Do These Verses Fit with Calvinism?

[DArceri]

Originally Posted by TraderJack
Are saying that fallen man has the natural ability in his fallen state to exercise his own free will which he is born with to choose God on his own?

Of course he does.

God's grace reaches out to all men because he desires that all men are saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.

He knows who will reject his grace, but he doesn't make that decision, we do.

God created us in his image.

Ches,
Yes, man is created in God's image so he can commune with God, but commune HOW? On on a spiritual level, RIGHT?..For God is Spirit. However, all that changed at the fall. Man's inner nature, ie. his soul, has been corrupted. Because of the fall and resultant curse on creation, man was spiritually disconnected with God, for God cannot relate to self glorified beings. Man's sin, his desire to please 'self', causes a spiritual separation. God's dwelling place with man, which once resided with man in the 'Garden', no longer exists. Yes, God's love and grace reaches out throughout the world, however, you cannot argue that man seeks God's glory on his own. It is not anywhere in scripture. Now, man may seek God's presence because the heavens speak cleary of His existance, however, man will only seek God's presence for selfish motives, not for God's glory. Man is still lord in his own life, not God. Man will bring God down to his own level of thinking, instead of rising up to God's level of thinking. Thus, man may think he has a personal relationship or spiritual connection, but God knows the heart. These are your carnal Christians in the world. They are the ones God says, begone, for I do not know you... Bottom line, God has to draw you to Him, He needs to 'prepare' your heart....Only those who have been spiritually enlightened of God's inner beauty and Love, can 'SEE' this beauty and seek BOTH His presence AND His Glory. The more one understand the pure holiness of God, the more unclean one feels. He sees his sin as God sees it. So the question remains for you to answer, how can a corrupt, darkened, self-centered soul (ie. seeker of the selfish things of FLESH), seek and recognize things of the spirit w/o God's help? The bible is clear that the only way in which the heart can be freed from 'the self' is if God enlightens us (spiritual awakening) to His beauty, love, and grace. Only the Holy Spirit can give this to a person...... That which is of the flesh is flesh, that which is of the spirit is spirit.

 

[chestertonrules]

Ches,
Yes, man is created in God's image so he can commune with God, but commune HOW? On on a spiritual level, RIGHT?..For God is Spirit. However, all that changed at the fall. Man's inner nature, ie. his soul, has been corrupted. Because of the fall and resultant curse on creation, man was spiritually disconnected with God, for God cannot relate to self glorified beings. Man's sin, his desire to please 'self', causes a spiritual separation. God's dwelling place with man, which once resided with man in the 'Garden', no longer exists. Yes, God's love and grace reaches out throughout the world, however, you cannot argue that man seeks God's glory on his own. It is not anywhere in scripture. Now, man may seek God's presence because the heavens speak cleary of His existance, however, man will only seek God's presence for selfish motives, not for God's glory. Man is still lord in his own life, not God. Man will bring God down to his own level of thinking, instead of rising up to God's level of thinking. Thus, man may think he has a personal relationship or spiritual connection, but God knows the heart. These are your carnal Christians in the world. They are the ones God says, begone, for I do not know you... Bottom line, God has to draw you to Him, He needs to 'prepare' your heart....Only those who have been spiritually enlightened of God's inner beauty and Love, can 'SEE' this beauty and seek BOTH His presence AND His Glory. The more one understand the pure holiness of God, the more unclean one feels. He sees his sin as God sees it. So the question remains for you to answer, how can a corrupt, darkened, self-centered soul (ie. seeker of the selfish things of FLESH), seek and recognize things of the spirit w/o God's help? The bible is clear that the only way in which the heart can be freed from 'the self' is if God enlightens us (spiritual awakening) to His beauty, love, and grace. Only the Holy Spirit can give this to a person...... That which is of the flesh is flesh, that which is of the spirit is spirit.

Man's sin, his desire to please 'self', causes a spiritual separation.

Did God create us so we would be separated from him on purpose?

Yes, God's love and grace reaches out throughout the world, however, you cannot argue that man seeks God's glory on his own.

Why not. Didn't God make us for this purpose?

Man is still lord in his own life, not God. Man will bring God down to his own level of thinking, instead of rising up to God's level of thinking.

Is this what John Calvin did?

So the question remains for you to answer, how can a corrupt, darkened, self-centered soul (ie. seeker of the selfish things of FLESH), seek and recognize things of the spirit w/o God's help?

God wants all men to be saved, so he reaches out and helps all men. At that point, man decides to accept or reject God's grace. God keeps reaching out. Jesus stands at the door and knocks, but he won't force us to let him in.

 

[angelmom01]

((Doesn't that change the meaning (definiton) of "predestines"?))

Not at all. Since he knows what our actions will be, he had determined our fate based on those actions.

Then it is NOT HE but WE who have "determined" our own fate... based on our own actions and the consequences of those actions, is it not? Isn't that what you are claiming?

How does "predestination" (on God's part) factor into that? You are talking about God deciding what WILL happen AFTER THE FACT based on His "foreknowledge" of the conclusion. That is not "predestination" then.

We are predestined because God has already placed us in heaven or hell. We still have free will because he has done this based on our decision to accept or reject him.

Again, foreknowledge is not the same thing as predestination.

To "predetermine" something is to DECIDE BEFOREHAND what WILL BE. It's not just a matter of knowing (in advance) what the outcome will be. It's a matter of making things happen in such a way that you get the desired outcome.

God wants us all to choose to follow him, but he doesn't make us.

Obviously.

We are trapped in time, so scripture is written with that reality in mind.

So then you are saying that, outside the realm of time, foreknowledge = predestination?

 

[angelmom01]

If man will always do anything, then the choice is not free, it is by design.

Difficult to comprehend?

God created us in his image. He wants us to choose him, but he won't force us.

Did God create us in His image or is He creating us in His image?

Remember that THE FLESH (the natural man, which was FIRST FORMED) wars against THE SPIRIT (that which comes AFTER, when we are BORN AGAIN, or begotten from above, which is what is CREATED in His image and after His likeness).

He loves us.

So the logic in this statement is that God loves us so much that He will not "force" us to obey Him?

Wouldn't that mean that He doesn't love us enough to keep us from eternal torment, then, if that is where our "freedom" leads us?

So then, our freedom to choose is more important than our eternal welfare?