Do the Ten Commandments define sin? (nope)

fhansen · Aug 26, 2018

Saint Steven said:
If you believe the Ten Commandments define sin, you have left yourself lots of wiggle room.

These sins are not covered under the TCs.
- Pride
- Greed
- Envy
- Wrath, Fits of Rage
- Lust
- Gluttony
- Sloth
- Dishonesty, Deception
- Impurity, Debauchery
- Witchcraft, Sorcery
- Hatred, Indifference
- Jealousy
- Showing Favoritism, Prejudice and Discrimination
- Selfish Ambition, Self-Centeredness
- Withholding Remedy to Human or Animal Needs
- Drunkenness, Drug Abuse
- Fornication, Sodomy, Bestiality
- Discord, Dissensions, Factions
- Unbelief, Disbelief, Agnosticism, Atheism
- Etc.

The definition of sin is not limited to the Ten Commandments.
The definition of sin is not limited to the Books of the Law.
The definition of sin is not limited to the Old Testament.
The definition of sin is not even limited to the entire Bible.

Okay, back to your wiggling.

While I wouldn't necessarily take issue with your point, (the church has listed many of those as deadly sins for centuries), the TCs outline some very basic sins that we should be aware of and your others, with pride being the granddaddy, might be said to be the interior motivators for the external acts. Your list describes a heart that's not in the right place, a heart that's not pure. For example, pride directly opposes the first commandment; it's the very reason why man would refuse to acknowledge and worship God.

Hank77 · Aug 26, 2018

Soyeong said:
The fact that the covenant came later does not mean that it has different laws. A covenant with a different set of instructions for how to act in accordance with God's character traits would have to be made with a different god with different character traits.

The covenant that God made with Noah did not have the same commands, statues, or precepts as the covenant God made with Abraham, or the covenant that He made with Israel.
Why do you think God's character would have to change in order to make different covenants with different groups of people, under different circumstances, in different times?

Hank77 · Aug 26, 2018

Ken Rank said:
If you don't agree... no problem. But don't think you can change my mind in a CF post... I can write 400 pages on this topic and haven't scratched the surface as to why I believe this. I just shared a very small bit. Be blessed.

Yes Ken, I am aware that you have written 400 pgs. on this topic and have not scratched the surface.

royal priest · Aug 26, 2018

Saint Steven said:
If you believe the Ten Commandments define sin, you have left yourself lots of wiggle room.

These sins are not covered under the TCs.
- Pride
- Greed
- Envy
- Wrath, Fits of Rage
- Lust
- Gluttony
- Sloth
- Dishonesty, Deception
- Impurity, Debauchery
- Witchcraft, Sorcery
- Hatred, Indifference
- Jealousy
- Showing Favoritism, Prejudice and Discrimination
- Selfish Ambition, Self-Centeredness
- Withholding Remedy to Human or Animal Needs
- Drunkenness, Drug Abuse
- Fornication, Sodomy, Bestiality
- Discord, Dissensions, Factions
- Unbelief, Disbelief, Agnosticism, Atheism
- Etc.

The definition of sin is not limited to the Ten Commandments.
The definition of sin is not limited to the Books of the Law.
The definition of sin is not limited to the Old Testament.
The definition of sin is not even limited to the entire Bible.

Okay, back to your wiggling.

The 10C summarized addresses the root of your list: failure to love God and neighbor.
In fact, the 10C are so broad that perfect conformity to them will mean that you have loved perfectly (God with all your heart, all your mind, and all your strength.)

Ken Rank · Aug 26, 2018

Hank77 said:
Yes Ken, I am aware that you have written 400 pgs. on this topic and have not scratched the surface.

I was being honest. I can cut to the chase in some place... talk about the words chadashah and kainos meaning renewed... but to really study this, weigh it out... put some stuff side by side and see what stands more harmonious with all of Scripture, simply isn't something that can be done in a CF post.... if I expect anyone to read it. Thanks for the kind response...

Ed1wolf · Aug 26, 2018

Saint Steven said:
If you believe the Ten Commandments define sin, you have left yourself lots of wiggle room.

These sins are not covered under the TCs.
- Pride
- Greed
- Envy
- Wrath, Fits of Rage
- Lust
- Gluttony
- Sloth
- Dishonesty, Deception
- Impurity, Debauchery
- Witchcraft, Sorcery
- Hatred, Indifference
- Jealousy
- Showing Favoritism, Prejudice and Discrimination
- Selfish Ambition, Self-Centeredness
- Withholding Remedy to Human or Animal Needs
- Drunkenness, Drug Abuse
- Fornication, Sodomy, Bestiality
- Discord, Dissensions, Factions
- Unbelief, Disbelief, Agnosticism, Atheism
- Etc.

The definition of sin is not limited to the Ten Commandments.
The definition of sin is not limited to the Books of the Law.
The definition of sin is not limited to the Old Testament.
The definition of sin is not even limited to the entire Bible.

Okay, back to your wiggling.

Actually many of these that you list ARE covered by the Ten Commandments indirectly. Like atheism and disbelief are covered by the first commandment and greed is a form of coveting so it is covered by that one. What sin is not covered in the entire bible or By the basic general moral principles in the bible? For example there are specific sins to our generation that were unknown in biblical times, such as watching TV all day, but that is covered by general principles such as he who does not work does not eat and the first commandment.

Ken Rank · Aug 26, 2018

Ed1wolf said:
Actually many of these that you list ARE covered by the Ten Commandments indirectly. Like atheism and disbelief are covered by the first commandment. What sin is not covered in the entire bible or By the basic general moral principles in the bible? For example there are specific sins to our generation that were unknown in biblical times, such as watching TV all day, but that is covered by general principles such as he who does not work does not eat and the first commandment.

Good... or gluttony. You've done well to extend the spirit of the letter out to cover other areas.

AvgJoe · Aug 26, 2018

Dave L said:
We are saying the same thing in different ways. Inequality = selfishness.

But hatred does not equal selfishness, in every instance. A person can be selfish without any hate for the other person. Guess we see things a little differently.

S.O.J.I.A. · Aug 26, 2018

Saint Steven said:
Oh course, but they do not address them directly.

doesn't have to as they can be categorized under one or more of the 10 commandments.

for example: pride, greed, envy, jealousy, and lust would fall under the 10th commandment of covetousness.

SoldierOfTheKing · Aug 26, 2018

Saint Steven said:
No one said they were easy.

You did in the OP when you listed the sins allegedly not covered by the Ten Commandments. You specifically listed hatred and lust, when Matthew expressly tells us that they are covered by the Sixth and Seven commandments, respectively.

You also listed pride when 1 Samuel 15:23 tells us that pride like idolatry, which of course is what the First Commandment forbids.

SaintCody777 · Aug 26, 2018

Saint Steven said:
If you believe the Ten Commandments define sin, you have left yourself lots of wiggle room.

These sins are not covered under the TCs.
- Pride
- Greed
- Envy
- Wrath, Fits of Rage
- Lust
- Gluttony
- Sloth
- Dishonesty, Deception
- Impurity, Debauchery
- Witchcraft, Sorcery
- Hatred, Indifference
- Jealousy
- Showing Favoritism, Prejudice and Discrimination
- Selfish Ambition, Self-Centeredness
- Withholding Remedy to Human or Animal Needs
- Drunkenness, Drug Abuse
- Fornication, Sodomy, Bestiality
- Discord, Dissensions, Factions
- Unbelief, Disbelief, Agnosticism, Atheism
- Etc.

The definition of sin is not limited to the Ten Commandments.
The definition of sin is not limited to the Books of the Law.
The definition of sin is not limited to the Old Testament.
The definition of sin is not even limited to the entire Bible.

Okay, back to your wiggling.

Unbelief, agnosticism, and atheism do fall the first commandment. Because atheists and agnostics put their total trust in visible logic instead of God, which is idolatry. And obviously unbelief is idolatry.
Witchcraft and socery also violate the first commandment because you are obviously placing your trust in magic.

RDKirk · Aug 26, 2018

Dave L said:
I believe hatred is at the root of all sin. Just as love is at the root of all righteousness. So anything that places a person above equality with others is sin. On the high end, luxury places us above the needs of others. On the low end, cannibalism is probably the fullest expression of hatred.

A desire to make one's own judgments about the right and wrong of one's own actions is what is the root of all sin.

Saint Steven · Aug 26, 2018

1213 said:
I think they are. Person who obeys Ten Commandments, can’t do those things.

Who were the Ten Commandments given to?

Saint Steven · Aug 26, 2018

2Timothy2:15 said:
No we are under the new convenient, those who are in Jesus. However, the inward working of the Holy Spirit brings the Ten Commandments to a much deeper conviction within our hearts. Have you not experienced this? It is like Jesus when he said if you hate your brother you have committed murder in your heart and therefore are guilty of it. It is deeper, the Holy Spirit then works on our heart to show we are wretched and bring this hate to the forefront in our minds and heart so he can then correct it.

So you agree that hatred was not addressed in the Ten Commandments.

Saint Steven · Aug 26, 2018

2Timothy2:15 said:
Back that fail up with some doctrine and scripture then please.

I can't prove what isn't there. Or account for your sloppy work.

Saint Steven · Aug 26, 2018

Hazelelponi said:
When you have pride, you put yourself above everything else and thus worship self. In doing so, you are having other gods before God...

If you are given a commandment thou shalt not steal, but decide you'll break into someone's house in the night to take some goods they refused to let you borrow, deciding to yourself you'll just give those goods back someday, have you followed the commandment to not steal?

Pride raises the self up to God status to be worshipped, and is thus against the commandments. It's simple.

Envy means you see something your envious of; things, money, status, looks, whatever, you cant have envy without some thing your envious of, and hence its covered under thou shalt not covet.

your right it was my bad to bring up love, love of God is what is mentioned in the 10 but it still doesn't eliminate wrath - especially if we knew the cause of wrath.

The 10 commandments wasn't the problem in the end, the problem was legalism. Like you, the difficulty showed up when people began saying 'well I can do this or that because it's not specifically listed,' regardless of whether or not it would be a violation...

The point of this topic is that sin is bigger than the Ten Commandments. You seem to agree, unless I am misunderstanding you.

Saint Steven · Aug 26, 2018

MartyF said:
Compare your questions with those of the Pharisees.

Is it alright for a man to divorce his wife?

Is paying taxes to Caesar a sin?

Aren't you not suppose to work on the Sabbath?

The Pharisees were concerned with following rules. If anything, they wanted a leader who would come up with more rules. Jesus's reply near his end pointed out that there were more important aspects of law, including justice, mercy, and faith.

Many people misinterpret the major crime of David as being lust. But any full reading of the Bible shows that the real crimes were David's injustice, cruelty, and unfaithfulness to God. Nathan's original rebuke in 2 Samuel 12:1-4 mentions nothing about sex. In fact, continuing in 2 Samuel 12:8 God says he would have actually enabled David to have sex with more women. Continuing in 2 Samuel 12:9-10, God reiterates his hatred of injustice, cruelty, and unfaithfulness to God. Yes, David also committed adultery, but that was a minor offense in comparison.

Does making more laws make society better? Do more rules = a better society? More laws won't make better Christians.

The Mormon's think more laws are better. They love to say that their religion is the one to recognize the evils of caffeine. Muslim's tout their refraining from alcohol and five-times-a-day prayer. The add-on religions all like to add laws.

Is VR-porn wrong? I would say that it probably falls under the "sexual immorality" clause but there is a more important aspect to this. The VR-porn is more likely a symptom of a bigger problem. Do you actually care and want to help the person? Or are you just throwing on an additional burden without lifting a finger to help?

Marty

So, on that basis you call me a Pharisee and a Mormon?

RDKirk · Aug 26, 2018

Dave L said:
Which commandments? The Two you keep in love for God and others? Or the Ten, now abolished, the wicked kept after being threatened with death?

To be more accurate: The Mosaic Covenant is now obsolete.

That doesn't mean that the moral requirements of the Mosaic Covenant are not included in the Messianic Covenant.

In fact, the Messianic Covenant requires a much higher level of moral performance than the Mosaic Covenant.

Saint Steven · Aug 26, 2018

royal priest said:
The 10C summarized addresses the root of your list: failure to love God and neighbor.
In fact, the 10C are so broad that perfect conformity to them will mean that you have loved perfectly (God with all your heart, all your mind, and all your strength.)

That commandment is outside the Ten. Jesus quoted it as one of the greatest two, both outside the Ten.

Deuteronomy 6:5
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

Saint Steven · Aug 26, 2018

Ed1wolf said:
Actually many of these that you list ARE covered by the Ten Commandments indirectly. Like atheism and disbelief are covered by the first commandment and greed is a form of coveting so it is covered by that one. What sin is not covered in the entire bible or By the basic general moral principles in the bible? For example there are specific sins to our generation that were unknown in biblical times, such as watching TV all day, but that is covered by general principles such as he who does not work does not eat and the first commandment.

Yes, indirectly, that is the point. Many sins are not directly covered by the Ten. So, using that as a basis to define sin is flawed.

Do the Ten Commandments define sin? (nope)

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