DO We Have Free Will?

[Rev Randy]

Is this simply a free-will vs predestination thread? Sure seems like one.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

It also depends on how we present our self to the Lord. One can indeed be both at the same time. Matter of fact a true friend is always a servant.

Jesus' only designation between his 12 being servants and friends .. is having a permanent place in the family .. but most specifically that he has told them everything. later they'd learn other stuff .. so what was meant by that .. other than in the friendship sense .. friends tell each other everything so far as God sees it.

I don't think it has much to do with maturity .. but just a capacity to listen though maturity helps with that.

 

[sunlover1]

We have free will within the boundaries that God set.

Amen.
Hi Optimax!
How're the fish biting?
My 17 yo caught 4 bluegill out back. (ice-fishing)
He just finished cleaning them.
Obviously not enough for all of us but he's eating well tonight

Slaves .. Friends .. hey .. it depends what God "calls" you .

Wherefore thou art no more a servant,
but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Isn't that amazing that He even calls us "friend" too?
Mind blowing!

 

[sunlover1]

I think that conclusion alone shows that hard determinism is both absurd and not compatible with faith in a good God.

Hard determinism must be some sort of reformed doctrine?
Afraid I'm not much of an apologist ... just a plain Bible reader.
Sorry! But thanks for your answer... others will understand it well.

Risingspirit means raising the spirit to your head and sinking Qi to the lower abdomen. Thats what I teach my students. It clears the minds for extra wisdom and brings a halo above the crown.

Totally lost me on that one.
Is this something you learned from the Bible? Just curious.

To be really really honest with you is that as far as I can remember my will to reply this message is the God put the keyboard in front of my hands. That means the reforms got it right. God does put the bank in front of the robber to rob and in front of the mother who deposited he money.

Of course God is there. Where else would He be?

It would be goofy to say God had nothing to do with the Sandy Shootings but He put the gun in front of the shooter. Why? thats a mystery

Or you could maybe be wrong and God DIDNT put a gun in front of the shooter?

That would be silly to tell God, "I have free will and you can't touch it !".

NEVER would imply or try such a thing.
Yikes.
GOD gave us the free will.
My position anyhow.

He'll find a way to get an Elect to believe, if not today, then tomorrow cause He Willed it. He will guarantee His Will will happen.

Thank you for your answer.
I do disagree though.
It was God's will for Moses to go to the promised land.
God told him to do so in fact.
But Did God's will get done? no, not in that case.

 

[sunlover1]

freewhim is an illusion which is why you should not judge others when they err
but if you err you should expect to receive correction.

So you do believe that if I sin it's because it's GOD's will?

Good Day, Sunlover

I guess that depend on how you define "free-will"....

I would say No in the strictest sense of the word, as there are things that you do not control that impact you ablity to do the things that you desire.

IE ... I desire to jump off a building and fly by flapping my arms.

How do you define "free" will?

Can God stop you from sinning?

Does sinning serve any purpose at all?

In Him,

Bill

Hey BBas, hows it going?
Yeah, I was talking about sinning.
IS it God's will for me to sin or am I defying God's will when I sin?
CAN God stop us from sinning? SUre.
DOES God stop us from sinning? I don't believe He'd force me not to sin.
Would be helpful though !

 

[sunlover1]

It is not God's will that we sin. Yes, it's true that God calls all people to be Holy.
1Pe 1:14As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
1Pe 1:15But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Pe 1:16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Be we all sin at times......
Rom 3:23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

But God is faithful to forgive the repentant ..........


1Jo 1:5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jo 1:6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jo 1:7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jo 1:8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

There we have it.
God's lips to our ears!
Thanks Cribstyl!

No, we do not have free will. We have free choice though. Some may look at these as the same thing, but I see them as different. A slave is not free.

Romans 6:15-23 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Hi Spiritandtruth, welcome to CF.
So you believe then that if I SIN, that was GOD's will?

Hey, sunlover1. . . .God doesn't "will" us to sin. To sin or not to sin (Shakespeare) is our choice. Are we going to sin? More than likely. . at least I haven't met anyone who hasn't! We are all in a battle, a race to the finish. . . and God loves us.

I don't always like what my children do and I will be the first to admit they haven't always done what I have wanted them - I can say that but let anyone else speak against them and boy howdy! - my dander will come up! God is our Father; we are his kids and he feels the same way when the adversary accuses us before him. . .so our brother stands as mediator between us and the Father and pleads our case (so to speak) and if we are sincere when we ask forgiveness - God cast our sins as far as the east is from the west and remembers them no more. . . .

We serve a great big wonderful God. . . .

We do!
Great to read your posts and good to see you Patience7!

Is this simply a free-will vs predestination thread? Sure seems like one.

Hmmmmm.
Not sure.
Just discussing if God wills us to sin or if we have our own free will to
do as we like.
I don't believe we're puppets.
I believe that our Father gave us choices

 

[sunlover1]

It is never God's will that we sin, yet God is sovereign and often uses our sinful thoughts, words and deeds to accomplish his will. Examples of this are numerous in scripture, Joseph, Judah, even the Crucifixion itself. God knowing we would sin is not the same as God willing that we sin. God cannot be the source of sin and remain God. God cannot act in a manner not in his character and remain God.

To offer a scriptural alternative to the other views in this thread, Lutheran anthropology sees four distinct categories in scripture. First, in the garden Adam and Eve were free to choose to sin or not to sin. Second, after the fall, man is naturally incapable of choosing not to sin. All that does not proceed from faith in Christ is sin, according to Paul, and thus everything an unbeliever does, no matter how good it may seem, is sin. Third, when God saves us by his gift of faith in Christ, we do not return to the state of Adam before the fall, being able to choose to sin or not, but we then have two natures - the Old Adam and the New Adam - one that can only choose to sin, and one that is in the likeness of Christ and cannot chose to sin. The Christian life is a battle btween these two natures. Fourth, when we are resurrected in glory' we will have the mind of Christ fully realized and will never choose to sin.

Most non-Lutheran theology holds that after conversion we again have free will to sin or not to sin. We find that this is simply not what scripture teaches, and thus the two natures theology. The sinful nature is bound to our flesh, and until our flesh physically dies and we are resurrected - when the sons of God are revealed - we will never be free of our fleshly sinful nature, as much as our new man may earnestly desire it.

Thanks Tangible.
I agree with much of this except for the duo nature part.
We have one nature now, because we're a new creation.
But we DO sometimes act outside OF our nature perhaps...

But we have one nature.
(Obviously that's my view)

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Amen.
Hi Optimax!
How're the fish biting?
My 17 yo caught 4 bluegill out back. (ice-fishing)
He just finished cleaning them.
Obviously not enough for all of us but he's eating well tonight



Wherefore thou art no more a servant,
but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Isn't that amazing that He even calls us "friend" too?
Mind blowing!

yepp we're different . we serve . but in God's eyes serving is what defines greatness . so we are given .. greater opportunities to serve as the friendship progresses.

 

[InSpiritandTruth]

So changing a word's meaning makes it acceptable? A slave to Christ is indeed free in Christ. We are not slaves by force but by self submission.

What meaning did I change? Free from what. The point still stands.

 

[InSpiritandTruth]

Hi Spiritandtruth, welcome to CF.
So you believe then that if I SIN, that was GOD's will?

May it never be! My point is that we are only able to choose what our will is a slave ( or servant if you so desire) to. Our choices are free, but our will determines how we choose.

 

[Optimax]

Amen.
Hi Optimax!
How're the fish biting?
My 17 yo caught 4 bluegill out back. (ice-fishing)
He just finished cleaning them.
Obviously not enough for all of us but he's eating well tonight



Wherefore thou art no more a servant,
but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Isn't that amazing that He even calls us "friend" too?
Mind blowing!

Blue gill are fun!

Too cold for some of us!

Put the winter cover on the boat till early spring.

 

[Rev Randy]

Hmmmmm.
Not sure.
Just discussing if God wills us to sin or if we have our own free will to
do as we like.
I don't believe we're puppets.
I believe that our Father gave us choices

Oh I agree God gives us choices but these generally turn into Calvinism vs Free-will even when the OP wasn't about such. And then it get's bad. I hope I'm wrong on that.

 

[sunlover1]

Blue gill are fun!

Too cold for some of us!

Put the winter cover on the boat till early spring.

BRRR, I'm with you Optimax!
Way too cold to clean fish in this weather too.

Oh I agree God gives us choices but these generally turn into Calvinism vs Free-will even when the OP wasn't about such. And then it get's bad. I hope I'm wrong on that.

I'm just naive enough to think people can and will consider new ideas...
realize that they/we CAN be and ARE often ....wrong

Silly, I know.

 

[Rev Randy]

There we have it.
God's lips to our ears!
Thanks Cribstyl!


Hi Spiritandtruth, welcome to CF.
So you believe then that if I SIN, that was GOD's will?


We do!
Great to read your posts and good to see you Patience7!


Hmmmmm.
Not sure.
Just discussing if God wills us to sin or if we have our own free will to
do as we like.
I don't believe we're puppets.
I believe that our Father gave us choices

BRRR, I'm with you Optimax!
Way too cold to clean fish in this weather too.


I'm just naive enough to think people can and will consider new ideas...
realize that they/we CAN be and ARE often ....wrong

Silly, I know.

Nothing silly about hope.

 

[Jipsah]

Some folks believe that we don't have free will.
Thought by now you'd have heard of them

Not only heard of them, I'm routinely accused of being one of them. Those of us who believe in predestination (kinda like St. Paul) are always accused of believing that God predestines everything that happens and is therefore responsible for sin, ad nauseum. Pretty stupid, really. We're obviously "free" to disobey God, and equally as free to love and obey God. The trick is that we use our vaunted Free Will to disobey, and not to obey. That is unless God takes us in hand and changes our hearts.

Weren't you baptist before?

Long time ago. I was a Presbyterian longest, but became persuaded of the Real Presence of our Lord in the Eucharist, and found a home in the Anglican church. My soteriology is still pretty much Presbyterian, though, which fortunately doesn't conflict with Anglican teaching.

Personally, I NEED the mercy and grace of God.

That makes at least two of us.

 

[granpa]

freewhim is an illusion which is why you should not judge others when they err
but if you err you should expect to receive correction.

So you do believe that if I sin it's because it's GOD's will?

No. I believe its physics.

 

[sunlover1]

Nothing silly about hope.

You're kind of new here?

Not only heard of them, I'm routinely accused of being one of them.

Oopsy.

Those of us who believe in predestination (kinda like St. Paul) are always accused of believing that God predestines everything that happens and is therefore responsible for sin, ad nauseum.

Some of them DO say just that, thus this thread.

 

[Rev Randy]

You're kind of new here?


Oopsy.


Some of them DO say just that, thus this thread.

And the hope begins to fade

 

[Optimax]

As far as if you have free will or not?

Question.

Can you do what you want to do?

Answer.

Yes!

There will be consequences.......positive........or negative.

Can you say what you want to say?

Answer.

Yes!

There will be consequences.......positive........or negative.

Can you choose what you will do, think, and say in every situation encountered in life?

Answer.

Yes!

There will be consequences.......positive........or negative.

 

[sunlover1]

And the hope begins to fade

Oops, sorry lol.
Truth isn't always lovely is it?

As far as if you have free will or not?

Question.

Can you do what you want to do?

Answer.

Yes!

There will be consequences.......positive........or negative.

Can you say what you want to say?

Answer.

Yes!

There will be consequences.......positive........or negative.

Can you choose what you will do, think, and say in every situation encountered in life?

Answer.

Yes!

There will be consequences.......positive........or negative.

Dang, always a catch!
Those consequences lurking on the horizon actually help me
to make better choices. Might be a bit immature like a horse
needing a blinder but w/e it takes! Consequences sting!