Do the Ten Commandments define sin? (nope)

[Saint Steven]

Using it totally by itself as a basis for defining sin is flawed but you said you cannot define sin using the whole Bible. This is where you are wrong. Without the bible there would be many serious sins we would probably not know about. If you use the other moral laws in the OT and the moral teachings of Christ, you pretty much have all sin covered. But as I said some are general principles that have to be extrapolated, such as my TV example.

It can't be absolute if you describe it as "pretty much", right? (see bold emphasis above)

But to be honest, I'm having trouble naming a sin that is outside the Bible. And even if I did, how could I confirm it is sin without the Bible as the deciding authority? I was thinking of things that are a part of modern life that would not be covered specifically.

But, you seem to agree with the main point of the OP. Unless I am misunderstanding you. I am addressing those who claim that the Ten Commandments define sin. They use this verse below to make the point. They claim that "the law' is the Ten Commandments. Not true. Or only partially true.

1 John 3:4 KJV
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I am addressing those who claim that the Ten Commandments define sin. They use this verse below to make the point. They claim that "the law' is the Ten Commandments. Not true. Or only partially true.

1 John 3:4 KJV
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Not really Steve, you may need to read your bible a bit more. Your teaching that God's 10 Commandments are abolished is a false teaching. God's WORD does not teach lawlessness.

Let's look at the scriptures...

WHAT IS SIN

JAMES 2:8-12
[8], If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well:
[9], But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
[10], For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
[11] For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF GOD'S LAW

Yep, James is pretty clear if we brake ANY of God's Law (10 commandments) then we are a TRANSGRESSOR of God's LAW and commit SIN. James quotes two of the 10 Commandments that are summed up in the 2nd great commandments of LOVE to our neighbor in v11

links to...........

1 JOHN 3:4 [4] Whosoever commits SIN transgresses also the law: for SIN is the transgression of the law.

John is saying the same thing as James and states that if we TRANSGRESS God's LAW then we commit SIN because SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF GOD'S LAW. So it is very clear that SIN is breaking ANY of God's LAW (10 commandments). We will look at the chapter context shortly which give the example in v15 of MURDER God's 6th Command of the 10.

Links to...........

ROMANS 7:7 [7], What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known SIN, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Well here we have Paul in agreement with James and John also telling us that SIN is breaking God's commandments and uses the 10th commandment as an example of breaking any of God's LAW (10 commandments) = SIN (Exodus 20:17)

Links to...

ROMANS 3:20 [20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

Context is v9; both Jew and Greek ALL under SIN, v10 None are righteous no not one, v11 None seek after God, v12 All have gone out of the way, there is none that does good [χρηστότης means MORAL excellence]. v13-18 Peace they have not known, destruction is in their way; they do not fear God. Now the CONTEXT is there is none that do GOOD which is in reference to χρηστότης MORAL excellence. Now let's look at v19-20

ROMANS 3:19-21
[19] Now we know that whatsoever things the law says, it says to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Context is no one does good χρηστότης MORAL excellence. God's LAW (10 Commandments) are the standard of RIGHTEOUSNESS.

PSALMS 119:172 [172], My tongue shall speak of your word: for all your commandments are righteousness [צדק; tsedeq means; the right natural, moral or legal; also (abstractly) equity or (figuratively) prosperity: - X even, (X that which is altogether) just (-ice), ([un-]) right (-eous) (cause, -ly, -ness)].

RIGHTEOUSNESS צדק; tsedeq in God's LAW is the standard of χρηστότης; MORAL excellence

The CONTEXT then is doing GOOD in reference to God's LAW (10 Commandments) v19 that is defines SIN and makes all the world guilty before GOD.

[20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

No one is justified by God's LAW which is the standard of RIGHTEOUSNESS [Moral excellence and Good] because if broken it gives us a KNOWLEDGE of sin. Already defined in James as breaking any of God's 10 Commandments.

[21], But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

God's LAW is the standard of RIGHTOEUSNESS (Psalms 119:172) MORAL EXCELLENCE standard of what is GOOD. The RIGHTOUENESS of GOD outside of the LAW being witnessed by the LAW and the prophets v22 which is by FAITH in Christ; WHY? v23 because ALL HAVE SINNED broken God's LAW. v24-28 we are only made righteous by faith in Christ without the deeds of the law. v31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

.....................

CONCLUSION: PAUL, JAMES and JOHN all agree together that if we break any of God's LAW (10 commandments) we commit SIN. All three use example of breaking the 10 Commandments as what defines sin.

.....................

God's WORD defines SIN as transgression of God's LAW (10 commandments) or breaking God's 10 Commandments as well as UNBELIEF in God's WORD.

Now that we have a biblical definition of what sin is (breaking God's Commandments) and UNBELIEF, let's look at the CHAPTER CONTEXT of 1 JOHN 3:4 and connect the scriptures.

1 JOHN 3:3-15
[3], And every man that hath this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure.
4, Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF GOD'S LAW.
[5], And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
[6], Whosoever abides in him SIN <breaks God's LAW> not: whosoever SIN<breaks God's LAW> hath not seen him, neither known him.
[7], Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous <Psalms 119:172 All your commandments = RIGHTEOUSNESS>.
[8], He that commits SIN <breaks God's LAW> is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
[9], Whosoever is born of God DOES NOT commit SIN<breaks God's LAW>; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot SIN<breaks God's LAW>, because he is born of God.
[10], In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.
[11], For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
[12], Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
[13], Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
[14], We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loves not his brother abides in death.
[15], Whosoever hates his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no MURDERER hath eternal life abiding in him.

Some key points..........

v4. SIN = Breaking God's Commandments
v6. Those who knowingly break God's commandments do not know God
v7. Don't be DECEIVED only those who DO NOT break God's commandments are is RIGHTEOUS as HE IS RIGHTEOUS
v8. If you are living in a life of KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN you are following the DEVIL and not GOD (Acts 17:30-31; Heb 10:26:27)
v9. If you are BORN OF GOD you will NOT practice SIN
v10. LOVE AND OBEDIENCE to GOD'S LAW SHOW WHO ARE GOD'S PEOPLE and DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD'S LAW SHOW THE CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL
v15. Example of the 7th commandment (Exodus 20:13) being broken. Those who brake God's LAW and SIN DO NOT have ETERNAL LIFE

Links to what Jesus says in Matthew..............

Matthew 7
21, Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; BUT HE THE DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER IN HEAVEN <FAITH THAT WORKS BY Love and OBEDIENCE>
22, Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23, And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU <1 John 3:6 = has not seen him or known him because they break God's LAW and practice SIN>: DEPART FROM ME YOU WHO WORK INIQUITY (SIN)

................

CONCLUSION: The CHAPTER and SCRIPTURE CONTEXT is those who are OBEDIENT to GOD'S Commandments and those who are DISOBEDIENT to God's COMMANDMENTS mentioning MURDER in v15 which is the 6th Commandment of the 10 Commandments (Exodus 20:13). PAUL, JAMES and JOHN all agree together that SIN is breaking ANY of God's 10 Commandments.
................

SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4). Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN (Hebrews 19:26-27).

Your taking a pretty big gamble on your salvation teaching God's 10 Commandments that give us a knowledge of sin is Abolished.

Sorry Steve, God's WORD disagrees with you. The scriptures provided in this post are only sent in love as a help to you. I will pray for you

Hope this is helpful.

God's sheep hear his Voice (the Word of God)

 

[Saint Steven]

Not really Steve, you may need to read your bible a bit more. Your teaching that God's 10 Commandments are abolished is a false teaching. God's WORD does not teach lawlessness.
.....................

CONCLUSION: PAUL, JAMES and JOHN all agree together that if we break any of God's LAW (10 commandments) we commit SIN. All three use example of breaking the 10 Commandments as what defines sin.
..................…

You have no proof that God's law is limited to, or defined as, the Ten Commandments.

Furthermore, "the royal law" is not found in the Ten Commandments. It is found in Leviticus. (see below)

James 2:8
If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right.

Leviticus 19:18
“‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So then, what is the scope of "the whole law" referred to two verses later? In context, it has to refer to more than the Ten. How much more? Whole is defined as all. The whole enchilada. I hope you are wearing tassels. (Numbers 15:38-39, Matthew 23:5) It's "God's law", right? (If God commanded it, you should obey it, right?)

James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It has to be sin before it can be a transgression of the law. If I am not under that law, what am I transgressing? Who was the law given to?

1 John 3:4 KJV
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You quote Romans 7:7 but ignore the context.

Romans 7:6
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But you really shot yourself in the foot when you quoted this.

Romans 3:19-21
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[1213]

Do you keep the Sabbath? Which day?

Shabbat day is Saturday, and I don’t do my work then. But please notice, even if I don’t do work then, it doesn’t mean that therefore I deserve salvation, or that eternal life would come because of that. I want to do so, because I love God and understand His commandments are good.

 

[Saint Steven]

Shabbat day is Saturday, and I don’t do my work then. But please notice, even if I don’t do work then, it doesn’t mean that therefore I deserve salvation, or that eternal life would come because of that. I want to do so, because I love God and understand His commandments are good.

How do you measure the Sabbath day? (when does it begin and end?)
How do you measure work? (what is, and isn't work?)

 

[Soyeong]

No, I believe that for the most part it is the same law in those examples. I was planning to go point-by-point on that, but changed directions to deal with this. See below.

Circumcision was the law that separated Jews from gentiles. Which was Abrahamic, not Mosaic, as you know. In the context following the situation about Peter separating himself from the gentiles we find this statement by the Apostle Paul. See below.

In Acts 15:1, they were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved. If you can quote where God commanded this, then please explain why Gentiles shouldn't do as God commanded. However, if you can't quote where God commanded that, then please explain why a ruling against Gentiles obeying something that God never commanded should be understood as being a ruling against Gentiles obeying what God has commanded. God never commanded all Gentiles to become circumcised and the purpose that God commanded all Jews to become circumcised was not in order to become saved, and if God did not command it, then the Jerusalem Council was therefore upholding God's Law by rejecting a man-made requirement.

Likewise, the law that Peter mentioned in Acts 10:28 is not found anywhere in God's Law. When Peter stopped visiting or associating with the Gentiles he was giving credibility to the group that was wanting to require Gentiles to obey their works of the law in order to become saved, but which is why Paul rebuked him and reiterated that we are justified by faith, not by works of the law.

What was it that Paul destroyed?

Galatians 2:18-19
If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker.
19 “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In Galatians 2:17-19, if in our endeavor to be justified in Christ we are found to be transgressors of God's Law, then that does mean that Christ is minister of Lawlessness. If we rebuild the Lawlessness that we died to, then we prove ourselves to be transgressors of the Law. For through the Law of God we have died to the law of sin so that we might live for God.

It wouldn't make sense to interpret Paul as saying that we need to die to God's instructions for how to live for Him in order to be free to live for Him, but rather we need to die to a law that was hindering us from living for God and causing us not to do the good that we wanted to do, which is the law of sin. Christ is not a minister of Lawlessness, but rather he said he would tell those who are Lawless to depart from Him (Matthew 7:21-23).

Compare. What is said of Paul when he returns to Jerusalem.

Acts 21:21-24
They have been informed that you teach all the Jews
who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses,
telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs.
22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come,
23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow.
24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses,
so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth
in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But there was truth in the reports about Paul. He never denied it.

On the contrary, they were praising God that there were many tens of thousands of Jews who were coming to faith who were becoming zealous doing good works in obedience to the Law, so there was no truth to those reports.

Paul was a servant of God, so you should not interpret him as being an enemy of God by teaching against obeying what He has commanded. If in order to maintain your position you need to make the leadership of the Church out to people people who openly admitting to taking actions with the intention of deceiving others about the truth of what they taught, then you really ought to reconsider it. If you open that can of worms, then you can't know his position on anything because you can't establish that he wasn't deceiving you. In Romans 3:31, Paul said that our faith does not abolish our need to obey the Law, but rather our faith upholds it, so we need to take Paul at his word and interpret him as seeking to uphold the Law rather than seeking to abolish it.

There were false witnesses against Jesus, there were false witness that Stephen taught against the Law (Acts 6:13), and there were false rumors against Paul. In Acts 24:14, Paul testified that he worshiped the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets.

 

[Soyeong]

Sorry but I do not agree with your interpretation. There is a clear delineation between the Ten Commandments and the Mosaic or CeremonialLaw.

I agree that there is a clear distinction, but both were commanded by God either directly or indirectly through Moses, so they are all part of God's eternal Law and sin is disobedience to any of God's commands. So the distinction does not mean that it is immoral for us to disobey one set of laws and moral for us to disobey the other set.

 

[Saint Steven]

In Acts 15:1, they were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved. If you can quote where God commanded this, then please explain why Gentiles shouldn't do as God commanded. However, if you can't quote where God commanded that, then please explain why a ruling against Gentiles obeying something that God never commanded should be understood as being a ruling against Gentiles obeying what God has commanded. God never commanded all Gentiles to become circumcised and the purpose that God commanded all Jews to become circumcised was not in order to become saved, and if God did not command it, then the Jerusalem Council was therefore upholding God's Law by rejecting a man-made requirement. ...

You are missing the whole point about circumcision. It was what separated the Israelites from everyone else in the world. They were God's people, no one else was. They hated the uncircumcised gentiles.

Look at what David says of Goliath before he slays him.

1 Samuel 17:26
David asked the men standing near him, “... Who is this uncircumcised Philistine that he should defy the armies of the living God?”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Apostle Paul addresses the law as this "dividing wall of hostility" in this scripture.

Ephesians 2:13-16
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,
15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,
16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

 

[Soyeong]

You are missing the whole point about circumcision. It was what separated the Israelites from everyone else in the world. They were God's people, no one else was. They hated the uncircumcised gentiles.

Look at what David says of Goliath before he slays him.

1 Samuel 17:26
David asked the men standing near him, “... Who is this uncircumcised Philistine that he should defy the armies of the living God?”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

God wanted His people to be set apart from the nations, however, it was not so that they would hate the nations, but so that they would be a light to the nations by teaching them how to repent from their wicked ways and how to walk in God's ways (Isaiah 2:2-3, Isaiah 49:6, Deuteronomy 4:5-8). While God had a purpose for why He commanded all Jews to become circumcised, there was nothing that prevented people from trying to require circumcision for some other purpose, which could actually be contrary to the purposes of God, such as in Acts 15:1. In theory, circumcision could be used for any number of other purposes, however, speaking against use circumcision for purposes for which it was never intended should not be take as speaking against circumcision for the purpose that God commanded it.

The Apostle Paul addresses the law as this "dividing wall of hostility" in this scripture.

Ephesians 2:13-16
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,
15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,
16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

Again, Paul was a servant of God, not his enemy, so you should not be quick to jump to the conclusion from this vague description that Paul must have been speaking against obeying God. In 2 Peter 3:15-16, it says that Paul is difficult to understand, but that those who are ignorant and unstable twist his words to their own destruction and are carried away by the error of Lawless people, so even in his day there were people who misunderstood him as promoting Lawlessness, but we can be confident that he never did that.

In Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we have been made new creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works, so it would make no sense to interpret him a few verses later as saying that Christ did away with his eternal instructions for how to do good works, especially considering that he said in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 that all OT Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, training in righteousness, and equipping us to do every good work. In addition, God's Law instructs us to love our neighbor and the stranger as ourselves (Leviticus 19:18, 19:34), so it was not a dividing wall of hostility. In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized as being about how to love God and our neighbor, not about how to be hostile to our neighbor. However, what was serving as a dividing wall of hostility were man-made laws, such as the one that Peter mentioned in Acts 10:28 that forbade Jews to visit or associate with Gentiles.

 

[Saint Steven]

God wanted His people to be set apart from the nations, however, it was not so that they would hate the nations, but so that they would be a light to the nations by teaching them how to repent from their wicked ways and how to walk in God's ways (Isaiah 2:2-3, Isaiah 49:6, Deuteronomy 4:5-8). While God had a purpose for why He commanded all Jews to become circumcised, there was nothing that prevented people from trying to require circumcision for some other purpose, which could actually be contrary to the purposes of God, such as in Acts 15:1. In theory, circumcision could be used for any number of other purposes, however, speaking against use circumcision for purposes for which it was never intended should not be take as speaking against circumcision for the purpose that God commanded it. …

That's a fine sentiment, but what does the biblical evidence tell us? The Israelites hated the uncircumcised gentiles. The rite of circumcision had set them apart, even above every other people. They were after all, God's chosen people. And everyone else? Not.

 

[Saint Steven]

…
Again, Paul was a servant of God, not his enemy, so you should not be quick to jump to the conclusion from this vague description that Paul must have been speaking against obeying God. In 2 Peter 3:15-16, it says that Paul is difficult to understand, but that those who are ignorant and unstable twist his words to their own destruction and are carried away by the error of Lawless people, so even in his day there were people who misunderstood him as promoting Lawlessness, but we can be confident that he never did that. …

You don't like the conclusion. I understand that. But here it is in black and white.

The Apostle tells us that Christ set aside the law through his atoning sacrifice. Thus destroying the dividing wall of hostility that existed between the circumcised and the uncircumcised.

Ephesians 2:13-16
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,
15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,
16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

 

[Saint Steven]

…
In Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we have been made new creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works, so it would make no sense to interpret him a few verses later as saying that Christ did away with his eternal instructions for how to do good works, especially considering that he said in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 that all OT Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, training in righteousness, and equipping us to do every good work. In addition, God's Law instructs us to love our neighbor and the stranger as ourselves (Leviticus 19:18, 19:34), so it was not a dividing wall of hostility. In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized as being about how to love God and our neighbor, not about how to be hostile to our neighbor. However, what was serving as a dividing wall of hostility were man-made laws, such as the one that Peter mentioned in Acts 10:28 that forbade Jews to visit or associate with Gentiles.

Yes the works prepared in advance for us to do.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But what works are these? The works of the law? (nope)

John 6:28-29
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
​

Galatians 2:16
know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

Galatians 3:10
For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

 

[Soyeong]

Yes the works prepared in advance for us to do.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But what works are these? The works of the law? (nope)

Galatians 2:16​

know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

Galatians 3:10
For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

The good works are obedience to God's Law, not works of the law:

2 Timothy 3:15-17 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

At the time of Timothy's childhood the books of the NT hadn't yet been written or regarded as sacred writings, so these verses are primarily referring to the code of conduct found in OT Scripture, also known as the Mosaic Law, or at the very least are inclusive of it. The Mosaic Law is straightforwardly God's instructions to the Israelites for how to do good works.

Paul was a servant of God, so you should not interpret him as being an enemy of God by warning people against obeying Him. We must obey God rather than man, so if you nevertheless think that God has commanded something and that Paul spoke against obeying what God has commanded, then you should be quicker to disregard what he said than to disregard what God commanded.

John 6:28-29
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Take a scenario where a police officer pulled someone over, but when they approached their car the person pulled out a gun and pointed it at the officer's chest. If the officer reached for his weapon, then he would most likely take a bullet in the chest, however, he was wearing a bulletproof vest. Reaching for his gun is the difference between believing that a bulletproof vest can stop a bullet and believing in it to stop a bullet.

So while it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was counted as righteous, it is also true that Abraham believed God, so he didn't hesitate to offer Isaac, reasoning that God would raise him from the dead in order to keep His promise. So he didn't just believe that what God promised was true, but he believed in the promise, so took actions that demonstrated his confidence that the promise would come to fulfillment no matter what happened.

So I think you greatly underestimate the importance of what it means to believe in the one that God has sent. It's about believing in who he is, what he accomplished, and what that means for how we should therefore live our lives. If we believe in Jesus as Lord, then we should submit our actions to him as Lord. If we believe in that fact that he gave himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works (Titus 2:14), then that should cause us to become zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's instructions for how to do good works found in His Law (Acts 21:20) and to go and sin no more in accordance with God's instructions for how to refrain from sin found in His Law (1 John 3:4).

 

[Saint Steven]

The good works are obedience to God's Law, not works of the law:

2 Timothy 3:15-17 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

At the time of Timothy's childhood the books of the NT hadn't yet been written or regarded as sacred writings, so these verses are primarily referring to the code of conduct found in OT Scripture, also known as the Mosaic Law, or at the very least are inclusive of it. The Mosaic Law is straightforwardly God's instructions to the Israelites for how to do good works.

Paul was a servant of God, so you should not interpret him as being an enemy of God by warning people against obeying Him. We must obey God rather than man, so if you nevertheless think that God has commanded something and that Paul spoke against obeying what God has commanded, then you should be quicker to disregard what he said than to disregard what God commanded. …

You will need to explain the difference between "obedience to God's Law" and "the works of the law".

What do you suppose was the argument coming from the opponents of Paul? For what were they arguing? What did they have that they thought excluded them from what Paul was offering them?

Acts 17:2-3
As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,
3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said.

Acts 18:28
For he vigorously refuted his Jewish opponents in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Messiah.

 

[Saint Steven]

…
Take a scenario where a police officer pulled someone over, but when they approached their car the person pulled out a gun and pointed it at the officer's chest. If the officer reached for his weapon, then he would most likely take a bullet in the chest, however, he was wearing a bulletproof vest. Reaching for his gun is the difference between believing that a bulletproof vest can stop a bullet and believing in it to stop a bullet.

So while it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was counted as righteous, it is also true that Abraham believed God, so he didn't hesitate to offer Isaac, reasoning that God would raise him from the dead in order to keep His promise. So he didn't just believe that what God promised was true, but he believed in the promise, so took actions that demonstrated his confidence that the promise would come to fulfillment no matter what happened.

So I think you greatly underestimate the importance of what it means to believe in the one that God has sent. It's about believing in who he is, what he accomplished, and what that means for how we should therefore live our lives. If we believe in Jesus as Lord, then we should submit our actions to him as Lord. If we believe in that fact that he gave himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works (Titus 2:14), then that should cause us to become zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's instructions for how to do good works found in His Law (Acts 21:20) and to go and sin no more in accordance with God's instructions for how to refrain from sin found in His Law (1 John 3:4).

I want to take a moment to compliment you on your well thought out position on these things. This subject can be very emotional, but you have kept a level-headed approach. Most debaters on this subject would have been furious with me by now. You come back calm and strong every time. Kudos. --- Oh course, that doesn't mean that I agree with you, just that you have been a worthy opponent. Thanks.

I want you to join our team. But I have my work cut out to win you over. lol ------

If all this was about us keeping the law, why did it play out the way it did? What is the point of the atoning work of Christ if what God really wants is obedience to the law?

I see a contrast between the law and grace. They are at odds.

The Apostle says that if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing! That those who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; they have fallen away from grace. These are some serious issues.

There was a fork in the road to God. The law was given through Moses. But grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. Which way will you go? These are two different paths.

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Galatians 2:21
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

Galatians 5:4
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You have no proof that God's law is limited to, or defined as, the Ten Commandments.

Now Steve you know that statement has no truth in it at all. Your simply making statements I have never said and trying to make an argument against it.

Let's look at the proof again slowly maybe you missed it or did not read the scriptures in the post provided earlier...

JAMES 2:8-12
[8], If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well:
[9], But if ye have respect to persons, YOU COMMIT SIN, AND ARE CONVINCED OF THE LAW AS TRANSGRESSORS .
[10], For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
[11] For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, said also, DO NOT KILL. Now if thou commit NO ADULTERY, yet if thou KILL, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF GOD'S LAW

Yep, James is pretty clear if we brake ANY of God's Law (10 commandments) then we are a TRANSGRESSOR of God's LAW and commit SIN. James quotes two of the 10 Commandments saying that if we break them we commit sin v9 that are summed up in the 2nd great commandments of LOVE to God and LOVE to our neighbor in v11. Maybe you missed that one?

ROMANS 7:7 [7], What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I HAD NOT KNOWN SIN, BUT BY THE LAW: for I had not known lust, EXCEPT THE LAW HAD SAID YOU SHALL NOT COVET.

Well here we have Paul in agreement with James and John also telling us that he did not know what sin was without God's 10 Commandments. SIN is breaking God's commandments and Paul uses the 10th commandment as an example of breaking any of God's LAW (10 commandments) = SIN (Exodus 20:17)

links to...........

1 JOHN 3:4 [4] Whosoever commits SIN transgresses also the law: for SIN is the transgression of the law.

John is saying the same thing as James and Paul and states that if we TRANSGRESS God's LAW then we commit SIN because SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF GOD'S LAW. So it is very clear that SIN is breaking ANY of God's LAW (10 commandments). We will look at the chapter context John uses v15 of MURDER as an example of sin which is God's 6th Command of the 10.

Sorry Steve seems like there is proof in God's WORD that does not agree with you. Paul, James and John all agree that it is SIN to break any of God's 10 Commandments.

Does this not concern you?

Hope this helps

 

[1213]

How do you measure the Sabbath day? (when does it begin and end?)
How do you measure work? (what is, and isn't work?)

By what I know Shabbat day begins at Friday 21 pm and ends at Saturday 21 pm.

Work means the job where you get you paycheck. Good act for person that needs help is not same as work in this.

 

[Soyeong]

I want to take a moment to compliment you on your well thought out position on these things. This subject can be very emotional, but you have kept a level-headed approach. Most debaters on this subject would have been furious with me by now. You come back calm and strong every time. Kudos. --- Oh course, that doesn't mean that I agree with you, just that you have been a worthy opponent. Thanks.

I want you to join our team. But I have my work cut out to win you over. lol ------

Thank you, you have also been a good opponent. If I can be convinced that I was wrong about a position that I strongly opposed for much of my life, then I can be convinced that I was wrong to change my position. But let me ask you this: Do you think that followers of God should seek to walk in His ways? If not, why not?

If all this was about us keeping the law, why did it play out the way it did? What is the point of the atoning work of Christ if what God really wants is obedience to the law?

There are many verses that describe the Mosaic Law as being instructions for how to walk in God's ways, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7, and many others that I could cite, so the Law was not given as instructions for how to live as a Jew, but rather it was primarily given to God's followers as instructions for how to express His character traits, such as holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control.

In other words, we were created in God's image, but that image was damaged like a broken mirror in the Fall, and starting with the promise made in the Garden (Genesis 3:15), God has been in the business of fighting the seed of the serpent, of redeeming the world from sin, of restoring the world to His image, of reconciling the world to Himself, and of making the world to be like Him by having and to expressing His traits, so that when the world sees us they see the One who sent us. Sin and death entered the world as the seed of the serpent and the existence of sin requires there to be a standard of what sin is, which is God's Law, so Eve's seed crushed the head of the serpent by defeating sin and death through the cross. So the point of the atoning work of Christ was to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people who are zealous for doing works that express God's goodness (Titus 2:14). In Ephesians 2:8-10, we have been saved by grace through faith, not by doing good works, but rather we have been made new creations in Christ for the purpose of doing works that express God's goodness.

The Apostle says that if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing! That those who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; they have fallen away from grace. These are some serious issues.

God had many purposes for giving the Mosaic Law, but providing the means of becoming righteous was never one of them, so the fact that we are not made righteous by obeying what God's commands does not mean that we do not need to obey Him. So the Law was given as instructions for how to practice righteousness, not as instructions for how to become righteous. For example, the Law reveals that it is in accordance with God's righteousness to help the poor, but no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone who is not righteous to become righteous because the one and only way that there has ever been to become righteous is by grace through faith. However, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience that faith requires (Romans 1:5), so the same grace and faith by which we are declared righteous also require us to therefore practice righteousness, and indeed those who do not practice righteousness are not children of God (1 John 3:10).

When we have a character trait, then we will express it through our actions, so when God gives us His righteousness and declares us to be righteous, He is also declaring us to be someone who expresses His righteousness through our actions in accordance with His instructions for how to do that found in His Law. We have not received the righteousness of God in order to hide it under a bushel, but in order to let it shine through our actions. Jesus expressed the character traits of the Father through His actions and what that looked like was complete obedience to the Mosaic Law, and our sanctification is about being made to be like him, to have and to express His character traits.

There was a fork in the road to God. The law was given through Moses. But grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. Which way will you go? These are two different paths.

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

There is no "but" in John 1:17 and in 1:16, it says grace upon grace, so the grace of Christ was added upon the grace of the Law.

I see a contrast between the law and grace. They are at odds.

God's Law is not opposed to His grace, as though a house divided against itself could stand, or as though God were acting in violation of His grace by giving the Law to Moses. The contrast between law and grace comes from wrongly identifying which law Paul was speaking about not being under in Romans 6:14. In Romans 6:15, Paul said that being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, so if we are still obligated to refrain from what God's Law revealed to be sin, then we are still under it. Furthermore, everything else in that chapter speaks in favor of obedience to God and against sin, so it does not make any sense to interpret 6:14 as saying that we no longer need to obey what God has commanded and are now free to do what His Law revealed to be sin.

So I think Romans 1:5, Titus 2:11-14, and John 1:16-17 all make a connection between grace and Law. Furthermore, according to Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His Law. According to 2 Peter 3:15-18, growing in grace is contrasted with being taken away with the error of Lawless men. According to Jude 1:4, the ungodly pervert God's grace into license for immorality. According to Strong's, "grace" is defined as "the divine influence upon the heart and its reflection in the life" and when God's will is reflected in our lives, it takes the form of obedience to His law (Psalms 40:8), so grace is the power of God to overcome Lawlessness in our lives and it is by grace that God teaches us to walk in His ways in accordance with His Law.

Galatians 2:21
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

I agree that righteousness does not come by the Law primarily because it was never given for that purpose in the first place.

Galatians 5:4
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

All throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and obey His Law and even Jesus began his ministry with that message (Matthew 4:17-23), so I don't think that it makes any sense to interpret this verses as warning us that if we repent and follow what Christ taught by word and by example that we will be alienated from Christ and fall from grace, especially given everything else that is said about grace in the Bible. In Psalms 119:29, was David wanting God to be gracious to him by teaching him how to fall from grace? In Titus 2:11-14, does our salvation involve being trained by grace to fall from grace? In Romans 1:5, have we received grace in order to bring about our fall from grace? No, the problem was that they were trying to become justified by works of the law instead of by faith.

 

[Saint Steven]

Now Steve you know that statement has no truth in it at all. Your simply making statements I have never said and trying to make an argument against it. …

If that is true, then why don't you answer the question? Instead of implying that I am a liar.

You have no proof that God's law is limited to, or defined as, the Ten Commandments.

 

[Saint Steven]

By what I know Shabbat day begins at Friday 21 pm and ends at Saturday 21 pm.

Work means the job where you get you paycheck. Good act for person that needs help is not same as work in this.

Does the original commandments verify that? What is work for all these individuals? Bonus question: Can you find the wife in this commandment?

Exodus 20:8-11
“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.