DO We Have Free Will?

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cygnusx1

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I guess I'm responsible for looking like a Goofy Micky Mouse molecule but I still don't remember how I become one nor I remember how I discovered the "Gift of Faith" that came already installed me. Whaz up with the ridiculous date setting when one accepts Christ without knowing how they really got there? I was recently listening to R.C. Sproul in an audio series on divine sovereignty when he made an argument which is rather common in such discussions, that total freedom for man and absolute sovereignty of God are mutually incompatible. If man is absolutely free, then God cannot be fully sovereign; if God is absolutely sovereign, man cannot be completely free. Sproul took the position that God’s sovereignty is absolute, while man’s freedom, though real, is limited and bounded by that sovereignty. He pointed out that the existence of “one maverick molecule,” that is, a single molecule which is truly free from divine control and capable of acting contrary to God’s will, creates at least the possibility that any or all of God’s plans might be undermined. Since God’s plans cannot be frustrated, nothing in creation can be absolutely free.

The fad-like Semi-Pelagians modern human new slang languages make God look like a serial killer. They make Bible "R" Us profitable.

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I Like it , and Sproul is always worth reading :cool:
 
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elman

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I don't know why and how I came into this world or this side of the Milky Way. I'm just another molecule like the rest of the guys but with no choice. If God is not in Sovereign control, perhaps that one "maverick molecule" could have got into the lungs of Jesus as a young baby and God's eternal plan of salvation could well have been derailed with Jesus dying in infancy.
So your wickedness is not your fault. God is to blame because you have no choice.
 
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elman

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They follow some weird man made doctrine called Five articles of remonstrants. They reward themselves with a new slang word called "cooperative grace".

Reformed Theology has always maintained an element of human cooperation in sanctification ...unlike regeneration and conversion which are monergistic workings of the Lord.

Think about it: Why all the exhortations of Paul for Christians to live rightly if sanctification is something we're imbued with ?

"Our sanctification is a cooperative venture.
We must work with the Holy Spirit to grow
in sanctification." (Essential Truths of the
Christian Faith; Pt. 5, Sec. 43; R. C. Sproul)

Nobody is saying there's sanctification without Grace. And LOTS of it !

Or that sanctification isn't primarily a work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the Believer.

And we definitely AREN'T saying salvation is a reward for any cooperation we render. [ Remember: In the ordo salutis justification precedes sanctification. People being sanctified are already assured of their ultimate salvation. ]

But, to quote Berkhof...

"It [sanctification] is essentially a work of
God, though -in so far as He employs means-
man can and is expected to cooperate by the
proper use of those means."
(Systematic Theology; Pt. 4, Ch. 10, Sec. D.1;
L. Berkhof)

We don't cooperate with either regeneration or conversion.

Both are things that happen to us.

In sanctification we cooperate with the Lord's providential means.

Repentance does not happen to us without our permission or involvement. Neither does turning from wickedness to righteousness. Loving or not loving others involves us. Being a sheep or a goat involves us. Being a Good Samaritan or passing by involves us. Leaving the pig pen of death we have gotten into involves us. God is not to blame for our sin. We are.
 
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elman

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275px-Water_molecule_2.svg.png


I guess I'm responsible for looking like a Goofy Micky Mouse molecule but I still don't remember how I become one nor I remember how I discovered the "Gift of Faith" that came already installed me. Whaz up with the ridiculous date setting when one accepts Christ without knowing how they really got there? I was recently listening to R.C. Sproul in an audio series on divine sovereignty when he made an argument which is rather common in such discussions, that total freedom for man and absolute sovereignty of God are mutually incompatible. If man is absolutely free, then God cannot be fully sovereign; if God is absolutely sovereign, man cannot be completely free. Sproul took the position that God’s sovereignty is absolute, while man’s freedom, though real, is limited and bounded by that sovereignty. He pointed out that the existence of “one maverick molecule,” that is, a single molecule which is truly free from divine control and capable of acting contrary to God’s will, creates at least the possibility that any or all of God’s plans might be undermined. Since God’s plans cannot be frustrated, nothing in creation can be absolutely free.

The fad-like Semi-Pelagians modern human new slang languages make God look like a serial killer. They make Bible "R" Us profitable.

Bibles+r+us.jpg


Are you responsible for your failure to be compassionate and loving toward others in need? Or is God responsible for that?
 
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Rick Otto

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Are you responsible for your failure to be compassionate and loving toward others in need? Or is God responsible for that?
God is responsible about whatyou're responsible for.
It isn't either God is responsible or we are, because we do not exist & act independantly.
 
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squint

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God is responsible about whatyou're responsible for.
It isn't either God is responsible or we are, because we do not exist & act independantly.

Most 'freewillers' use the position to exonerate God from the equations of the will of man so that God is not therefore implicated in evil.

Facts are however, multifold of/in the following:

->All sin/evil/will of men transpires within Omnipresence or in effect 'within God.'

->God is powerful enough to stop any sin/evil via Omnipotence, but chooses NOT to, and as such is directly implicated by omission which even in worldly courts can be just as implicating as commission.

->That God created all things inclusive of 'all' powers including the power of evil

->That God to this day UPHOLDS all things and therefore upholds both SIN and EVIL.

->and that Jesus had and maintains POWER over all flesh.

Scriptures provided upon request (not for you Rick because I know you know these things.)

s
 
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cygnusx1

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Most 'freewillers' use the position to exonerate God from the equations of the will of man so that God is not therefore implicated in evil.

Facts are however, multifold of/in the following:

->All sin/evil/will of men transpires within Omnipresence or in effect 'within God.'

->God is powerful enough to stop any sin/evil via Omnipotence, but chooses NOT to, and as such is directly implicated by omission which even in worldly courts can be just as implicating as commission.

->That God created all things inclusive of 'all' powers including the power of evil

->That God to this day UPHOLDS all things and therefore upholds both SIN and EVIL.

->and that Jesus had and maintains POWER over all flesh.

Scriptures provided upon request (not for you Rick because I know you know these things.)

s

Marvellous clarity !
 
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squint

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Marvellous clarity !

The best and most Godly Intelligent Spiritual believers I know understand that Divine Superiority MEANS that God Is Greater than the sum of all things and also that 'all things' serve Him and His Purposes.

Therein I bow to Him.

s
 
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elman

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God is responsible about whatyou're responsible for.
It isn't either God is responsible or we are, because we do not exist & act independantly.

Yes it is a question of who is responsible for your sin, God or you. Jesus tought that and told us to repent or die. Ezekiel thought so also and said turn to righteousness or die. God does allow us to act independently of His will. That is what sin is. Acting independently from and contrary to the Will of God that we should be loving beings. Yes God created us with the ability to love or not love and wanted us to love. When do not do what God wanted us to do, God does not become responsible simply because God gave us the ability. Yes God can and will work all things together for good to those who love Him, but that does not mean God causes sin to occur just so He can use it for good.
 
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squint

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Yes it is a question of who is responsible for your sin, God or you.

That is SUCH a limited view of SIN.

Sin is assuredly NOT a question of merely man or God.

At least get all the parties on the table of facts please, if you can?

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; -

Is the 'will of man' going to make the will of the devil NOT sin? The DEVIL has A WILL IN SIN!

Uh, no. They are not even the same wills. No man by his own [falsely supposed] freewill is going to STOP SATAN and DEVILS from resisting Gods Words and stealing Gods Words from MAN's heart.

God Himself PLANNED for those 'evil entities' to do that and do that THEY WILL.

It's quite irrelevant to what 'man's will' has to say about it. No man has ever made themselves 'sinless' by their exercise of will because man's will is NOT the only will involved with SIN.

Read Paul's statement about himself at the bottom of my post to see his factual condition.

Paul in the supposed 'exercise' of freewill ended up as the chief of sinners POST [AFTER] SALVATION.

OUR MARK of TRUTH!


1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Am, not 'was' prior to belief.

s
 
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elman

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That is SUCH a limited view of SIN.

Sin is assuredly NOT a question of merely man or God.

At least get all the parties on the table of facts please, if you can?

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; -

Is the 'will of man' going to make the will of the devil NOT sin? The DEVIL has A WILL IN SIN!

Uh, no. They are not even the same wills. No man by his own [falsely supposed] freewill is going to STOP SATAN and DEVILS from resisting Gods Words and stealing Gods Words from MAN's heart.

God Himself PLANNED for those 'evil entities' to do that and do that THEY WILL.

It's quite irrelevant to what 'man's will' has to say about it. No man has ever made themselves 'sinless' by their exercise of will because man's will is NOT the only will involved with SIN.

Read Paul's statement about himself at the bottom of my post to see his factual condition.

Paul in the supposed 'exercise' of freewill ended up as the chief of sinners POST [AFTER] SALVATION.

OUR MARK of TRUTH!


1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Am, not 'was' prior to belief.

s
If the will of God is summed up in loving God and man which Jesus said it was, then sin is failing to love God or man. James said to know to do good and do it not is sin. Exactly how is my view of sin too limited and please avoid bringing the devil or Satan in to confuse the matter. Just stay with what we do or do not do that is sin. So you believe Paul was chief of sinners after he was forgiven? It is a mistake to say I am not responsible for my failure to love others because God is responsible. It is also error and a mistake to try to excuse yourself with the Devil made me do it. Neither God nor the devil make you chose to be unloving and the only sin that results in the destruction of your soul is yours--not Satan's, not Adam's, and certainly not God who does not sin. Ezekiel 18
 
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squint

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If the will of God is summed up in loving God and man which Jesus said it was, then sin is failing to love God or man.

If any theology student can NOT get the basic parties to the matters of sin on the table they will remain logically void of accurate conversations.

You suppose an "IF" for example above.

IF we factor the devil's will into the equations of sin we not only IF but will find resistance to love either God or man.

Paul showed us all the 'existence' of the SATANIC WILL overpowering the will of those blinded to the Gospel, here for example:

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

It is quite pointless to see only the will of the blinded in the above equation when there are obviously TWO parties, the god of this world and the blinded person.

When God means to UPlift one, the will of the man (or not) God also brings automatic resistance from the will of the god of this world.

In other words GODS WORD itself causes an adverse reaction to arise from the will of the resistor, Satan and devils.

Hopefully we can stop talking past each others (all of us) about this fact purely on the basis of it being a fact.


James said to know to do good and do it not is sin. Exactly how is my view of sin too limited
Uh, because you obviously can't seem to see that sin is NOT only a matter of the mans will????

and please avoid bringing the devil or Satan in to confuse the matter.
Well, one can certainly REFUSE to be 'factual' and 'truthful' in order to hold up some fantasies.

If that is where you are headed just say so.

Fantasy theological structures are nothing new to the world of christiandom.

s
 
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elman

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If any theology student can NOT get the basic parties to the matters of sin on the table they will remain logically void of accurate conversations.

You suppose an "IF" for example above.

IF we factor the devil's will into the equations of sin we not only IF but will find resistance to love either God or man.

Paul showed us all the 'existence' of the SATANIC WILL overpowering the will of those blinded to the Gospel, here for example:

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

It is quite pointless to see only the will of the blinded in the above equation when there are obviously TWO parties, the god of this world and the blinded person.

When God means to UPlift one, the will of the man (or not) God also brings automatic resistance from the will of the god of this world.

In other words GODS WORD itself causes an adverse reaction to arise from the will of the resistor, Satan and devils.

Hopefully we can stop talking past each others (all of us) about this fact purely on the basis of it being a fact.


Uh, because you obviously can't seem to see that sin is NOT only a matter of the mans will????

Well, one can certainly REFUSE to be 'factual' and 'truthful' in order to hold up some fantasies.

If that is where you are headed just say so.

Fantasy theological structures are nothing new to the world of christiandom.

s

God is absolute reality. Satan is a myth. The only Satan you and I need to fear is the satan we can become if we turn from righteousness to wickedness. What you cannot seem to grasp is sin is not the will of God.
 
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samcarternx

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I'm not sure what you mean by "freewheeling"? When God said "Let there be light." those Words proceeded to produce the physical universe and us as well. Before Adam introduced another will, there was only one will. Afterward the whole universe was corrupted by his sin, obviously not Gods' will. No one can say God cannot finish what He started. So the finish includes salvation. For His names sake He made a way for separated man to be made anew within His will by putting His life-giving spirit back into the flesh man. This Spirit wills and does the man (grace) through space-time. The man believing this is separated from the world of men into the kingdom of heaven (sanctification). The rest of the physical universe will revert back to it origin (energy = hell) and the new heavens and new earth will continue forever. Evil is no more because no one does any. wahooo
 
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elman

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I'm not sure what you mean by "freewheeling"? When God said "Let there be light." those Words proceeded to produce the physical universe and us as well. Before Adam introduced another will, there was only one will. Afterward the whole universe was corrupted by his sin, obviously not Gods' will. No one can say God cannot finish what He started. So the finish includes salvation. For His names sake He made a way for separated man to be made anew within His will by putting His life-giving spirit back into the flesh man. This Spirit wills and does the man (grace) through space-time. The man believing this is separated from the world of men into the kingdom of heaven (sanctification). The rest of the physical universe will revert back to it origin (energy = hell) and the new heavens and new earth will continue forever. Evil is no more because no one does any. wahooo

My soul is not destroyed because of the sin of Adam. The only sin that destroys my soul is my sin. Ezekiel 18
 
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squint

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God is absolute reality. Satan is a myth. The only Satan you and I need to fear is the satan we can become if we turn from righteousness to wickedness. What you cannot seem to grasp is sin is not the will of God.

Ah, well you should have said you hold unorthodox theology from the start.

Apparently Jesus was tempted by Himself in the desert and if so, then Jesus was Satan.

lol

s
 
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cygnusx1

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See this is what happens when you play pick and mix with scripture , yesterday it was a denial God sends out lying spirits , today it's Satan is a myth !

Such is the fruit of a denial of the inerrancy of scripture .

Tomorrow it will be universalism , everyone gets saved and the Bible has half a page of accuracy left !
 
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Shulamite

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See this is what happens when you play pick and mix with scripture , yesterday it was a denial God sends out lying spirits , today it's Satan is a myth !

Such is the fruit of a denial of the inerrancy of scripture .

Tomorrow it will be universalism , everyone gets saved and the Bible has half a page of accuracy left !

Amen.....

So now, Elman sees Satan as a myth and the scriptures are not 100% God- breathed and inerrant.

Okay, where do we go from here??? :confused:
 
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