]

The example I gave here is putting a bank within sight of a robber.
That robber eventually robs the bank as the Supreme Being intended he would. Yet he does it out of his sin nature instead because of some kind of divine coercion.

Suffice it for now to say that this isn't a instance of "bad things happening to good people".

There are no "good people" !

The Lord using bad people to punish other bad people. [ In this case the Jihadists are worse than us. All other means of getting our attention having failed, though, God used this (9-11) to discipline us. ]

In all you've given, I see that God arranges and controls circumstances to give man the opportunity to sin from his nature.

This is called 'tempting' man to sin. And this is against the truths of the Bible.

So God arranged for many people to be killed in order that we may be disciplined? Well, I guess people can freely have their own views on the actions and nature of God. I see it on this board all the time.

 

[Arcoe]

I often think you a little heavy on the Ezekiel 18 bit, but the above is well put. Amen.

If the only words we had from God were Ezekiel 18, man could still find salvation within its message.

 

[samcarternx]

Then I will ask, what if God's sovereignty includes man having a free will? Would there be incompatibility?

And before you answer, please tell me you know everything there is to know about God's sovereignty. Because if you don't, then it is only speculation, and speculation does not make for sound doctrine.

hahahaha try this: Whose will is the best will? God's will of course. So submission to His will would be the best course for any. So His will becomes our will. How free is that and sovereignty is the right to rule and rejection of His sovereignty would exclude from perfect will and be rebellious. who wants that, its what got us in this mess in the first place.

 

[Arcoe]

hahahaha try this: Whose will is the best will? God's will of course. So submission to His will would be the best course for any. So His will becomes our will. How free is that and sovereignty is the right to rule and rejection of His sovereignty would exclude from perfect will and be rebellious. who wants that, its what got us in this mess in the first place.

Since His will becomes our will, can I unelect you and put you in the other category? Can I play around with people's lives and at the end, just send them to hell? Can I make God's plans now? Hey, we have the same will.

Can I arrange circumstances in your life so you will commit the most atrocious sins? Can I arrange to have your car to break down, so you will be disciplined? Can I leave you to yourself, so you will sin willy-nilly?

Since His will becomes mine, I now have complete control over your life. So, please don't talk back to me. Hey, I just figured out if His will becomes mine, I actually become God.

All kidding aside, your will is your own will, it is your life. You do not somehow acquire God's will. What you must do, is get your will in line with His. If His will is for you to cast away your transgressions, then you must bring your own will into subjection to this truth. If this is something you cannot believe and obey, then you definitely have not submitted your will to God's will. In fact, your will is fighting against His will.

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

If the only words we had from God were Ezekiel 18, man could still find salvation within its message.

Same True for John 3:16 but the Lord has chosen to give us so much more, including Ezekiel 18.

 

[cygnusx1]

If the only words we had from God were Ezekiel 18, man could still find salvation within its message.

Saved without the Gospel of Jesus Christ ?

I don't think so .

The way is narrow !

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

Saved without the Gospel of Jesus Christ ?

I don't think so .

The way is narrow !

Narrow but many in the OT found it before "the Gospel of Jesus Christ" was known...I think that might be he meant...nevertheless, the Lord's hand is not shortened that it cannot save, not in any age.

Cygnus, you made no response to Post #935...would like to hear what you have to say.

Also, I put an invitation out to Crimson in # 936 and to Shulamite earlier but again no response...am I to gather that Calvinists only respond to the 'easy' or 'less challenging' questions? Surely not.

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

hahahaha try this: Whose will is the best will? God's will of course. So submission to His will would be the best course for any. So His will becomes our will. How free is that and sovereignty is the right to rule and rejection of His sovereignty would exclude from perfect will and be rebellious. who wants that, its what got us in this mess in the first place.

Sorry Sam, I don't agree. His will doesn't 'become' our will, otherwise we would have no need for such exercising verses as "Let this mind be in you as was in Christ Jesus"; and "yield therefore your members as members of righteousness", and so on. It's not automatic; we have to suppress our own wills and seek by grace to do His.

Sam, you never answered my question in Post #932. I still would like to hear your answer. While you are at it read the previous post and also # 935. I would like for some Calvinist to come to the plate. Batter up!!

 

[JackSparrow]

Yes God indeed has decrees but I think you are missing something in your argument. Just because a thing IS...such as sin...doesn't mean that God decreed it. How is that possible you say? Simply this. Some things 'exist' because they are the opposites of what is real...for example, when you turn off a light in a room at night you do not 'create' darkness...it 'exists' because of the absense of light. Your shadow if not a 'thing' in itself, it is the absense of something, isn't it. yet we speak of it as a 'something'. God never had to 'create' darkness...He simply had to remove light. When man operates 'outside' the precepts or will of God, he is acting in 'sin'...God did no more to 'create' that than you did to 'create' the dark in the room. So, just because something IS doesn't mean that God made it...it's just the opposite of that which He did make, or did decree. Important to understand this; otherwise, we attribute to a Holy God that which is unholy.

I found this article very good. Slightly off topic talking about election. Did God decree vessels of wrath ?

Divine Election is Questioned (Romans 9:14-23) | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site

 

[Shulamite]

Narrow but many in the OT found it before "the Gospel of Jesus Christ" was known...I think that might be he meant...nevertheless, the Lord's hand is not shortened that it cannot save, not in any age.

Cygnus, you made no response to Post #935...would like to hear what you have to say.

Also, I put an invitation out to Crimson in # 936 and to Shulamite earlier but again no response...am I to gather that Calvinists only respond to the 'easy' or 'less challenging' questions? Surely not.

Hi Shiloh, I've been away from my computer since yesterday afternoon. I'll try to gt back to you later today. My sons are taking me out for a birthday dinner this pm also...so, I'll get back to you shortly! Thanks for your patience......(besides, I'm too stubborn NOT to come to the plate and bat! Lol). Until later.....

 

[RisingSpirit]

In all you've given, I see that God arranges and controls circumstances to give man the opportunity to sin from his nature.

This is called 'tempting' man to sin. And this is against the truths of the Bible.

So God arranged for many people to be killed in order that we may be disciplined? Well, I guess people can freely have their own views on the actions and nature of God. I see it on this board all the time.

​

There are no free will short cuts to your cheese

God also arranges mazes and walls for satan to follow.

"lead us not into temptation"

We need really look carefully at this verse, because James 1:13-14 reads:

"When tempted, no one should say,
'God is tempting me'. For God cannot
be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt
anyone; but each one is tempted when,
by his own evil desire, he is dragged
away and enticed." (NIV, 1984 Edition)

The Greek peirasmos can mean "adversity". So the verse would read:

"lead us not into adversity"

Or, it could just mean for God to prevent Satan and the world from tempting us.

But we know from James 1 that God doesn't tempt anyone !

A Confluence of Will operates in all cases by appealing to our desires, affections, predilections. ( This as true with God as it is with Satan. ) The Devil appeals to our lower desires and sinful cravings.

I can't speak with absolute certainty. But the New Testament seems to indicate that Satan appealed to Judas' greed.

Satan wanted Jesus dead. Judas wanted cash. So, the Devil simply arranged a circumstance where the Jews would pay cash for Jesus being turned-over for execution !

A very straight-forward confluence of what both wanted.

Satan corrupts us by tempting us. Matthew 4:2-10 being instructional here. We also find this in Eve's temptation in Genesis 3:4-5 ("you will be like God").

It's never by force or Mind Control. Satan always appeals to what we want.

 

[RisingSpirit]

​

Why do most hyper free willers, here on CF, want to put God in a box?​

 

[Shulamite]

I agree with the scriptures quoted but we are exhorted to rightly divide the word of truth. God is over all, and even though His creation has been spoiled He ultimately remains in control and His purposes will be achieved. Since man, by and large, will not be guided by His eye the Lord uses all things at His disposal to bring about those purposes, including what we would call 'calamities'. When a judge sentences death to the murderer it might be considered 'evil' by the perpetrater but it is simply justice to the judge. So, too, God deals with a rebellious world in much the same way.

But this is a totally different thing to God 'choosing' to bring such evils as I earlier posted upon an individual. Do you really believe God has ordained some to everlasting perdition from the beginning? That He directs the rape and murder of the innocent (children) just to further His cause. How would you explain the "God is Love" in that, and how could you say that He is willing not that any should perish? Since you have the meat and I the milk, answer the questions...don't just quote scriptures that seem to support your view only. It's a serious charge to make God the author of sin.

Okay, it's taken me a while to respond due to work schedules and busy days, not because I don't have an answer. Be forewarned, though, that you will most likely not agree with my answer, but it is my answer nonetheless and since you asked me, I'll give it..(What I say on this forum is what I feel persuaded to understand by the Lord, not by Calvin, pastors and books and "programs". I didn't even know what Calvinism was until I joined this forum a few years ago. The Lord confirmed what He had already taught me privately when I found out what Calvinism was.)

I believe God does indeed ordain that some are born vessels of wrath and some vessels of honor. (Romans 9) This is determined before they are born, or have done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose in election may stand (to show that He is the One Who chooses, not "man" or "man's" good actions or will.) This is how the Spirit has caused me to read this. If a person is a vessel of wrath, in my opinion, they will not even know or care that they are. They will have no drawing of God or fear of God in their hearts. They feel they are "good" apart from the grace of God. There is no need of Him in their hearts. They will not persue Him or fear Him if they don't feel they need Him. None of us goes after something we have no need of. I believe in the "Elect", the vessels prepared for salvation and honor, the Lord has chosen to regenerate, cause us to need Him (recognize that we are poor in spirit without Him) and then He opens the eyes of our hearts to see Him and persue Him. There are two distinct vessels in Romans 9. Do I believe God plans the destiny of these two types of vessels out before the creation of the world? Yes. God is not a reactionary God, but a planning God, a God Who plans all His works before they are completed in the present-tense, physical world!
Just as an architect sits down and plans his building BEFORE starting and carrying out the construction, so God plans before He builds history for His glory.

Does God ordain even evil to carry out His plans. Yes. If God is sovereign over all things, including evil, then nothing happens apart from His will. I am not accusing God of authoring evil, but using evil as a tool, at times, to carry out His decrees and purposes. Some are blinded by their evil and don't even realize they are being evil, so that the plans of God will be carried out (Saul/Paul is one example, there are many!)

God has said many times that it grieves Him to have to cause/inflict adversity on us, but He does indeed decree it for His purposes in both the "elect" and non-elect's lives.

1.) Jeremiah 42:10.." for I am grieved over the disaster I have inflicted on you."

(Now you will tell me that the people's own actions brought this on themselves by their own doing? God ordained that their hearts would stray so He could bring them to a finished result of knowing Him more deeply. This was the result of God's working in Job's life too).

2.) Jeremiah 32:28..."Just as I watched over them to uproot and tear down, and to overthrow, destroy and bring disaster, so I will watch over them to build and to plant," declares the LORD."

(God sometimes must "break us" before He can "build us"... )

3.) Isaiah 63:7.."Why O Lord have You caused us to wander from Your fear and stray from You?"

(Isaiah's statement here is both shocking, but true. He has been given understanding from the Spirit that God alone is in charge of channeling the human heart, yes, even from wandering from Him. and No....this does not make Him the author of sin, but the "User" of sin to bring about His prearranged plans.

Being the "Author" of sin is quite different than being the "User" of sin.

So.... you have it. My answer. I hope this clarifies where I stand? Not that you will agree, I expect that.

Blessings.

 

[Shulamite]

Why do most hyper free willers, here on CF, want to put God in a box?​

Good stuff. Good stuff.
Had to smile over this one. Although I must admit, we've ALL done this at one time or another in our growth and maturity. I'm so glad that God is the One who guides us into all truth in His timing.