Do sacraments save?

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

That should be 818 and 847, sorry. Those are quotes from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is an official document for which I provided a link. Perhaps it would be beneficial for you to read the whole section:.
Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3

I have it open now and have read through some of it. Much of it is hard to undertand. But the parts that are easier to understand are deeply troubling.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

(this actually can be viewed as quite offensive)

Only if you try very hard to feel offended by an acknowledgement that your expression of faith is Christian rather than the backhanded "some Catholics may be saved" that we typically receive from evangelicals evangelising among Catholics. I can see that you are trying very hard to feel offended by the CCC.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I have always thought at some point in history they went astray and became very "religious" instead of spiritual. Maybe Peter never really escaped the influence of the Judaizers that influenced him as reported in Galatians.

And this is, of course, intended to be offensive; not only to Catholics but to saint Peter too.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Only if you try very hard to feel offended by an acknowledgement that your expression of faith is Christian rather than the backhanded "some Catholics may be saved" that we typically receive from evangelicals evangelising among Catholics. I can see that you are trying very hard to feel offended by the CCC.

I was ofended because I don't need the Catholic Church's permission to be called a Christian.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I was ofended because I don't need the Catholic Church's permission to be called a Christian.

Okay, then pretend we didn't write it in the CCC, and move on.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

And this is, of course, intended to be offensive; not only to Catholics but to saint Peter too.

Peter needed to be corrected by Paul because he was abandoning faith in favor of legalism, so he is not without sin. And he was in charge of the gospel to the Jews as Paul was to the Gentiles. So, it would make sense that Some of the Jewish customs would in some way transfer to the church he founded. They had a High Priest, you have a Pope. They wore robes and waved incense, and you do similar things. The only offensive part of what I said was about legalism. But honestly, I see a lot of "follow these rules to go to heaven" issues in Catholicism (as I also see in many other denominations).

 

[ViaCrucis]

What, do you mean like the rituals are something like magic and being dunked or sprinkled with water with some special words and drinking bread and wine give life? Then no.

If, on the other hand, you mean that the significance of the sacraments is salvific, then sure.

By talking about "the rituals" I think you are putting the cart before the horse.

The rituals developed over time (and could in different ways differ depending on time and place) as a kind of accompanyment to the Sacraments.

Baptism, if we want to reduce it to the bare elements, consists of the use of water, in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, through which God promises to act in a certain way.

Remember the time Jesus took some dirt, spit in it, and mixed it in his hands and then applied it to a blind man's eyes, and that blind man then could see again?

Or remember that time in the Old Testament when Naaman was told by the Prophet Elisha to go and dip himself seven times in the river and he would be cleaned of leprosy?

Throughout the Bible, actually, God uses matter to accomplish certain works. Things like Baptism and the Lord's Supper are just like that. The difference here is that the instruction to dip seven times in the river to be cured of leprosy was specific to Naaman, rather than a general promise. In the case of Baptism, it is for "all nations". So all who enter through faith enter through the waters of Holy Baptism--because God says so.

God has attached His promise, has said He will do something, connecting it with water.

Now the "ritual", the accompaniments, the specific prayers and actions in a formal setting surrounding Baptism provide good order and a time-tested way of couching Baptism in something that is recognizable within the Church from generation to generation. The ritual provides a teaching moment, a way to preach the word and talk about God's promise in a way that can be understood for the benefit of all. So every time we celebrate a baptism in the Church, there is an opportunity to hear and remember God's word, the same word that we heard in the beginning, and the same word which continues to define us as God's people. We are invited, at every baptism, to remember our own baptism, that is, to remember God's word and promise, to remember God's grace, the love and kindness which God has shown us. Even if we were too young to remember our baptism itself, we have been surrounded with God's word, with the preaching of that word, and it continues to inform, teach, and quicken us and gift us faith, strengthen our faith, and call us ever to gaze to Christ who is our Savior.

Rituals don't save anyone.

Baptism, however, does save (1 Peter 3:21), not because water on the skin saves us (not because mud cures blindness), but because of the power and word of God there connected with water. Or to go back to 1 Peter 3:21, the answer of a clean conscience before God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ; in baptism we are renewed, regenerated, given as pure gift life from God in Christ who died and rose again. We, therefore, died with Christ, were buried with Christ, and were raised with Christ. That happened in the water, not because of some magical property of water; not because "rituals" save; but because God has established that this use of water has this specific purpose and God abides by what He promises to do.

If God uses mud to cure blindness, can use a bronze serpent to cure snake bites, or use a boat to save all the animals and one family. God is clearly capable of using water to communicate, convey, and make us benefit of what He says He will do.

God says so, God says He will do this. That's what makes baptism salvific: God's promise to save.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Okay, then pretend we didn't write it in the CCC, and move on.

Yes, that may be the best approach.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I was ofended because I don't need the Catholic Church's permission to be called a Christian.

I'm just going to share my personal experience as a Christian.

I was raised in a non-denominational Evangelical, and then later Pentecostal, church background. During that whole time, up until my early 20's give or take. I never experienced a Catholic, or an Episcopalian, or a Lutheran, or an Orthodox ever tell me I'm not a Christian.

However, tests of whether I was a "real Christian" were common in the church circles I lived in.

In my 20's when I was moving away from the theological views of my upbringing, and began looking at more historic, traditional churches (eventually I became Lutheran, which I still am). I never had to prove or have permission to call myself a Christian to any Catholics, or Lutherans, or Anglicans, or etc.

But I have consistently had to defend my status as a Christian when talking with less traditional Christians.

I've never had, for example, a Catholic attempt to make me prove to them I was a Christian. They just accepted that I was, because I believe in Jesus, they believe in Jesus, and whatever might divide us doctrinally didn't change the fact that we were both Christians.

But I have had various Evangelicals do that.

When I was an Evangelical I regularly had to share my testimony, which went something like, at the age of four I asked Jesus into my heart and become my personal Lord and Savior. I never mentioned all the spiritual turmoil surrounding that which I wrestled with, having my testimony was important because that was made me fit in, that was my Christian ID.

Now, of course, when I share my personal story of a life of faith, I mention that there was never a time when I didn't believe in Jesus. I have memories that go back to when I was quite little--I can remember being four years old and going through the Sinner's Prayer with my parents. Heck, I can remember when I was two and I fell into a swimming pool at my mom's cousin's house and she had to rescue me. I remember my little brother's face when my dad lifted me up to show me him just hours after he was born. In every memory I have, I already believed in Jesus. Because there was never a moment that went by from the day I came into this world crying that my parents didn't talk about Jesus.

However, when I've shared that story, without mentioning the "Sinner's Prayer" part when I was four, I've been accused of not being a real Christian. I've been told that nobody is born a Christian, and then I get compared to calling myself a car for visiting a garage. Because I had to prove--I needed permission--to call myself a Christian.

But it wasn't those churches which talk about Baptism, the Lord's Supper, etc which questioned or required me to get their permission to call myself a Christian.

I have regularly found myself wondering how so many churches which regularly talk about "grace alone" and "faith alone", when push comes to shove, refuse to accept either grace or faith when it comes to salvation. Instead, what matters--or so I have been told over and over again for around four decades now, is the stuff I'm supposed to do, the works I have needed to do, in order to be saved and call myself a Christian.

I realized a long time ago that I was raised hearing "grace alone", but there was no grace in what I was being taught. I was raised hearing "faith alone", but trusting in Jesus was never enough. I was raised hearing "Christ's work alone", but what Jesus did wasn't enough. It was always up to me, to prove my worth, to prove my Christian certification, by having done the right things, and meeting a highly specific set of criteria. And that meant that, in a very tragic sense, I had grown up never really hearing the Gospel. Assurance, I was told, was necessary for me to be saved; but I never had assurance growing up, because I was constantly told to look at myself. Did I "mean it" when I asked Jesus into my heart, for example. Was I actually sorry for my sins when I asked Jesus to be my Savior--a difficult question I imagine for any eight year old to answer.

What I wasn't told, and what I really needed to hear, was "It's not up to you, Jesus died for you, trust Him." Because the day I finally heard that, my life changed. That wasn't the day I became a Christian. That wasn't the day I "got saved". But that was the day when my view of God turned upside-down, and I began to see God and know God through Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I'm just going to share my personal experience as a Christian.

I was raised in a non-denominational Evangelical, and then later Pentecostal, church background. During that whole time, up until my early 20's give or take. I never experienced a Catholic, or an Episcopalian, or a Lutheran, or an Orthodox ever tell me I'm not a Christian.

However, tests of whether I was a "real Christian" were common in the church circles I lived in.

In my 20's when I was moving away from the theological views of my upbringing, and began looking at more historic, traditional churches (eventually I became Lutheran, which I still am). I never had to prove or have permission to call myself a Christian to any Catholics, or Lutherans, or Anglicans, or etc.

But I have consistently had to defend my status as a Christian when talking with less traditional Christians.

I've never had, for example, a Catholic attempt to make me prove to them I was a Christian. They just accepted that I was, because I believe in Jesus, they believe in Jesus, and whatever might divide us doctrinally didn't change the fact that we were both Christians.

But I have had various Evangelicals do that.

When I was an Evangelical I regularly had to share my testimony, which went something like, at the age of four I asked Jesus into my heart and become my personal Lord and Savior. I never mentioned all the spiritual turmoil surrounding that which I wrestled with, having my testimony was important because that was made me fit in, that was my Christian ID.

Now, of course, when I share my personal story of a life of faith, I mention that there was never a time when I didn't believe in Jesus. I have memories that go back to when I was quite little--I can remember being four years old and going through the Sinner's Prayer with my parents. Heck, I can remember when I was two and I fell into a swimming pool at my mom's cousin's house and she had to rescue me. I remember my little brother's face when my dad lifted me up to show me him just hours after he was born. In every memory I have, I already believed in Jesus. Because there was never a moment that went by from the day I came into this world crying that my parents didn't talk about Jesus.

However, when I've shared that story, without mentioning the "Sinner's Prayer" part when I was four, I've been accused of not being a real Christian. I've been told that nobody is born a Christian, and then I get compared to calling myself a car for visiting a garage. Because I had to prove--I needed permission--to call myself a Christian.

But it wasn't those churches which talk about Baptism, the Lord's Supper, etc which questioned or required me to get their permission to call myself a Christian.

I have regularly found myself wondering how so many churches which regularly talk about "grace alone" and "faith alone", when push comes to shove, refuse to accept either grace or faith when it comes to salvation. Instead, what matters--or so I have been told over and over again for around four decades now, is the stuff I'm supposed to do, the works I have needed to do, in order to be saved and call myself a Christian.

I realized a long time ago that I was raised hearing "grace alone", but there was no grace in what I was being taught. I was raised hearing "faith alone", but trusting in Jesus was never enough. I was raised hearing "Christ's work alone", but what Jesus did wasn't enough. It was always up to me, to prove my worth, to prove my Christian certification, by having done the right things, and meeting a highly specific set of criteria. And that meant that, in a very tragic sense, I had grown up never really hearing the Gospel. Assurance, I was told, was necessary for me to be saved; but I never had assurance growing up, because I was constantly told to look at myself. Did I "mean it" when I asked Jesus into my heart, for example. Was I actually sorry for my sins when I asked Jesus to be my Savior--a difficult question I imagine for any eight year old to answer.

What I wasn't told, and what I really needed to hear, was "It's not up to you, Jesus died for you, trust Him." Because the day I finally heard that, my life changed. That wasn't the day I became a Christian. That wasn't the day I "got saved". But that was the day when my view of God turned upside-down, and I began to see God and know God through Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran

Hear, hear!

Your are a Christian because of what Jesus did. You do not need "papers" to show others as proof of your birth from above.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

The first passage says that baptism saves us, the second says that eating the flesh of Christ and drinking his blood is necessary to have life.

First, baptism means dunk or immersion, not sprinkling. Do it improperly doesn't get you saved;

Second, the purpose of communion is for remembrace of the Lord's sacrifice, not for salvation. Internalization of physical food doesn't save, internalization of spiritual food does, for man shall not live by bread alone, but every word proceeds from the mouth of God.

For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me. For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes. (1 Cor. 11:23-26)

Third, God cares more about your moral character than your religious behavior. Jesus was kind and merciful to everyone, including the soldiers who crucified him, the only group of people he harshly criticized was the virtue signaling hypocrits.

Hear the word of the Lord,
You rulers of Sodom;
Give ear to the law of our God,
You people of Gomorrah:
“To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?”
Says the Lord.
“I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle.
I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
Or of lambs or goats.
“When you come to appear before Me,
Who has required this from your hand,
To trample My courts?
Bring no more futile sacrifices;
Incense is an abomination to Me.
The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies—
I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting.
Your New Moons and your appointed feasts
My soul hates;
They are a trouble to Me,
I am weary of bearing them.
When you spread out your hands,
I will hide My eyes from you;
Even though you make many prayers,
I will not hear.
Your hands are full of blood.
“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
Put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes.
Cease to do evil,
Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Rebuke the oppressor;
Defend the fatherless,
Plead for the widow.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

First, baptism means dunk or immersion, not sprinkling. Do it improperly doesn't get you saved

What passage of scripture do you rely on for the claim "do it improperly doesn't get you saved"?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

What passage of scripture do you rely on for the claim "do it improperly doesn't get you saved"?

Cain and Abel. God respected Abel who worshiped in God's way and disrespected Cain who worshiped in his own way, even though Cain was the firstborn and revered as the man acquired from God.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

What passage of scripture do you rely on for the claim "do it improperly doesn't get you saved"?

There's another instance where Aaron's two sons set profane fire or "strange fire" for burning offering, they didn't do it properly, and they got struck dead.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

First, baptism means dunk or immersion, not sprinkling. Do it improperly doesn't get you saved

What passage of scripture do you rely on for the claim "do it improperly doesn't get you saved"?

Cain and Abel. God respected Abel who worshiped in God's way and disrespected Cain who worshiped in his own way, even though Cain was the firstborn and revered as the man acquired from God.

Nope, Cain did "it" the wrong way and was corrected but not condemned by God. Your post takes the example well beyond what the scripture says.

There's another instance where Aaron's two sons set profane fire or "strange fire" for burning offering, they didn't do it properly, and they got struck dead.

Nope, baptism isn't us offering God something, baptism is God washing away the sins of the person who is baptised, as the scripture says, Acts 22:16

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

What passage of scripture do you rely on for the claim "do it improperly doesn't get you saved"?

Nope, Cain did "it" the wrong way and was corrected but not condemned by God. Your post takes the example well beyond what the scripture says.

Nope, baptism isn't us offering God something, baptism is God washing away the sins of the person who is baptised, as the scripture says, Acts 22:16

If you do sprinkling, that's just sprinkling, not baptizing, what passage of scripture do you need for that?

 

[RileyG]

Sacraments are given by Christ therefore give Grace. IT's God's gift to us.

 

[RileyG]

If you do sprinkling, that's just sprinkling, not baptizing, what passage of scripture do you need for that?

The Didache (teachings of the Apostles) was fine with sprinkling for Baptism, and Baptism for children.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

The Didache (teachings of the Apostles) was fine with sprinkling for Baptism, and Baptism for children.

Come on, that is just tradition. I'm pretty sure John the Baptist didn't baptise Jesus by sprinkling on his head.

 

[RileyG]

Come on, that is just tradition. I'm pretty sure John the Baptist didn't baptise Jesus by sprinkling on his head.

You're right.

(Also, tradition changes over time. How do you think we got the Bible? From Sacred tradition, but that's a different topic. )