Do the Ten Commandments define sin? (nope)

[Saint Steven]

doesn't have to as they can be categorized under one or more of the 10 commandments.

for example: pride, greed, envy, jealousy, and lust would fall under the 10th commandment of covetousness.​

That's a stretch.

 

[Saint Steven]

You did in the OP when you listed the sins allegedly not covered by the Ten Commandments. You specifically listed hatred and lust, when Matthew expressly tells us that they are covered by the Sixth and Seven commandments, respectively.

You also listed pride when 1 Samuel 15:23 tells us that pride like idolatry, which of course is what the First Commandment forbids.

Matthew and 1 Sam are both outside the Ten. You are connecting dots to make your point.

 

[Saint Steven]

Unbelief, agnosticism, and atheism do fall the first commandment. Because atheists and agnostics put their total trust in visible logic instead of God, which is idolatry. And obviously unbelief is idolatry.
Witchcraft and socery also violate the first commandment because you are obviously placing your trust in magic.

Thanks. The point is that the Ten are incomplete as the definition of sin.

But the bigger question is to whom were the TCs given?

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Matthew and 1 Sam are both outside the Ten. You are connecting dots to make your point

They contain commentary on the Ten. They explain what the Ten mean, that is to say, more than they appear to at first glance.

You call it connecting dots. I call it using Scripture to interpret Scripture.

 

[Saint Steven]

Sin is any disobedience to God's commands, not just ten of them. In any case, in Romans 3:20, the Law was given to reveal what sin is and in Romans 7:7, Paul wouldn't have known what sin is if it weren't for the Law, such as with the command not to covet, so even if he had been speaking only about the Ten Commandments, they played a role in how the Israelites knew what sin is, so 1 John 3:4 would have at the very least been inclusive of them.

We agree then that the Ten Commandments are not the sole basis to define sin.

 

[Lee Bee]

The Ten Commandments do define sin...

Explicitly covered by the Ten Commandments:
Pride
Greed
Gluttony
Sloth
Envy
Hatred
Witchcraft, Sorcery
Fornication
Discord, Dissensions, Factions
Wrath, Fits of Rage
Showing Favoritism, Prejudice and Discrimination
Selfish Ambition, Self-Centeredness
Atheism

Not sins:
Lust (beware of 1 Tim 4 teachers who teach that "sex is evil")
Jealousy (the 10 Commandments make clear that jealousy is one of the most important values to a Christian)
Dishonesty, Deception (these are the outworking of sin, not a sin in themselves)
Unbelief, Disbelief, Agnosticism, Indifference (lack of any belief is not a sin)
Withholding Remedy to Human or Animal Needs (not a sin in itself)

This leaves:
Impurity
Debauchery
Sodomy
Bestiality
Drunkenness
Drug Abuse

These are all symptoms of a rebellion against God and are broadly covered by the First Commandment.

For a spiritual man, the Ten Commandments affirm the spiritual truth within our hearts - they confirm what we know to be true and right, covering a broad range of sins, toward God and man. They are set apart in the Torah because they represent a summary of the whole Torah. And they are in order of importance.

Likewise, the Lord Jesus summarized the whole Torah and all 10 Commandments:

Luke 10:27
"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself."

Now I'd like to mention the issue of...

Must Christians keep the 10 Commandments?
Absolutely not! Christians are not under the Torah - that was the Old Covenant which has been superseded. (Besides which, the Torah contains hundreds of laws, not just ten.) If you put yourself back under the Torah, then:

Galatians 5:4
"You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace."

The Lord Jesus said the Torah is good, and it is good to observe it. Paul said the same. It is obvious and evident that everything the Lord commands is good, and leads to blessing.

But Jesus never said we must keep the Torah. That is legalism.

He said we are to keep HIS commandments under the New Covenant. The New Covenant is nothing at all like a Law or a set of regulations: it is a radical process of inner change, based upon faithfulness and obedience to Jesus Christ, and being spiritually transformed. This can only happen through complete and total submission to Jesus Christ and His commands, putting Him before all else, and striving to follow Him.

By the way, this is my first post here. I signed up to make this comment but not sure I will be staying as I quickly discovered that, as well as being highly commercial, this site has some very ungodly principles which I would not want to support.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

That's a stretch.

pride, i'll admit is more 1st commandment in putting yourself before God.

the others do, in fact, deal with bitterness and misguided desires for what other people possess in you not having them and not being satisfied with what you have.

 

[Saint Steven]

No we are under the new convenient, those who are in Jesus. However, the inward working of the Holy Spirit brings the Ten Commandments to a much deeper conviction within our hearts. Have you not experienced this? It is like Jesus when he said if you hate your brother you have committed murder in your heart and therefore are guilty of it. It is deeper, the Holy Spirit then works on our heart to show we are wretched and bring this hate to the forefront in our minds and heart so he can then correct it.

Jesus was not promoting the TCs, he was setting the law aside. He treated the law as hearsay. "You have heard that it was said... but I tell you..." He was replacing the law.

 

[Saint Steven]

The Ten Commandments do define sin...

Explicitly covered by the Ten Commandments:
Pride
Greed
Gluttony
Sloth
Envy
Hatred
Witchcraft, Sorcery
Fornication
Discord, Dissensions, Factions
Wrath, Fits of Rage
Showing Favoritism, Prejudice and Discrimination
Selfish Ambition, Self-Centeredness
Atheism

Not sins:
Lust (beware of 1 Tim 4 teachers who teach that "sex is evil")
Jealousy (the 10 Commandments make clear that jealousy is one of the most important values to a Christian)
Dishonesty, Deception (these are the outworking of sin, not a sin in themselves)
Unbelief, Disbelief, Agnosticism, Indifference (lack of any belief is not a sin)
Withholding Remedy to Human or Animal Needs (not a sin in itself)

This leaves:
Impurity
Debauchery
Sodomy
Bestiality
Drunkenness
Drug Abuse

These are all symptoms of a rebellion against God and are broadly covered by the First Commandment.

For a spiritual man, the Ten Commandments affirm the spiritual truth within our hearts - they confirm what we know to be true and right, covering a broad range of sins, toward God and man. They are set apart in the Torah because they represent a summary of the whole Torah. And they are in order of importance.

Likewise, the Lord Jesus summarized the whole Torah and all 10 Commandments:

Luke 10:27
"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself."

Now I'd like to mention the issue of...

Must Christians keep the 10 Commandments?
Absolutely not! Christians are not under the Torah - that was the Old Covenant which has been superseded. (Besides which, the Torah contains hundreds of laws, not just ten.) If you put yourself back under the Torah, then:

Galatians 5:4
"You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace."

The Lord Jesus said the Torah is good, and it is good to observe it. Paul said the same. It is obvious and evident that everything the Lord commands is good, and leads to blessing.

But Jesus never said we must keep the Torah. That is legalism.

He said we are to keep HIS commandments under the New Covenant. The New Covenant is nothing at all like a Law or a set of regulations: it is a radical process of inner change, based upon faithfulness and obedience to Jesus Christ, and being spiritually transformed. This can only happen through complete and total submission to Jesus Christ and His commands, putting Him before all else, and striving to follow Him.

By the way, this is my first post here. I signed up to make this comment but not sure I will be staying as I quickly discovered that, as well as being highly commercial, this site has some very ungodly principles which I would not want to support.

Wow. First post. Welcome to the forum. You went for the "deep end" right away. Controversial Theology.

Obviously the TCs didn't stand on their own. You had to do a lot explaining to get your point across. And I disagree with your first set that you claim are explicitly covered in the TCs. Other than that, interesting post. I appreciate the thought that went into it.

 

[Soyeong]

We agree then that the Ten Commandments are not the sole basis to define sin.

The Bible does not exhaustively instruct every action that is righteous, but it does instruct how to act in accordance with God's righteousness, which allows us to understand the deeper spiritual principle of God's righteousness, by which can use to determine whether or not other actions that are not specifically instructed are righteous. So every action that is righteous is in accordance with the principles taught by the Law even if it is not specifically instructed, and the same goes for acting in accordance with God's other character traits and with refraining from sin.

 

[Soyeong]

Thanks. The point is that the Ten are incomplete as the definition of sin.

But the bigger question is to whom were the TCs given?

The Ten Commandments are part of God's instructions for how to walk in His ways, not His instructions for how to live as a Jew, the the issue of whom they were given by is much more important than whom they were given to.

 

[Soyeong]

Jesus was not promoting the TCs, he was setting the law aside. He treated the law as hearsay. "You have heard that it was said... but I tell you..." He was replacing the law.

Everything that Jesus said after "but I say to you..." was in accordance with what the Mosaic Law instructs, so he couldn't have been replacing it. Whenever Jesus quoted Scripture, he proceeded it by saying "it is written", but when he was quoting from what the people of his day had heard being taught about Scripture, he proceeded it by saying "you have heard that it was said..." so the emphasis on the different form of communication is important. Jesus was not sinning in violation Deuteronomy 4:2 by subtracting or adding his own commands, but rather he was fulfilling the Law by correcting what was wrongly being taught about it and by teaching how to understand and obey it. For example:

Matthew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.

While the Law certainly instructs us to love our neighbor (Leviticus 19:18), it does not instruct us to hate our enemy, so that is what he was correcting.

 

[dreadnought]

If you believe the Ten Commandments define sin, you have left yourself lots of wiggle room.

These sins are not covered under the TCs.
- Pride
- Greed
- Envy
- Wrath, Fits of Rage
- Lust
- Gluttony
- Sloth
- Dishonesty, Deception
- Impurity, Debauchery
- Witchcraft, Sorcery
- Hatred, Indifference
- Jealousy
- Showing Favoritism, Prejudice and Discrimination
- Selfish Ambition, Self-Centeredness
- Withholding Remedy to Human or Animal Needs
- Drunkenness, Drug Abuse
- Fornication, Sodomy, Bestiality
- Discord, Dissensions, Factions
- Unbelief, Disbelief, Agnosticism, Atheism
- Etc.

The definition of sin is not limited to the Ten Commandments.
The definition of sin is not limited to the Books of the Law.
The definition of sin is not limited to the Old Testament.
The definition of sin is not even limited to the entire Bible.

Okay, back to your wiggling.

It doesn't seem to me the Ten Commandments completely address the great and first commandment, that we love the Lord with all our hearts, minds, and souls. Also, they don't really define "adultery," which I believe is any act of sexual immorality. Still, the Ten Commandments do seem to me to go a long ways towards defining what it means to love our neighbors as ourselves.

 

[Saint Steven]

pride, i'll admit is more 1st commandment in putting yourself before God.

the others do, in fact, deal with bitterness and misguided desires for what other people possess in you not having them and not being satisfied with what you have.

So, are you confident in claiming that the TCs define sin? Is that what you are saying?

 

[Saint Steven]

The Bible does not exhaustively instruct every action that is righteous, but it does instruct how to act in accordance with God's righteousness, which allows us to understand the deeper spiritual principle of God's righteousness, by which can use to determine whether or not other actions that are not specifically instructed are righteous. So every action that is righteous is in accordance with the principles taught by the Law even if it is not specifically instructed, and the same goes for acting in accordance with God's other character traits and with refraining from sin.

That's good. Although it is based on gaining knowledge through teaching and study. How does this fit?

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

 

[Saint Steven]

The Ten Commandments are part of God's instructions for how to walk in His ways, not His instructions for how to live as a Jew, the the issue of whom they were given by is much more important than whom they were given to.

Do you know where your orange juice comes from?

Hopefully that seems like a strange question. But God has commanded that the fruit from the tree in the center of the garden is forbidden.

As you have stated, it is more important WHO the command is from than WHO it was given to. Right?

The TCs were given to the Israelites alone by God through Moses. It matters.

 

[Saint Steven]

Everything that Jesus said after "but I say to you..." was in accordance with what the Mosaic Law instructs, so he couldn't have been replacing it. Whenever Jesus quoted Scripture, he proceeded it by saying "it is written", but when he was quoting from what the people of his day had heard being taught about Scripture, he proceeded it by saying "you have heard that it was said..." so the emphasis on the different form of communication is important. Jesus was not sinning in violation Deuteronomy 4:2 by subtracting or adding his own commands, but rather he was fulfilling the Law by correcting what was wrongly being taught about it and by teaching how to understand and obey it. For example:

Matthew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.

While the Law certainly instructs us to love our neighbor (Leviticus 19:18), it does not instruct us to hate our enemy, so that is what he was correcting.

No, no, no... That's ridiculous. The word "but" is a hinge word. The sentence direction turns on that word.

"You have heard that it was said... but I tell you..." means that there is new information from Christ to replace words of the law. It was NOT in accordance with Mosaic law, it was the opposite. If I have that wrong, please explain yourself. Thanks.

 

[Saint Steven]

It doesn't seem to me the Ten Commandments completely address the great and first commandment, that we love the Lord with all our hearts, minds, and souls. Also, they don't really define "adultery," which I believe is any act of sexual immorality. Still, the Ten Commandments do seem to me to go a long ways towards defining what it means to love our neighbors as ourselves.

Right. The point is that those who claim that the TCs define sin are using a very incomplete model. I listed many important things that just are not there.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

So, are you confident in claiming that the TCs define sin? Is that what you are saying?

i'd say it's pretty darn comprehensive even if you could possibly think of one sin that wouldn't fit under any of the 10. what do you think that sin would be?

 

[Hank77]

But hatred does not equal selfishness, in every instance. A person can be selfish without any hate for the other person. Guess we see things a little differently.

If you are selfish are you loving others as you love yourself?