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Do These Verses Fit with Calvinism?

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simonthezealot

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From your same source...

1 Timothy 2:4-6: "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all..."
First of all, Jesus is the mediator for the believers, not the unbelievers. To me, "men" in this verse can only mean the elect, the Christians. Though I understand how an Arminian would interpret this verse, the Calvinist position is more consistent with the rest of the scriptures I've examined.
Second, considering that "all" in 2 Cor. 5:14-15, 1 Cor. 15:22, and Rom. 5:18 can only mean the Christians, it follows that when we approach verses like 1 Tim. 2:4-6, there is legitimacy in interpreting it in a consistent manner with the other verses; that is, the "all" is the elect. Therefore, 1 Tim. 2:4 can have two possible interpretations:
1) The Arminian: The "all" means every individual.
2) The Calvinist: The "all" means the Christians. But since the Arminian interpretation would contradict the interpretations found in 2 Cor. 5:14-15, 1 Cor. 15:22, and Rom. 5:18, we are left with the Calvinist interpretation as the only legitimate one; namely, that the "all" means the Christians.
Also, there is the problem of answering how the desire of God is thwarted. The Arminian position has the desires of God frequently thwarted in addition to having the decision of God depend on the decision of man. God can only save someone if that someone makes the right choice.

2 Pet. 3:9: "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."
Peter wrote this epistle to the Christians. "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1). Also, "This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you..." (2 Peter 3:1).
In the immediate context, verse 8, says, "But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."
It is very clear that Peter is talking to the believers. It follows, then, that in verse 9 when it says the Lord is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish, he again is speaking of the believers. God's patience is here told to be toward the believers, not the unbelievers. God does not want any of them (the believers, the elect) to perish. And they won't, because God's wishes are not thwarted. But again if "any" is every individual then we again have the problem of God's desires being thwarted.
 
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chestertonrules

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(((1 Timothy 2:4-6: "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all..."
First of all, Jesus is the mediator for the believers, not the unbelievers. To me, "men" in this verse can only mean the elect, the Christians. )))


To me.....???

Who cares? That's not what the bible says.

More:

- Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

EVERY MAN!

- John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.


Who refuses to believe? Is this a choice?




((( 2 Pet. 3:9: "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."
Peter wrote this epistle to the Christians.)))


Christians have already come to repentance.

So, clearly, the ALL in this case is universal.
 
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angelmom01

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chestertonrules said:
What gives Calvin the authority to change the meaning of scripture by making up new definitions for simple words?
I would tend to agree that many, not just Calvinists, do this from time to time. :eek:

However, you go on to say (bold mine):

chestertonrules said:
God knows what will happen. There is no present past or future to God.

All our thoughts and actions have always been known to him.

He predestines those who do not reject his grace to heaven.
Doesn't that change the meaning (definiton) of "predestines"? :confused:

Calvinists reconcile the verses about predestination and God's desire to save "all" one way. Mainstream or traditional Christians reconcile those same verses another way and those who believe in universal salvation reconcile them yet another way.

There just may be more "interpretations" of the Bible then there are "translations" of the Bible. And everyone has their own reason for believing that "their" interpretation is the "correct" one. :sorry:

So, asking sort of rhetorically, just how do we know which interpretaion IS the correct one? :scratch:

Scripture says that God desire that "all men" be saved. It also speaks of "predestination", yet it also speaks of those who "perish".

I would agree that "the truth" lies somewhere in the "meaning" of these words, though, I do not understand how predistination suddenly becomes a synonym for God's foreknowledge when speaking biblically, when it means to "declare", "proclaim" or "determine" something beforehand. :help:

G4309
προορίζω
proorizō
pro-or-id'-zo
From G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine: - determine before, ordain, predestinate.
 
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DArceri

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- Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."
How does this prove your point? The Calvanist can say that the 'chosen' are the ones who will do His work. The 'unchosen' are the ones who will not do His work.

Originally Posted by chestertonrules
EVERY MAN!

- John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.


Who refuses to believe? Is this a choice?
Again, same thing, how does this refute the Calvanist? Those that refuse to do God's work are theoretically, the unchosen.



((( 2 Pet. 3:9: "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."
Peter wrote this epistle to the Christians.)))

Originally Posted by chestertonrules

Christians have already come to repentance.

So, clearly, the ALL in this case is universal
.
The Calvanist can say this is proof that God has set apart a certain number to Himself for salvation, right? Once that number arrives, the second coming of the Lord is immenant.
 
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chestertonrules

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I would tend to agree that many, not just Calvinists, do this from time to time. :eek:

However, you go on to say (bold mine):

Doesn't that change the meaning (definiton) of "predestines"? :confused:

Calvinists reconcile the verses about predestination and God's desire to save "all" one way. Mainstream or traditional Christians reconcile those same verses another way and those who believe in universal salvation reconcile them yet another way.

There just may be more "interpretations" of the Bible then there are "translations" of the Bible. And everyone has their own reason for believing that "their" interpretation is the "correct" one. :sorry:

So, asking sort of rhetorically, just how do we know which interpretaion IS the correct one? :scratch:

Scripture says that God desire that "all men" be saved. It also speaks of "predestination", yet it also speaks of those who "perish".

I would agree that "the truth" lies somewhere in the "meaning" of these words, though, I do not understand how predistination suddenly becomes a synonym for God's foreknowledge when speaking biblically, when it means to "declare", "proclaim" or "determine" something beforehand. :help:

G4309
προορίζω
proorizō
pro-or-id'-zo
From G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine: - determine before, ordain, predestinate.
((Doesn't that change the meaning (definiton) of "predestines"?))

Not at all. Since he knows what our actions will be, he had determined our fate based on those actions. We are predestined because God has already placed us in heaven or hell. We still have free will because he has done this based on our decision to accept or reject him.

God wants us all to choose to follow him, but he doesn't make us.

We are trapped in time, so scripture is written with that reality in mind.
 
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chestertonrules

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darceri:


Quote:
Originally Posted by chestertonrules

- Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."


How does this prove your point? The Calvanist can say that the 'chosen' are the ones who will do His work. The 'unchosen' are the ones who will not do His work.

The verse clearly says that God will render to every man ACCORDING to his works, not that works will follow those who God has rendered to.

((gain, same thing, how does this refute the Calvanist? Those that refuse to do God's work are theoretically, the unchosen.))

Accepting or rejecting Jesus is a choice made by man, not by God. This is a direct refutation of Calvinism.

((The Calvanist can say this is proof that God has set apart a certain number to Himself for salvation, right? Once that number arrives, the second coming of the Lord is immenant.))

Calvinists say many things. However, that has nothing to do with this passage:


2 Pet. 3:9: "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."
Peter wrote this epistle to the Christians.)))



What we learn here:

God wants all to come to him, even the unrepentant.

God does not wish, or will, any to perish.
 
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DArceri

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What we learn here:

God wants all to come to him, even the unrepentant.

God does not wish, or will, any to perish.
Then why did Jesus speak in parables? Isn't there a Divine Will that takes precedence at some point? The Cross is an example of a Divine Will. Also Rev 17:17 says, ....God put it into the hearts of people to rebel so that His prophetic word could be fulfilled.
 
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chestertonrules

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Then why did Jesus speak in parables? Isn't there a Divine Will that takes precedence at some point? The Cross is an example of a Divine Will. Also Rev 17:16 says, ....God put it into the hearts of people to rebel so that His prophetic word could be fulfilled.

I quote scripture, you ask why.

I don't know why God wants all men to be saved.

I don't know why God does not want any to perish.

Is it your point that God wants some to suffer eternally through no fault of their own?

Is that love? Is that mercy?


I am forming my opinion based on scripture.

Is this what the bible says?
 
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DArceri

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I quote scripture, you ask why.

I don't know why God wants all men to be saved.

I don't know why God does not want any to perish.

Is it your point that God wants some to suffer eternally through no fault of their own?

Is that love? Is that mercy?


I am forming my opinion based on scripture.

Is this what the bible says?
Lets not forget all of mankind deserves to perish. GOD IS HOLY AND RIGHTEOUS (not just Love)!!!!......Let's not forget those attributes...It is by GRACE, he saves. Not of our own doing.
 
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chestertonrules

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Lets not forget all of mankind deserves to perish. GOD IS HOLY AND RIGHTEOUS (not just Love)!!!!......Let's not forget those attributes...It is by GRACE, he saves. Not of our own doing.
Why does mankind deserve to perish?

Did God create us in his image or not?
 
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chestertonrules

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UGGGGHHH...you got to be kidding me...Then why are we relying on His Grace if we don't deserve to perish?
God created us as we are, by design.

He wants all men to be saved, according to the bible.

Not all men are saved, according to the bible.

He gives us clear instructions because he wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.

Perhaps it would help if you read all the bible rather than the meager portion used by Calvinists:

John 15

10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

Matthew 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

- James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by WORKS, and not by faith alone."


God created us with free wills. If you choose to reject his will, then you will pay the consequences.

Repent, then pick up your cross and follow.
 
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DArceri

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God created us with free wills. If you choose to reject his will, then you will pay the consequences.

Repent, then pick up your cross and follow.
In Genesis, didn't God curse all of creation? Didn't man separate himself from God by his desire to chose self over God. Scripture says man is born spiritually dead. He does not desire things of God. So pray tell, how in the heck is man going to come to God by his own free will if he is spiritually dead?
 
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chestertonrules

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In Genesis, didn't God curse all of creation? Didn't man separate himself from God by his desire to chose self over God. Scripture says man is born spiritually dead. He does not desire things of God. So pray tell, how in the heck is man going to come to God by his own free will if he is spiritually dead?
Man, or Adam?

God gives us a choice.

YOU have a choice.

God wants you to choose him, but he won't force you to!!
 
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DArceri

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Man, or Adam?

God gives us a choice.

YOU have a choice.

God wants you to choose him, but he won't force you to!!
We both agree man has a free choice, BUT.....man will always choose self over God if he is not given a new spirit and a new heart.
 
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chestertonrules

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We both agree man has a free choice, BUT.....man will always choose self over God if he is not given a new spirit and a new heart.
If man will always do anything, then the choice is not free, it is by design.

Difficult to comprehend?

God created us in his image. He wants us to choose him, but he won't force us.

He loves us.
 
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DArceri

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If man will always do anything, then the choice is not free, it is by design.
Rephrase this, I am not sure what you mean.

God created us in his image. He wants us to choose him, but he won't force us.

He loves us.
If God leaves us to our own faculties, we will choose self 100% of the time. That is what the fall is all about!
 
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