Do we deserve hell?

snowpumpkin

Newbie
Mar 11, 2012
131
14
Eastern USA
✟7,816.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I'm not saying you have to believe in it. but your statement that the toll houses began as the speculation of one man (Fr. Seraphim?) is most certainly not true.

For instance, St. Seraphim of Sarov said that the Lord Himself revealed to him that 2 abbesses were having difficulty passing through the toll houses and needed his prayers. Assuming St. Seraphim is correct that it was the Lord Who revealed this, it is certainly not speculation.

I'm not trying to be ornery and I, in no way, try to hide the fact that I am awful at being Orthodox, but this is why we need another council. The church officially needs to address these things so we can have an official stance. Here is another article on the toll houses. And I'm sorry to the OP for having brought up this topic.

Death and the Toll-Houses

"We may therefore conclude that there is nothing heretical in the notion of the tollhouses – provided we remember that it is a metaphor and not a literal description of events."
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Protoevangel

Smash the Patriarchy!
Feb 6, 2004
11,662
1,248
Eugene, OR
✟33,297.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
In Relationship
"We may therefore conclude that there is nothing heretical in the notion of the tollhouses – provided we remember that it is a metaphor and not a literal description of events."
No problem there. They are indeed real... But to the best of my recollection, no Saint has ever said they were "literal". Especially Fr. Seraphim Rose. They speak of a reality beyond our comprehension. ONLY the critics demand a literal understanding when they tear apart their straw-men.



EDIT:
Fr Seraphim Rose said:
The Soul After Death

"Perhaps no aspect of Orthodox eschatology has been so misunderstood as this phenomenon of the aerial toll-houses… The modern rationalistic over-emphasis on the “literal” meaning of texts and a “realistic” or this-worldly understanding of the events described in Scripture and in the Lives of Saints – have tended to obscure or even blot out entirely the spiritual meanings and spiritual experiences which are often primary in Orthodox sources…"

"Thus, of course, there are no visible “houses” or “booths” in the air where “taxes” are collected, and where there is mention of “scrolls” or writing implements whereby sins are recorded, or “scales” by which virtues are weighed, or “gold” by which “debts” are paid – in all such cases we may properly understand these images to be figurative or interpretive devices used to express the spiritual reality which the soul faces at that time. Whether the soul actually sees these images at the time, due to its lifelong habit of seeing spiritual reality only through bodily forms, or later can remember the experience only by use of such images, or simply finds it impossible to express what it has experienced in any other way – this is all a very secondary question which does not seem to have been important to the Holy Fathers and writers of saints’ lives who have recorded such experiences."

"Accept earthly things here as the weakest kind of depiction of heavenly things.' One must picture the toll-houses not in a sense that is crude and sensuous, but - as far as possible for us - in a spiritual sense, and not be tied down to details which, in the various writers and various accounts of the Church herself, are presented in various ways, even though the basic idea of the toll-houses is one and the same"

"in all such cases we may properly understand these images to be figurative or interpretive devices used to express the spiritual reality which the soul faces at that time."
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Colleen1

Legend
Feb 11, 2011
31,059
2,301
✟56,731.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I don't see why we wouldn't deserve Hell. Do we deserve salvation? No, of course not. As the Scriptures tell us, it's a gift. Every one of us, except the Theotokos, has chosen to reject God with every sin. God's perfection is so far beyond what we can even comprehend that we can't even come near deserving to share in it for all eternity. It is only because God is loving and merciful that we don't all end up in Hell.

God is certainly perfect beyond our comprehension. :amen:
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,562
20,082
41
Earth
✟1,466,914.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I would say in a sense yes, we do deserve hell because our actions have real consequences. God warns us constantly of what happens to us if we go down that road. St Paul even says that the wages of sin is death. a wage is what is both desired and deserved for a particular work that you do. most of us think that since hell is so bad that we don't both deserve and desire it. if our works are evil, then hell is both what we want and what we have coming to us.

now, does that mean that God somehow turns His back on those in hell? no, He does not. He never stops crying out to everyone to repent and accept His mercy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Colleen1
Upvote 0

truthseeker32

Lost in the Cosmos
Nov 30, 2010
1,066
52
✟16,510.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
now, does that mean that God somehow turns His back on those in hell? no, He does not. He never stops crying out to everyone to repent and accept His mercy.
If it is at any time possible to turn to God and leave Hell behind then I am okay with the idea of deserving hell. It is the idea that one is permanently confined to suffer, even if they later change their mind.
 
Upvote 0
Oct 15, 2008
19,375
7,273
Central California
✟274,079.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
AGain I say that Satan wants you to dwell on hell....dwell on it and wade through it mentally. I would say, focus on heaven, The Divine and Holy, Life-Giving Trinity, not the demons and sadness of Gehenna.

Might I appeal to the Tolkien in you? Stop staring at the orcs, goblins, and uruks. Focus on the elves man....the elves! :)

If it is at any time possible to turn to God and leave Hell behind then I am okay with the idea of deserving hell. It is the idea that one is permanently confined to suffer, even if they later change their mind.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,562
20,082
41
Earth
✟1,466,914.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
If it is at any time possible to turn to God and leave Hell behind then I am okay with the idea of deserving hell. It is the idea that one is permanently confined to suffer, even if they later change their mind.

of course it is possible, because the damned never lose their freewill. if Satan would turn back to God, God would recieve him. the question is not whether or not one can, but if one's heart is so hardened that they never will by their own choice.
 
Upvote 0

InnerPhyre

Well-Known Member
Nov 13, 2003
14,573
1,470
✟71,967.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
For my pride, my selfishness, and my other sins, I am unworthy of eternal life with Christ. I do not deserve it. Like St. Peter said after the miracle "Depart from me, Lord. I am a sinful man." We are unworthy of our Father's house, so yes, I would say we deserve hell. But God loves us enough to want to save us in spite of our wretchedness. When a sinner goes to hell, God doesn't rejoice and say "Ha! See? He deserved it and now he got what was coming to him." God rejoices when we repent and receive His gift of salvation.

So we deserve hell, but not in the same way that the Calvinists say we do. Their version of God creates people unworthy of hell and happily kicks them out the door knowing full well that they had no chance of salvation.

I agree though. Don't focus on hell. Focus on what is good and let your mind be changed by it. Be mindful of death and hopeful of everlasting life.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Colleen1
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Colleen1

Legend
Feb 11, 2011
31,059
2,301
✟56,731.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
For my pride, my selfishness, and my other sins, I am unworthy of eternal life with Christ. I do not deserve it. Like St. Peter said after the miracle "Depart from me, Lord. I am a sinful man." We are unworthy of our Father's house, so yes, I would say we deserve hell. But God loves us enough to want to save us in spite of our wretchedness. When a sinner goes to hell, God doesn't rejoice and say "Ha! See? He deserved it and now he got what was coming to him." God rejoices when we repent and receive His gift of salvation.

So we deserve hell, but not in the same way that the Calvinists say we do. Their version of God creates people unworthy of hell and happily kicks them out the door knowing full well that they had no chance of salvation.

I agree though. Don't focus on hell. Focus on what is good and let your mind be changed by it. Be mindful of death and hopeful of everlasting life.

Excellent post! :thumbsup: :D Thanks :)
 
Upvote 0

truthseeker32

Lost in the Cosmos
Nov 30, 2010
1,066
52
✟16,510.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I agree though. Don't focus on hell. Focus on what is good and let your mind be changed by it. Be mindful of death and hopeful of everlasting life.
In discerning truth, isn't it important to study all aspects of a religion's theology?

I've actually been speaking with some of my RC friends about this and they said it was wrong of the bible study group leader to say we deserve hell. Their position actually didn't sound too much different than the EO position.
 
Upvote 0

InnerPhyre

Well-Known Member
Nov 13, 2003
14,573
1,470
✟71,967.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
In discerning truth, isn't it important to study all aspects of a religion's theology?

I've actually been speaking with some of my RC friends about this and they said it was wrong of the bible study group leader to say we deserve hell. Their position actually didn't sound too much different than the EO position.

I'm not saying ignore hell. I'm just saying don't let it be your focus.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,562
20,082
41
Earth
✟1,466,914.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I'm not saying ignore hell. I'm just saying don't let it be your focus.

amen. kinda like what Elder Porphyrios said. to drive out the darkness, let in the light. you do not fight against the darkness yourself, because you will lose.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Colleen1
Upvote 0
Oct 15, 2008
19,375
7,273
Central California
✟274,079.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
But can anyone also not look at themselves and think that God's original intent for us all was paradise, theosis, His uncreated light, joy, and salvation? "deserve hell" is a Western cynical phraseology that I think works awkwardly within an Eastern framework. We deserve what God wants for us. If we disregard the Most Holy Trinity, then we choose hell. It's not our default "deserving." If we don't want God in our lives and reject the sacramental life, then we will find hell.

Can any person actually examine themselves and think they don't deserve hell?

If we look at the truth of ourselves it's all the more glory to God for His mercy and forgiveness!
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,183
1,229
71
Sebring, FL
✟666,787.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
I attend a bible reading group at the local Roman Catholic parish, and tonight something rubbed me the wrong way. There are a lot of beliefs I hold in common with my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters, but I guess the one I encountered tonight, although I am sure I have heard it before, is the idea that we DESERVE hell. As soon as I heard this, my "that isn't right" trigger went off.

Just to be clear, I am not a universalist who believes we all deserve heaven. I suppose I am in a middle way that doesn't believe we deserve either, unless we choose them, and by choose I mean choose with real awareness.

What is your perspective on this? Do we deserve hell, or is it just a grave possibility for those who choose to reject God? Both? Neither?


I have heard a Roman Catholic priest from Ireland say, in a church service, that the entire human race deserves hell because of the sins of Adam and Eve. I will have to disagree with those who say that this is a Protestant belief.

My own view is somewhat different. I believe that God created us for happiness but for those who drift away from God and His ways, the soul deteriorates until Hell is the unfortunately result.




*

*
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gwendolyn
Upvote 0