Do the Ten Commandments define sin? (nope)

[MartyF]

Why would you say such a thing?

The definition of sin is not even limited to the entire Bible.

 

[Saint Steven]

Actually the 10 Commandments is the entire Law summarized. And the 10 Commandments summarized is "love God with all your heart and soul and strength and love your neighbour as yourself" as per Jesus's teaching.

Jews have known in the past and still know today that the 10 commandments are the entire Law. This is part of the spiritual signifigance of Moses recieving the Law on tablets from God's own hands - the 10 commandments.

When one loves God with all of himself and loves his neighbour as himself, he does the entire Law... degressing from the original topic but I felt like adding that.

Clever, but inaccurate. Where does the Bible say that the Ten are a summary of the whole law? The title Ten Commandments does not even appear in the NT. It's that important. And when Jesus was asked to name the greatest commandment, he chose two outside the Ten.

 

[Saint Steven]

.

 

[Soyeong]

Joh 8:57 The Jews, therefore, said unto him, `Thou art not yet fifty years old, and Abraham hast thou seen?'
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham's coming--I am;'

Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Gal_3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Obviously the covenant that God made with Abraham was not the law/covenant that was given at Mt Sinai.

The existence of sin requires there to be a standard of what is and is not sin, and that standard is God's Law. Sin was in the world before the Law was given (Romans 5:13), so the things that are sin are specific to God, not to a particular covenant. If it can be demonstrated that some of the Mosaic laws were given prior to Sinai, then your understanding is incorrect, and there is much evidence of this.

For example, it was sinful to commit murder back in Genesis 4:7 and Joseph new that it was sinful to commit adultery in Genesis 39:9. In Genesis 7:2, Noah had been given instructions for what to do with clean and unclean animals without being told how to tell the difference and in 8:20, he knew to offer a clean animal, so he had been given instructions in that regard.

The Gospel that Jesus preached was to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17, 23) and God's Law is how his audience knew what sin is, so this Gospel being preached to Abraham would mean that he was taught to obey God's Law.

God is God, so the whole world is under God's Law and obligated to obey it, otherwise God would not have been just to judge the world with the Flood for their sins or to judge the world in Revelation. Likewise, in 2 Peter 2:6-8, Sodom and Gomorrah were judged because of their Lawless deeds, so they were obligated to obey God's Law even though they weren't even in a covenant relationship with Him.

 

[Saint Steven]

.

 

[Saint Steven]

Apparently Marty F is blocking me. Unable to quote his posts.

 

[MartyF]

Apparently Marty F is blocking me. Unable to quote his posts.

nope not blocking you.

Quoting quotes can be difficult in this program.

Plus, you can still quote people who block you.

 

[Soyeong]

Notice the Ten Commandments hang from the Two Great Commandments. They are not the same. Paul says the Ten are for wicked unbelievers God controlled under threat of death.

“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” (1 Timothy 1:9–10)

But, if you have the Two Great Commandments in your heart, you will automatically keep the Ten. Because if you love God and people, you won't steal, or murder, or do anything the Ten forbade.

All of the 613 commands in the OT and 1,050 commands of the NT can be put into one or both of the categories as being instructions for how to love God or for how to love our neighbor, so the other commandments hand on the greatest two because they are examples of what it looks like to correctly obey them. For example, when we help the poor we are also correctly obeying the command to love our neighbor, so the command to love does not replace the other commands, but rather it is the essence of them. It would say we just need to obey God's command to love so we can disregard all of His instructions for how He wants us to love.

Jesus fulfilled the Ten Commandments by fulfilling the Two Great Commandments in his life and on the cross. The Two remain, the Ten are forever gone as a covenant.

You are still inconsistently translating "fulfill the Law of Christ". Love fulfill the Law because that it essentially what it is about how to do. "To fulfill the Law" means "to cause God's will (as made known in the Law) to be obeyed as it should be" (NAS Greek Lexicon pleroo 2c3), not to abolish it.

 

[CodyFaith]

Clever, but inaccurate. Where does the Bible say that the Ten are a summary of the whole law? The title Ten Commandments does not even appear in the NT. It's that important. And when Jesus was asked to name the greatest commandment, he chose two outside the Ten.

2Corinthians 3:6-7
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

Here Paul was talking about the Law. He said the Law, "which was engraved on stones". Notice Paul did not differentiate between the 10 commandments which were written on stone and the entire Law, but knew them to be one and the same, just as Jews do today and (some) Christians do today.

This is one of numerous examples. I honestly don't believe you will accept this teaching, as you seem to be dead set on something and will not be convinced regardless, so I will not reply any longer, I just enjoy talking about the Law and hope someone will be edified by what I wrote.

 

[Saint Steven]

nope not blocking you.

Quoting quotes can be difficult in this program.

Plus, you can still quote people who block you.

In reference to your "question" about my statement,
"The definition of sin is not even limited to the entire Bible."

Would it be a sin to have sexual relations with a demon?
Where does the Bible specifically prohibit such?

Or, to put a modern twist on it...
What about sex in a VR environment? (virtual reality)

 

[Ken Rank]

There were laws against murder, robbery, false witness, assault and adultery written c. 2100 BC in Mesopotamia. The ancient Mesopotamians wrote their records on clay tablets. Some of the clay tablets were fired in kilns. This was long before the Bible was written. 2100 BC happened before the time fundamentalist scholars assigned to Abraham based on Biblical texts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Ur-Nammu

The ancient Egyptians had a code of ethics with some of the ten commandments written on papyrus copies of the Book of the Dead before the Bible was written. Some of these papyri were preserved in desert tombs carved out of rock.

Thanks for the history lesson.

 

[Soyeong]

“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” (1 Timothy 1:9–10)

To use an analogy, speed limits are not needed for those who would otherwise drive and safe speeds, but for those who would otherwise drive at unsafe speeds. Instructions for how to do what is righteous are not needed for those who are already doing what is righteous, but for those who are not. Those who try to use this verse to free themselves from God's guidance thereby show themselves to be someone who the Law was given for.

 

[MartyF]

Would it be a sin to have sexual relations with a demon?

The bible says not to engage in sexual immorality.

 

[Hank77]

But, if you have the Two Great Commandments in your heart, you will automatically keep the Ten. Because if you love God and people, you won't steal, or murder, or do anything the Ten forbade.

I agree with you on most things but not here completely. I don't believe a Christian must worship on the 7th day Shabbot.

 

[Ken Rank]

No, you know that isn't what he said.

My view is not a Dispensational view, it's a Covenant view. The OT has been made obsolete, old, faded away. Covenant theology says...

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

I don't agree with that for a number of reasons Hank. First of all, the Hebrew word for "new" in Jeremiah 31:31 is chasashah, which is the verb chadash which means "to renew" being used as an adjective to describe the covenant. So, it is say, "I will renew the covenant I made with the House of Judah and the House of Israel." When that is repeated in Hebrews 8, we find that the word for new in Greek is kainos. And when you study it, you'll find out that nehos (which is also translated as new) means "new in regards to AGE." Kainos means "new in regards to freshness, i.e. to renew." So the covenant in Hebrew and Greek is renewed, not new.

What is new is that the law is being written on the heart rather than on stone... so the STONE is what vanishes and the writing on the heart is what is being made new. Ezekiel tells us of this (11:19) when he says the stony heart is being replaced with a heart of flesh. Even in Deut. 30, we find God having given the written, telling them they will screw it up and get punished by being cast into the nations... only to be called back and then their hearts will be circumcised.

The Schoolmaster was the law on stone, it led us to Christ through whom the same (law) is taken from the stone and to the heart directly. But the terms, the words, are the same. They are SUMMED UP in love God and neighbor... but that is the summation, not the entirety.

If you don't agree... no problem. But don't think you can change my mind in a CF post... I can write 400 pages on this topic and haven't scratched the surface as to why I believe this. I just shared a very small bit. Be blessed.

 

[Saint Steven]

2Corinthians 3:6-7
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

Here Paul was talking about the Law. He said the Law, "which was engraved on stones". Notice Paul did not differentiate between the 10 commandments which were written on stone and the entire Law, but knew them to be one and the same, just as Jews do today and (some) Christians do today.

This is one of numerous examples. I honestly don't believe you will accept this teaching, as you seem to be dead set on something and will not be convinced regardless, so I will not reply any longer, I just enjoy talking about the Law and hope someone will be edified by what I wrote.

What part of the law "was engraved on stones"? That would be the Ten Commandments, right?

You get the award for finding the Ten Commandments in the NT. But what does it say about them? The transitory ministry that brought death. It is being contrasted to the new covenant of the Spirit.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

These sins ARE covered under the TCs.
- Pride - You shall have no other gods before Me. You shall not covet.
- Greed You shall have no other gods before Me. You shall not covet. You shall not steal.
- Envy - You shall have no other gods before Me. You shall not covet.
- Wrath, Fits of Rage - You shall not commit adultery
- Lust- You shall not commit adultery
- Gluttony - You shall not covet.
- Sloth You shall not steal. Honor your father and your mother
- Dishonesty, Deception- You shall not covet.
- Impurity, Debauchery- You shall not covet. You shall not commit adultery.
- Witchcraft, Sorcery - You shall have no other gods before Me.
- Hatred, Indifference -You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
- Jealousy - You shall not covet. -You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
- Showing Favoritism, Prejudice and Discrimination- You shall not covet.
- Selfish Ambition, Self-Centeredness - You shall have no other gods before Me.
- Withholding Remedy to Human or Animal Needs - You shall not murder
- Drunkenness, Drug Abuse - You shall have no other gods before Me. - You shall not commit adultery
- Fornication, Sodomy, inappropriate behavior with animals - You shall not commit adultery
- Discord, Dissensions, Factions - You shall not murder
- Unbelief, Disbelief, Agnosticism, Atheism - You shall have no other gods before Me.
- Etc.

 

[Ken Rank]

I have no problem with your disagreement. When I was writing that very sentence I thought this probably should be changed to the 10 commandments, but I didn't. I think you would agree that the 'law' of God was always written on the hearts of all men.

ROM 2:14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

But as you say, when that which is written on one's heart conflicts with what their sinful natured flesh wants to do....man will always justify his sin...and commit it.

When He gave the law to Israel, He commended them that they keep it on their hearts. Unable to do this on their own, at least all the time, it is now God who does that work for us. It isn't complete, it will be when Messiah comes... in fact, the giving of the Spirit if a down-payment toward that time (see 2 Cor. 1:22 and 5:5). But the process has begun, for sure.

As for your thoughts about the gentiles... I do believe the essentials are within us all, the ability to seek righteousness or unrighteousness. And that is what Paul is sharing, I think... that even the gentiles have this ability to discern.

Blessings.
Ken

 

[Dave L]

I agree with you on most things but not here completely. I don't believe a Christian must worship on the 7th day Shabbot.

You are right. Poor wording on my part.

 

[Hank77]

The existence of sin requires there to be a standard of what is and is not sin, and that standard is God's Law. Sin was in the world before the Law was given (Romans 5:13), so the things that are sin are specific to God, not to a particular covenant. If it can be demonstrated that some of the Mosaic laws were given prior to Sinai, then your understanding is incorrect, and there is much evidence of this.

Maybe you can recognize that I am speaking of Covenants, not individual laws.