Do These Verses Fit with Calvinism?

[chestertonrules]

Rephrase this, I am not sure what you mean.

If God leaves us to our own faculties, we will choose self 100% of the time. That is what the fall is all about!

If we are incapable of choosing God, then we are designed as sinners.

Is this what you believe? That God designed us as incapable of seeking his grace?

 

[DArceri]

If we are incapable of choosing God, then we are designed as sinners.

Is this what you believe? That God designed us as incapable of seeking his grace?

You do not understand the Fall....Man (Adam) was created to commune with God on a spiritual level. Man had a personal relationship with God. HOWEVER, WHAT HAPPENED? What did God say to Adam if he should eat of the tree of life? God said he would surely die. But obviously this is not what he meant for Adam lived I think well over a 100 years. What God meant was man would die a 'spiritual death'. Why do you think Christ says man has to be born again to be saved?

 

[Rick Otto]

Brilliant.

You can do better than that, Rick.

I've heard that before.
It didn't sound any more honest then, either.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

The distinction is bogus, as I stated. God wants us to be saved. That is his will. However, he does not force us to accept him.

If you say the distinction is bogus, then your accusation against Calvinists is nonsensical.

Here is what you said:

If God wills all men to be saved, Calvinists must believe in universal salvation.

Help me out, Calvinists.

God wills all men to be saved, or God wants all men to be saved, same thing...

And of course Calvinists have been helping point out to you that we don’t believe God forces people to be saved. So your insistence just shows your ignorance of Calvinism...

How is the meaning different?

3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

3This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

I’ve already explained the difference in earlier posts...but of course, see the response below...

But certainly not everything God wills or desires is conditional based on man's response.

So what? I never made such a claim.

So in other words you are saying Luke 22:22 was God’s will that Jesus be crucified. That the plan for crucifixion was NOT conditional on man’s response. Which means that you are in agreement with Calvinism.

Now we go back to 1 Tim 2:4 where God wants/wills/desires all men to be saved. Will every single person be saved?

If you say yes, then you are clearly a universalist. If you say no, then you are making a distinction between God’s will or Luke 22:22 and God’s want/will/desire of 1 Tim 2:4....just like Calvinists.

Calvinists believe that God judges with partiallity applying no regard to man's merit or repentance.

Where do you come up with this stuff?
Calvinists hold to Matthew 16:27:
[FONT=&quot]For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.[/FONT]

Calvinists believe that God chooses those that he will save and rejects those whom he will damn.

Yes, you at least got this one right. God’s wrath already rests on all of mankind. Romans says that unbelievers are already condemned. God however in His grace and mercy has chosen and called those that He will save.

Calvinists believe in unconditional election.

Based on Romans 8:29-30

29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Predestined - called - justfied - glorified. That is a very tight - and Biblical - sequence set forth by Paul...

Why are Calvinists always denying their doctrine, or avoiding the logical flaws in their doctrine?

Why not admit the flaws and move on to a more biblical Christianity?

First of all, critics of Calvinism ought to get their facts straight about Calvinism. Its very easy to dismiss someone who distorts what they criticize. Its ironic when the critic is insisting on beliefs that Calvinists themselves don’t hold. Second, critics of Calvinism ought to be respectful. Those who come across as disrespectful, rude and arrogant are also easily dismissed. Third, those who only offer anti-Calvinist arguments without alternatives are airing empty words. Its as if they are afraid of putting forth their own view in case it might be criticized.

But of course, the worst thing a critic of Calvinism can do to affirm a Calvinist’s own view is to ignore the Scripture and questions set forth in counter argument by Calvinists.




LDG

 

[TraderJack]

Why does mankind deserve to perish?

Haven't you heard?

Romans 3

21 But now the righteousness from God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness

Mankind deserves to perish because of his sin.

Did God create us in his image or not?

An image so thoroughly damaged as to be dead to God, and which only God can fix.

 

[TraderJack]

If we are incapable of choosing God, then we are designed as sinners.

Are saying that fallen man has the natural ability in his fallen state to exercise his own free will which he is born with to choose God on his own?

 

[stumpjumper]

Thread topic looks more like a discussion of scripture than anything else.

Moving on over...

 

[chestertonrules]

Haven't you heard?

Romans 3


Mankind deserves to perish because of his sin.
An image so thoroughly damaged as to be dead to God, and which only God can fix.

I understand it quite well.

Do you think it came as a surprise to God?

 

[chestertonrules]

Are saying that fallen man has the natural ability in his fallen state to exercise his own free will which he is born with to choose God on his own?

All men can choose or reject God's will.

He wants all men to choose him.

Those who don't refuse God's grace are the elect.

God chooses those who follow his will:

1 Peter:

To God's elect...2who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:

17Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.

 

[Rick Otto]

All men can choose or reject God's will.

"All", only in the sense of "not just Jews"

He wants all men to choose him.

As an ideal, not as a practical part of His determinate council.

Those who don't refuse God's grace are the elect.

Because they have been destined for regeneration unto belief (Eph 1:4)

God chooses those who follow his will:

Exactly. God decides, man abides.

1Co 2:14 - The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Co 15:46 - The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.
Jude 1:19 - These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

 

[chestertonrules]

((And of course Calvinists have been helping point out to you that we don’t believe God forces people to be saved. So your insistence just shows your ignorance of Calvinism...
))

What does the I in TULIP stand for?

 

[chestertonrules]

(((Exactly. God decides, man abides.))


hmmm...

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love;


God already knows who will keep his commandments.

He chooses those who abide in the love of Christ.

 

[Rick Otto]

He already knows because He predestined.
He foreknows because He created with determination. It wasn't a creative spasm.

 

[TraderJack]

Originally Posted by TraderJack
Are saying that fallen man has the natural ability in his fallen state to exercise his own free will which he is born with to choose God on his own?

All men can choose or reject God's will.

You did not answer the question.

Does man with the nature he is born with have the ability in his fallen state to choose God of his natural ability?

Yes or no?

 

[Rick Otto]

((And of course Calvinists have been helping point out to you that we don’t believe God forces people to be saved. So your insistence just shows your ignorance of Calvinism...
))

What does the I in TULIP stand for?

Spiritual rebirth is as irresistable as physical birth, chez.
I can picture you in your mother's womb with a foot on either side of the birth canal, hangin' on to your umbilical cord thinkin'n, "Not me! I ain't leavin'! I can hear what goes on out there! It's a death trap out there & I'm not havin' any, thank you very much!"

 

[chestertonrules]

Originally Posted by TraderJack
Are saying that fallen man has the natural ability in his fallen state to exercise his own free will which he is born with to choose God on his own?


You did not answer the question.

Does man with the nature he is born with have the ability in his fallen state to choose God of his natural ability?

Yes or no?

Of course he does.

God's grace reaches out to all men because he desires that all men are saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.

He knows who will reject his grace, but he doesn't make that decision, we do.

God created us in his image.

 

[chestertonrules]

Spiritual rebirth is as irresistable as physical birth, chez.
I can picture you in your mother's womb with a foot on either side of the birth canal, hangin' on to your umbilical cord thinkin'n, "Not me! I ain't leavin'! I can hear what goes on out there! It's a death trap out there & I'm not havin' any, thank you very much!"

God loves the world. God desires that all men be saved.

If it was all up to God, why wouldn't we all be saved?

Did he give us a choice or not?

 

[Rick Otto]

Sure, we choose. Did He predestine creation selectively?
How could He not predestine unless He created without knowing what would happen? Is that being omniscient?

If He knew who wasn't going to choose Him, did He know why? If He knew why, why didn't He change whatever influenced that decision in salvation's favor? Would that eliminate the need for salvation at all?
Why even bother with a fall if He had power to prevent
it? Don't loving parents prevent their own children from harm?

What isn't up to the Creator of all things? Anything?


How can a man in his natural, unreborn spiritualy (spiritualy stillborn) condition, know or desire anything spiritual?
How does that jibe with this:
1Co 2:14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Howeth can he then chooseth to receiveth what he knoweth nothing of-eth, chestertoneth?

 

[chestertonrules]

((((Sure, we choose. Did He predestine creation selectively?
How could He not predestine unless He created without knowing what would happen? Is that being omniscient?)))

God knows how the world will end. It will end at the end of time. God is outside of time. He sees the beginning and end equally clearly.

In this big pot called the universe is man, who he created in his image. He gave these men instructions and a conscience by design. He has chosen those men, based on his impartial judgement, who follow his will.

He knows, but we choose to accept or reject his grace which is offered to us all.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=chestertonrules God knows how the world will end. It will end at the end of time.
God is outside of time. He sees the beginning and end equally clearly.

Where did you put His omnipresence?

In this big pot called the universe is man, who he created in his image. He gave these men instructions and a conscience by design. He has chosen those men, based on his impartial judgement, who follow his will.

He knows, but we choose to accept or reject his grace which is offered to us all.

Did He know this before He created it?
If so, its His responsibility for creating in such a way that someone would even think of rejecting Him, or His gift.
You have it sounding like an omniscient being didn't know when He created men, who would reject Him & who wouldn't. You have Him needing to look into the future to find out (clairvoyance). That isn't foreknowledge - nothing "fore" about it, if He has to look for it & see it before knowing it.