Do sacraments save?

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

That may be because you're understanding of "literal" isn't literal. In any case when Jesus says "this is my body" he means that it is his body but not that "this is literally my body" because in that case he'd be asserting something that he didn't assert, namely, that the bread in his hand was his body - presumably his entire body - rather than that the bread was his body and the wine his blood in a way he chose not to explain. They simply are what he said they are and we are to believe it rather than dissect it and pick the explanation that we most prefer.

It was obviously symbolism.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It was obviously symbolism.

Some say that; Jehovah's witnesses make their bible say it by translating it as "this means my body" and "this means my blood". It makes it easier for them to change the teaching of Christ if they can change what he said in the bibles they print. I, for one, do not think "this is my body" is symbolic.

 

[concretecamper]

The first passage says that baptism saves us, the second says that eating the flesh of Christ and drinking his blood is necessary to have life.

The Church teaches:

1. Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception for salvation.

2. For children before the age of reason, the reception of the Eucharist is not necessary for salvation.

These are very consistent with the Gospel.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

The Church teaches:

1. Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception for salvation.

2. For children before the age of reason, the reception of the Eucharist is not necessary for salvation.

These are very consistent with the Gospel.

Your use of the words, “The Church”, makes me suspicious.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Your use of the words, “The Church”, makes me suspicious.

It means The Catholic Church

 

[concretecamper]

Your use of the words, “The Church”, makes me suspicious.

Ok

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

It means The Catholic Church

oh, ok. lol.

 

[Jamdoc]

oh, ok. lol.

unlike other denominations, Catholics don't see "the Church" as being a universal body of Christ, they only see the institutionalized Roman Catholic Church, and everyone else is not part of the Church, with varying degrees of believing everyone outside of the RCC is hellbound heretics

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Ok

unlike other denominations, Catholics don't see "the Church" as being a universal body of Christ, they only see the institutionalized Roman Catholic Church, and everyone else is not part of the Church, with varying degrees of believing everyone outside of the RCC is hellbound heretics

Yeah, I was thinking it is something a Catholic who believes what you stated would say or someone in a cult. I was on my phone, so I couldn't check their stated affiliation. However, most of the Catholics I know personally don't seem to adhere to that belief, especially the professed born again ones.

 

[Valletta]

unlike other denominations, Catholics don't see "the Church" as being a universal body of Christ, they only see the institutionalized Roman Catholic Church, and everyone else is not part of the Church, with varying degrees of believing everyone outside of the RCC is hellbound heretics

False. Often my thoughts of the Catholic Church are of the part of the Church in Heaven, with our leader Jesus Christ and all of the saints praying for the rest of us. I don't consider Heaven or the Catholic Church an "institution". Other Christians are our brothers and sisters in Christ. God is merciful and it is our belief that God continues to save us when we fall and a good number of Christians, Catholic or not, will go to Heaven.

 

[Valletta]

Yeah, I was thinking it is something a Catholic who believes what you stated would say or someone in a cult. I was on my phone, so I couldn't check their stated affiliation. However, most of the Catholics I know personally don't seem to adhere to that belief, especially the professed born again ones.

All Catholics are born again through the sacrament of Baptism.

 

[Jamdoc]

Yeah, I was thinking it is something a Catholic who believes what you stated would say or someone in a cult. I was on my phone, so I couldn't check their stated affiliation. However, most of the Catholics I know personally don't seem to adhere to that belief, especially the professed born again ones.

that's why I said "varying degrees", yeah not all catholics will consider a Christian of another denomination to be a heretic but the official stance of the RCC itself is there's no salvation outside of the ordained RCC.

 

[Valletta]

that's why I said "varying degrees", yeah not all catholics will consider a Christian of another denomination to be a heretic but the official stance of the RCC itself is there's no salvation outside of the ordained RCC.

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. 337

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

All Catholics are born again through the sacrament of Baptism.

How can sprinkling some water on a person cause God to give birth to them spiritually?

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

Do you care to explain what this is saying? It has so much Catholic jargon in it. What is "the sin of separation"? What is "born into these communities"? What is "that resulted from such separation"? What is "justified by faith in Baptism"? What is "incorporated into Christ"?

831 Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. 337

This part seems easier to understand, but it also seems to be unscriptural. The NT says plainly that salvation is only through faith in Christ. It speaks nowhere of a path to eternal life though following the dictates of one's conscience.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3

Are 818 and 831 official Catholic documents?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Because they view the sacraments as somewhat of a magic ritual

That is incorrect.

One baptises adults and children without any hint of magic in mind. Baptism is the washing of regeneration and the waters through which we are saved. The water doesn't save, but it is a means through which God acts to save his people from their sins.

 

[Valletta]

How can sprinkling some water on a person cause God to give birth to them spiritually?

Water is a sign of the Holy Spirit at work.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Are 818 and 831 official Catholic documents?

If 818 and 831 are sections from the Catechism of the Catholic Church then they are parts of the Catechism, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church is authentic Catholic teaching but not canonical Catholic dogmatic definition.

CCC 818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers .... All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

CCC 831 Secondly, the Church is catholic because she has been sent out by Christ on a mission to the whole of the human race: (Cf. Mt 28:19.)

All men are called to belong to the new People of God. This People, therefore, while remaining one and only one, is to be spread throughout the whole world and to all ages in order that the design of God's will may be fulfilled: he made human nature one in the beginning and has decreed that all his children who were scattered should be finally gathered together as one.... the character of universality which adorns the People of God is a gift from the Lord himself whereby the Catholic Church ceaselessly and efficaciously seeks for the return of all humanity and all its goods, under Christ the Head in the unity of his Spirit. (LG 13 ## 1-2; cf. Jn 11:52.)​

 

[Valletta]

Do you care to explain what this is saying? It has so much Catholic jargon in it. What is "the sin of separation"? What is "born into these communities"? What is "that resulted from such separation"? What is "justified by faith in Baptism"? What is "incorporated into Christ"?

This part seems easier to understand, but it also seems to be unscriptural. The NT says plainly that salvation is only through faith in Christ. It speaks nowhere of a path to eternal life though following the dictates of one's conscience.

Are 818 and 831 official Catholic documents?

1 Pet 3:20-21 God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism, which saves you now.

That should be 818 and 847 (I got that number wrong, sorry). Those are quotations from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is an official document for which I provided a link. Perhaps it would be beneficial for you to read the whole section:.
Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Because they view the sacraments as somewhat of a magic ritual that does something rather than a symbol of Christ's death and resurrection.
Communion is "this do in remembrance of me", but to them, they see it as a ritual where they magically convert the bread and wine into the flesh and blood of Jesus (despite still crunching like bread wafers and tasting like wine) which they consume because of John 6 which they take literally when in John 6 itself Jesus clarifies that the flesh profiteth nothing.

Here's the dead ringer to me.
Eating human flesh is an abominable sin, so is eating any blood. In fact not eating blood is one of the few dietary laws the apostles still taught gentile converts (Acts 15:20)
Jesus would not be telling people to sin in order to enter heaven.

If it were possible they'd say you'd need to have your feet washed personally by Jesus as a sacrament as well because of John 13:8

the RCC seeks out as much religion as possible that they can do, because for them faith in Christ is not enough, they REQUIRE extra steps because otherwise it seems too easy, a free gift? Surely *I* have to do something.

I think there's more going on in their minds than what you describe. I certainly see in the document linked to above (CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, SECOND EDITION) a belief that they have been entrusted by God (through Peter) to be the center of the Christian universe on earth. They do give some people outside the Catholic Faith "the right to be called Christians" (this actually can be viewed as quite offensive). But then they say there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church except for people who through no fault of their own do not know anything about the Catholic Church.

I have always thought at some point in history they went astray and became very "religious" instead of spiritual. Maybe Peter never really escaped the influence of the Judaizers that influenced him as reported in Galatians.