DO We Have Free Will?

[crimsonleaf]

Thank you. I've learned from the best on this board.



I see you used your free will to choose what you believe to be the best view of God. And his is okay with me. I also noticed YOU searched for God and answers, which is okay with me also.

Yes I did - right after He saved me. The searching for God I seek to do is in order to know Him better. Prior to my conversion I did no seeking and had no desire to understand.

But somewhere down the line, you started believing you have no free will and can't do anything from yourself. Why would you suddenly believe this, when your own life proves this is wrong?

I recently dared to suggest you were one of the people on here who least understood Calvinism. I will restate that again.

I have never stated that I don't have free will, but that my will is free to act within my nature. That is still true, although my nature has been changed so that it can now include God. Nowhere have I said I can't do anything from myself. All I do is, and has been, from myself. My very love of God is a free choice, enabled by the Holy Spirit. So, far from not believing in free will, I believe that unregenerate man's will is free within his nature, and that regenerate man's is truly and supremely free.

But by definition, free will never prompts a man to do what he doesn't want to, does it?

I am fine with what you are telling me. I believe every man must search, find, and believe what he gets from the Bible freely. Yes, the Spirit will guide you, but ultimately, you make the final decision.

Once the Spirit is guiding you the decision is inevitable, otherwise it was never the Spirit.

 

[RisingSpirit]

...


I am fine with what you are telling me. I believe every man must search, find, and believe what he gets from the Bible freely. Yes, the Spirit will guide you, but ultimately, you make the final decision.

In the Future, God knew you would make that decision. In the Past, God still knew you made that decision. In the Present, God watches you discover as life goes by.
If God thinks what happened then He created what happened. God knew for sure you made that decision so He saved you as if you won't reject like you can't reject cause you never have rejected.
The Armininan's view of "Robots" just don't work. Nor does "Forced" work. "Free will" is plain silly to me.

I think the wrong use of languages keeps us guessing. I would take all my decisions are made by God as it is and move on without asking too many questions. I take it "Guidance by the Holy spirit" means guiding like I wouldn't know the meaning of choices made by my own private personal unforced free wills.

 

[elman]

In the Future, God knew you would make that decision. In the Past, God still knew you made that decision. In the Present, God watches you discover as life goes by.
If God thinks what happened then He created what happened. God knew for sure you made that decision so He saved you as if you won't reject like you can't reject cause you never have rejected.
The Armininan's view of "Robots" just don't work. Nor does "Forced" work. "Free will" is plain silly to me.

I think the wrong use of languages keeps us guessing. I would take all my decisions are made by God as it is and move on without asking too many questions. I take it "Guidance by the Holy spirit" means guiding like I wouldn't know the meaning of choices made by my own private personal unforced free wills.

If all your decisions are made by God then God is the one who makes sinful and unloving choices and not you. You become not responsible for your own sinful choices. Nice try. It will not work. You are responsible.

 

[samcarternx]

How is it then that the puppet does not walk in the Spirit and thus, fulfills the lust of the flesh? Were some of the 'strings' cut off?

the puppet does the will of the Spirit or he is not a puppet, but an independent will separated from Gods will and the chemistry is the will in charge. square one and cannot be both ways.

 

[samcarternx]

Sin is not the will of God.

Ezekiel 18:30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

The way this "repent and live" happens is through Savior the Anointed and the reception of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit demands submission to His authority so His will rules the man if the man does not submit and obey he continues the war between the Spirit will and the chemistry will. When the chemistry will submits to the Spirit(God) will, the man does the Spirit will motivated by love and no sin ensues. It's why Savior said "be ye perfect...".

 

[elman]

The way this "repent and live" happens is through Savior the Anointed and the reception of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit demands submission to His authority so His will rules the man if the man does not submit and obey he continues the war between the Spirit will and the chemistry will. When the chemistry will submits to the Spirit(God) will, the man does the Spirit will motivated by love and no sin ensues. It's why Savior said "be ye perfect...".

Being perfect is to mature, to change from being a little loving to a lot of compassion and care for others. The way repent and live happens is you decide to turn from wickedness--being uncaring and unloving to righteousness--being loving and caring. God does not make you turn just as God does not make you turn back to wickedness if that is what you chose to do. It is not true that when we have turned to righteousness, no sin ensues. We continue to sin, but these are not sins unto death. First John Five.

 

[samcarternx]

Being perfect is to mature, to change from being a little loving to a lot of compassion and care for others. The way repent and live happens is you decide to turn from wickedness--being uncaring and unloving to righteousness--being loving and caring. God does not make you turn just as God does not make you turn back to wickedness if that is what you chose to do. It is not true that when we have turned to righteousness, no sin ensues. We continue to sin, but these are not sins unto death. First John Five.

well this is my point. The will of God is initiated by love and there is no sin in love. The new creature whose will is the Fathers', has surrendered to the sovereignty of the Holy Spirit and so his will and God's will are in union as one will and he is no longer a rebel. So he becomes a part of the ruled by God in the kingdom of heaven. And as a finger or ear he does the will of the head. Mistakes can and are made but not sin as long as the faith that this union is unbroken. We become part of the body or team that does God's will on earth. Sin separates from God and sinner cannot do His will. How else can He be our willer and doer? How else can I be as He is in this present world? What does "he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin" mean? It means when the consequences of "free" will is understood, then sovereignty is accepted gratefully and happily the will ruled by chemistry is dead with the old man never to be returned to forever.

 

[Shulamite]

well this is my point. The will of God is initiated by love and there is no sin in love. The new creature whose will is the Fathers', has surrendered to the sovereignty of the Holy Spirit and so his will and God's will are in union as one will and he is no longer a rebel. So he becomes a part of the ruled by God in the kingdom of heaven. And as a finger or ear he does the will of the head. Mistakes can and are made but not sin as long as the faith that this union is unbroken. We become part of the body or team that does God's will on earth. Sin separates from God and sinner cannot do His will. How else can He be our willer and doer? How else can I be as He is in this present world? What does "he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin" mean? It means when the consequences of "free" will is understood, then sovereignty is accepted gratefully and happily the will ruled by chemistry is dead with the old man never to be returned to forever.

Yes. Amen.
Why wouldn't the body want to submit to the head? Even in a human body, the head of a person sends all the signals to the arms, legs, hands, causes the lungs to breathe and the heart to beat. All responds to the brain/head. The body and head are "one" and the body naturally responds to the Head.

Jesus is that Head. We, His body. He is IN us and His will becomes our will, since we are "one"!

 

[samcarternx]

:amen

Yes. Amen.
Why wouldn't the body want to submit to the head? Even in a human body, the head of a person sends all the signals to the arms, legs, hands, causes the lungs to breathe and the heart to beat. All responds to the brain/head. The body and head are "one" and the body naturally responds to the Head.

Jesus is that Head. We, His body. He is IN us and His will becomes our will, since we are "one"!

 

[Shulamite]

well this is my point. The will of God is initiated by love and there is no sin in love. The new creature whose will is the Fathers', has surrendered to the sovereignty of the Holy Spirit and so his will and God's will are in union as one will and he is no longer a rebel. So he becomes a part of the ruled by God in the kingdom of heaven. And as a finger or ear he does the will of the head. Mistakes can and are made but not sin as long as the faith that this union is unbroken. We become part of the body or team that does God's will on earth. Sin separates from God and sinner cannot do His will. How else can He be our willer and doer? How else can I be as He is in this present world? What does "he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin" mean? It means when the consequences of "free" will is understood, then sovereignty is accepted gratefully and happily the will ruled by chemistry is dead with the old man never to be returned to forever.

One more thought that came to mind: No part of a human body "worked" to get there. It just "is" a part. My lungs, heart, fingers, legs, etc. didnt' work to be what they are in my body, they were born in the body. We are literally the Body of Jesus, the New Man with Jesus as our Head. Each of us who are in Jesus are a part of Him, flesh of His flesh and bone of His bone, not by working to be a part of Him.

Therefore, the "will" of the Head naturally flows through to the rest of His own Body... "Vine and branches" example.

 

[Rick Otto]

We have no more of a decision to be born again than we did to be born.

 

[RisingSpirit]

We have no more of a decision to be born again than we did to be born.

I don't know why and how I came into this world or this side of the Milky Way. I'm just another molecule like the rest of the guys but with no choice. If God is not in Sovereign control, perhaps that one "maverick molecule" could have got into the lungs of Jesus as a young baby and God's eternal plan of salvation could well have been derailed with Jesus dying in infancy.

 

[RisingSpirit]

If all your decisions are made by God then God is the one who makes sinful and unloving choices and not you. You become not responsible for your own sinful choices. Nice try. It will not work. You are responsible.

​

I guess I'm responsible for looking like a Goofy Micky Mouse molecule but I still don't remember how I become one nor I remember how I discovered the "Gift of Faith" that came already installed me. Whaz up with the ridiculous date setting when one accepts Christ without knowing how they really got there? I was recently listening to R.C. Sproul in an audio series on divine sovereignty when he made an argument which is rather common in such discussions, that total freedom for man and absolute sovereignty of God are mutually incompatible. If man is absolutely free, then God cannot be fully sovereign; if God is absolutely sovereign, man cannot be completely free. Sproul took the position that God’s sovereignty is absolute, while man’s freedom, though real, is limited and bounded by that sovereignty. He pointed out that the existence of “one maverick molecule,” that is, a single molecule which is truly free from divine control and capable of acting contrary to God’s will, creates at least the possibility that any or all of God’s plans might be undermined. Since God’s plans cannot be frustrated, nothing in creation can be absolutely free.

The fad-like Semi-Pelagians modern human new slang languages make God look like a serial killer. They make Bible "R" Us profitable.

​

 

[Shulamite]

I guess I'm responsible for looking like a Goofy Micky Mouse molecule but I still don't remember how I become one nor I remember how I discovered the "Gift of Faith" that came already installed me. Whaz up with the ridiculous date setting when one accepts Christ without knowing how they really got there? I was recently listening to R.C. Sproul in an audio series on divine sovereignty when he made an argument which is rather common in such discussions, that total freedom for man and absolute sovereignty of God are mutually incompatible. If man is absolutely free, then God cannot be fully sovereign; if God is absolutely sovereign, man cannot be completely free. Sproul took the position that God’s sovereignty is absolute, while man’s freedom, though real, is limited and bounded by that sovereignty. He pointed out that the existence of “one maverick molecule,” that is, a single molecule which is truly free from divine control and capable of acting contrary to God’s will, creates at least the possibility that any or all of God’s plans might be undermined. Since God’s plans cannot be frustrated, nothing in creation can be absolutely free.

The fad-like Semi-Pelagians modern human new slang languages make God look like a serial killer. They make Bible "R" Us profitable.

Perfectly said. Agreed.

 

[samcarternx]

In the beginning all creation was submitted to His sovereign will, but one of those molecular sets decided to separate from His will and thus we have free will. We have been given enough faith to understand our condition, but I have been crucified with the Anointed. Nevertheless I live, yet not I but the Anointed lives in me and the life I now live in the chemistry I live by THE FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD who died and gave Himself up for me.

 

[samcarternx]

We have no more of a decision to be born again than we did to be born.

lol if you don;t you won't hahahaha so while you didn't decide to be born, you sure better decide to be born again.

 

[JackSparrow]

.......that total freedom for man and absolute sovereignty of God are mutually incompatible. If man is absolutely free, then God cannot be fully sovereign;
​

Not met anyone who claims total freedom or absolute free will. As such every Arminian theologian I have read agrees.

if God is absolutely sovereign, man cannot be completely free. Sproul took the position that God’s sovereignty is absolute, while man’s freedom, though real, is limited and bounded by that sovereignty. .......

Getting a bit wooly now. Why have the word "completely" ?



Sproul - "while man’s freedom, though real, is limited and bounded"
Every Arminian theologian I have read says the same.​

 

[samcarternx]

Not met anyone who claims total freedom or absolute free will. As such every Arminian theologian I have read agrees.

if God is absolutely sovereign, man cannot be completely free. Sproul took the position that God’s sovereignty is absolute, while man’s freedom, though real, is limited and bounded by that sovereignty. .......[/QUOTE]
Getting a bit wooly now. Why have the word "completely" ?



Sproul - "while man’s freedom, though real, is limited and bounded"
Every Arminian theologian I have read says the same.[/QUOTE]
yes Jack completely is redundant and freedom from what? Freedom from God means slave to sin. And why would we not want to be ruled by Love? Everyone that knows Him loves Him.

 

[RisingSpirit]

...We have been given enough faith to understand our condition, but I have been crucified with the Anointed.

Ironic that the ones who didn't hear the god-voice are the one's whom God is working to protect !

Same logic, though, with Faith Healing: If you had enough faith, God would've healed you. It's all your fault.

Same thing with glossolalia, if you couldn't speak in "Tongues" you must not have the Holy Spirit.

ALL depends upon the individual. Jesus Christ sits in a corner, bored, with a deck of cards playing Solitaire !

 

[RisingSpirit]

Not met anyone who claims total freedom or absolute free will. As such every Arminian theologian I have read agrees. .

They follow some weird man made doctrine called Five articles of remonstrants. They reward themselves with a new slang word called "cooperative grace".

Reformed Theology has always maintained an element of human cooperation in sanctification ...unlike regeneration and conversion which are monergistic workings of the Lord.

Think about it: Why all the exhortations of Paul for Christians to live rightly if sanctification is something we're imbued with ?

"Our sanctification is a cooperative venture.
We must work with the Holy Spirit to grow
in sanctification." (Essential Truths of the
Christian Faith; Pt. 5, Sec. 43; R. C. Sproul)

Nobody is saying there's sanctification without Grace. And LOTS of it !

Or that sanctification isn't primarily a work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the Believer.

And we definitely AREN'T saying salvation is a reward for any cooperation we render. [ Remember: In the ordo salutis justification precedes sanctification. People being sanctified are already assured of their ultimate salvation. ]

But, to quote Berkhof...

"It [sanctification] is essentially a work of
God, though -in so far as He employs means-
man can and is expected to cooperate by the
proper use of those means."
(Systematic Theology; Pt. 4, Ch. 10, Sec. D.1;
L. Berkhof)

We don't cooperate with either regeneration or conversion.

Both are things that happen to us.

In sanctification we cooperate with the Lord's providential means.