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Then God loses and is not omnipotent. Man's will is.
Thank you Anastasia. Possible you could give me some link to the orthodox position on hell, so that I could compare it to my own opinions which I have outlined in my post. I am a former evangelical Christian, I've just spent 28 days in prison, for telling the truth about a local group of street evangelists. The court has banned me from naming names, so i cannot tell you what has happened, but now in the UK, when Christian leaders sin and facilitate paedophiles, they go straight to the police to silence whistleblowers such as myself. Britain is now PC mad.
Saying you deserve hell is quite Orthodox. Saying other people do, is not at all.
God doesn't lose because God does not desire to force everyone's will
It isn't about forcing the will but rather about leaving one in darkness, which is quite the opposite. Viewed this way, one sees that it is no longer about God compelling the one condemned, but about liberating the one condemned. A human being unhindered by the passions and other distractions is inclined towards God. Thus the question isn't "Should/will God force someone to go against their will?" but "Will God leave an individual in their impairment?"God doesn't lose because God does not desire to force everyone's will
A human being unhindered by the passions and other distractions is inclined towards God. Thus the question isn't "Should/will God force someone to go against their will?" but "Will God leave an individual in their impairment?"
It isn't about forcing the will but rather about leaving one in darkness, which is quite the opposite. Viewed this way, one sees that it is no longer about God compelling the one condemned, but about liberating the one condemned. A human being unhindered by the passions and other distractions is inclined towards God. Thus the question isn't "Should/will God force someone to go against their will?" but "Will God leave an individual in their impairment?"
Saying that God allows some to be damned because he doesn't want to "force will" is like saying one allows an individual to remain confined in their shackles because they don't want to limit their freedom.`
no, because He allows man to go to the natural end of man's choices, that does not mean He is not all powerful. it simply means He honors man's freedom. just because a bodybuilder lifts 50 lbs on a bench press, that does not mean he is that weak. it just means he chose to lift 50. God choosing to allow someone to remain in hell has nothing to do with His omnipotence, only that He honors our choice.
Actually, it's more like leaving them in their shackles, because after showing them the key and telling them they will be free, they would rather remain in the shackles. and the key is never out of their reach.
And after they come to their senses, as did the Prodigal, they will gladly take the key, free themselves, and kneel at the feet of the Master in repentance and sorrow for their sins.
Matt, I hope you know that I respect and honor you, but this simply will not fly.
If God "honored his choices" with me, I would still be doing drugs, fornicating, getting drunk on the weekends, and blaspheming God. Quite frankly, I am very glad that He did not honor the wretched choices I was making between ages 18 and 22.
But let's look at this another way, which I think is in sync with Orthodox understanding of God's immense love for us. As I understand it, God never stops expressing His love towards us. As expressed in Kalomiros' RIVER OF FIRE, that continual expression of passionate love towards all mankind is that which blesses the believer and torments the saint.
Therefore, if the full expression of the love of God both chastises and torments the sinner to the point that the sinner turns to God and says "I am sorry. I was wrong. Please forgive me." then according to what you said about honoring the choice, God will then restore them to their teleological end.
I think the real distinction here is the amount of time required. Some come to this knowledge in this life. I was "hardened" in my sins. I loved them, couldn't get enough of them, and wanted nothing to do with Christians other than to make fun of their God. At what point does God say "Okay. That's what you want, you may have it." A year? Five, ten or twenty years? Or in eternity? Each person is different in the amount of time required to come to understand their nothingness without God. Some people in this never learn that lesson. They will have to see God, see His goodness, and see their true condition so that they are reduced to nothingness, according to Fr. Sergius Bulgakov.
May the sinner repent of his sins in the afterlife? Absolutely, answers Bulgakov. The departed soul does not lose his freedom and creative energy. He has acquired a new kind of existence that involves an expansion and deepening of spiritual knowledge. Repentance in the afterlife must be different from repentance in our earthly life. The departed soul no longer acts in the world as he once did. Hence he no longer has available to him the kind of penitence made possible by historical existence. But still the person may repent and change his orientation toward God:
Of course, here too, the fullness of the life of the living is different from that of the dead, and the measure of their repentance is not the same. Clearly, the repentance of the deceased, as a complex inner process of awakening to spiritual life, differs from what takes place in the living. Earthly life is a foundation for the future life, but it is not the only foundation. Earthly life and the afterlife are connected as different aspects of the one life of one and the same spirit. One usually prefers to conceive the afterlife state of “sinners” (but who is free of sin and therefore does not need to repent?) in the juridical and penitentiary form of a sentence served in an afterlife prison, without possibility of pardon or parole. However, it is completely impossible to allow that the spirit could be in a state so static, so frozen in an unchanging spasm or so immersed in passive contemplation of its past actions and deprived of the capacity for future life. … From all this we conclude that the afterlife state is not death, and not even a stupor of the spirit, but a continuation of the life of the spirit begun on earth. Thus, despite the reduced condition for this life which passes outside the body and despite a certain passivity resulting from this, the afterlife state cannot be considered as given once and for all and unchanging, with the total absence of creative freedom. Rather, it is a continuation of spiritual life, which does not end on the other side of death’s threshold. The afterlife state is a stage of the path leading to resurrection. (pp. 365-366)
(Remember, Fr. Bulkagov died in a state of holiness, with the Light of Tabor shining from his body so that all at his deathbed saw it.)
Yes, God honors our choices, but He allows us to change our minds. What you suggest is the idea that once a person dies, there is no further opportunity for change. Yet there is neither Patristic nor Scripture support for such an idea.
we hope, but they have the capacity to eternally reject the key. some might not come to their senses, as it were.
I guess that is the best thing that I can say at this time. I don't feel I can say I am a full-blown, committed, die-hard Universalist, but I do have a great hope in God's abundant and overflowing mercy.
One thing that understanding the Universalist writings has done (and is still doing) for me is that I see our Father in a new light - one of His immense love for mankind. It was kind of hard to see Him in that light as one understanding Western punitive and retributive eschatology. This gives me hope and more love for Him.
yes, as we all should.
Indeed, so those in hell are still loved by God, and that love is what causes the torment. it's not that He loves them any less, it's that they reject His love and cannot flee His love.
That's exactly my belief. I first learned of this Orthodox understanding (in direct opposition to Dante's Inferno and Western eschatology) when I read Dr. Alexandre Kalomiros' paper THE RIVER OF FIRE. The minute I finished it I loved it all. It is totally in sync with "God is love" and yet puts the responsibility for our destiny in our hands. It is indeed we who reject His love, and not He who tortures mankind like some vicious "god" of the pagan deities.
I guess that is the best thing that I can say at this time. I don't feel I can say I am a full-blown, committed, die-hard Universalist, but I do have a great hope in God's abundant and overflowing mercy.
One thing that understanding the Universalist writings has done (and is still doing) for me is that I see our Father in a new light - one of His immense love for mankind. It was kind of hard to see Him in that light as one understanding Western punitive and retributive eschatology. This gives me hope and more love for Him.
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