Do sacraments save?

[Xeno.of.athens]

No, he has saved through the cross.

And the cross is not a means? Surely that cannot be.

 

[All Becomes New]

Both of those statements are completely false.

How so? The Catholic church believes that the church has equal authority as scripture because the Magisterium and Pope are infallible in their judgments.

Trent Horn affirms exactly this in this debate on Sola Scriptura.

Gavin Ortlund Vs.Trent Horn: Is Sola Scriptura True

Gavin Ortlund of (@TruthUnites ) and Trent Horn (@TheCounselofTrent ) debate whether scripture is the sole rule of faith for Christians.Join our Locals commu...

www.youtube.com

The point of the Reformation was that scripture alone was infallible. What makes Luther stand out is that he wrote 95 things that the Catholic Church was doing that contradicted scripture.

 

[Strong in Him]

And the cross is not a means? Surely that cannot be.

It is THE means.

Baptism, communion, liturgy, doctrine, hymns/music, clergy etc etc do not reconcile mankind to God.
Jesus is the ONLY name through which we can be saved - Peter said that.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It is THE means.

Surely it is a means. Christ alone is The Saviour. The cross is the altar upon which he was sacrificed. And the sacraments are also means, the means by which Christ includes members into his body. Just as preaching is the means by which the gospel is communicated.

 

[Strong in Him]

Surely it is a means. Christ alone is The Saviour. The cross is the altar upon which he was sacrificed.

Yes - when I say, "the cross", I mean the fact that Christ, the spotless Lamb of God, gave his life as a ransom for many, Mark 10:45.
He alone - his sacrificial death on the cross - saves.

And the sacraments are also means, the means by which Christ includes members into his body.

But not the means by which we have eternal life and become new creations.
When we receive Jesus and are filled with his Spirit, we become children of God, John 1:12, Romans 8:16-17. A believer can be filled with the Spirit without receiving sacraments - the disciples were at Pentecost, so were Gentiles who heard the Gospel.

Just as preaching is the means by which the gospel is communicated.

Or through books, songs, hymns, personal testimony, art, Gospel illusions, reading the Gospels etc etc.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

But not the means by which we have eternal life and become new creations.
When we receive Jesus and are filled with his Spirit, we become children of God, John 1:12, Romans 8:16-17. A believer can be filled with the Spirit without receiving sacraments - the disciples were at Pentecost, so were Gentiles who heard the Gospel.

Well, saint Peter says baptism saves us (1Peter 3.21), Jesus says his body and blood give us life (john 6:53). I think that the difficulty in your perspective is that you require exactly one way to be saved while the Catholic Church teaches only one person by whom we are saved and many ways by which he chooses to save us.

 

[Dan Perez]

Well, saint Peter says baptism saves us (1Peter 3.21), Jesus says his body and blood give us life (john 6:53). I think that the difficulty in your perspective is that you require exactly one way to be saved while the Catholic Church teaches only one person by whom we are saved and many ways by which he chooses to save us.

And 1 Peter 3:21 does NOT say water baptism save as the Greek word is not BAPTISO but is the Greek word BAPTISMA and Eph tells all what BAPTISMA means in Eph 4:5 says that there is ONE BAPTISMA , The Holy Spirit and THIS Greek is used 22 times in MATTHEW through to 1 Peter 3:21 .

Rom 6: 4 that one BAPTISMA places all the are believers into Christ death and without that being united together in the likeness of his death , yet we will also of the RESURRECTION .

dan p

 

[The Liturgist]

No, I am saying that someone can trust in, and receive, Jesus, die before receiving any sacraments and they are still saved.
They may not be baptised, they may not have been able to "do this in memory of me". Trusting that Jesus died for our sins, that he died to give his life as a ransom for many, Mark 10:45 and that his blood was shed for the forgiveness of sin, Matthew 26:28, is enough.

What you are describing as my friend @FireDragon76 wrote is covered under the doctrine of the Baptism of Desire, if someone dies before having the opportunity to be baptized, they are saved by virtue of their desire for baptism. Likewise if someone is martyred for Christ before being baptized, that is the Baptism of Blood, and also in the Orthodox Church is considered a guarantee of salvation and confers immediate sainthood. This Is why when twenty Coptic Christians were martyred by ISIS in Libya a few years back, and a Ghanaian bravely told their Muslim captors after witnessing the carnage that the God of the Coptic martyrs was his God, and was martyred alongside them, he is also venerated as a saint.

St. Matthew Ayariga, together with your faithful and pious fellow martyrs, pray for us!

By the way @dzheremi have you heard about the new cathedral dedicated to them? After some wrangling, the Libyan government finally turned over the relics of St. Matthew Ayariga to the Coptic Church; they had previously supplied the relics of the other saints martyred in Sirte.

 

[bling]

A lot of evangelicals would answer the thread topic with a resounding "NO". But why?

Is it because they are completely committed to the idea that one is saved by faith alone and not by works? Some say that participating in a sacrament is a "work" and they reason from that claim to the conclusion that sacraments - being works - cannot save.

Yet the scriptures tell us this: now you also are saved, in a similar manner, by baptism 1 Peter 3:21 and Jesus tells us "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you will not have life in you." John 6:53

The first passage says that baptism saves us, the second says that eating the flesh of Christ and drinking his blood is necessary to have life.

God saves and not water, wine, bread fasting, pray, sacrifices or church service.

 

[Strong in Him]

Well, saint Peter says baptism saves us (1Peter 3.21), Jesus says his body and blood give us life (john 6:53). I think that the difficulty in your perspective is that you require exactly one way to be saved while the Catholic Church teaches only one person by whom we are saved and many ways by which he chooses to save us.

I'm not denying that he can USE many things to draw us to his Son, through whom we are saved.

But sacraments themselves do not save - or 2 of my brothers, baptised as babies but haven't set foot in a church since, apart from weddings/funerals, would be saved.
My grandfather who was confirmed twice - once as a child and once in the Navy because everyone was, no questions, would be saved - even though he became a Freemason. My aunt, who was baptised, and maybe confirmed, would be saved - yet she's a humanist.
Sacraments, especially baptism and communion, can, these days, be taken/received without any profession of faith. My in-laws have had all their children baptised and one has taken her first communion - they don't go to church. If they continue without Christ for the rest of their lives, they will find that being baptised does not open the gate of heaven.

 

[Strong in Him]

What you are describing as my friend @FireDragon76 wrote is covered under the doctrine of the Baptism of Desire, if someone dies before having the opportunity to be baptized, they are saved by virtue of their desire for baptism.

They are saved through Jesus, then, not the sacraments.

If they confess that Jesus is Lord, believe he was raised from the dead and come to him, they have eternal life, Romans 10:9. Either, God says that this is sufficient or he says, "well you would have been baptised so I'll count it that you have been". But they would be saved without having received baptism, communion or any other sacrament.
God knows what it cost him to send his Son to die for us - personally I am certain that Jesus is sufficient to save, without any added help.

 

[FireDragon76]

God saves and not water, wine, bread fasting, pray, sacrifices or church service.

But tracts and street preachers save?

And it's not wine and bread. It's the body and blood of Christ. Bread and wine are merely the outward symbols. We receive both in the sacrament.

Frankly I have no interest in a religion that's just about listening to a Bible lecture by a preacher and singing a few poorly-written songs and calling it "religion". I know far more about religion than most pastors. So unless you do something "religious", I see no reason to be involved in a church. I could as easily sleep in on Sunday mornings or do alot of other more edifying things, besides wasting my time in such a manner.

So sacraments and communal rituals are involved somehow in salvation, or Christianity, as an organized religion, is just a waste of time in an age saturated with lots of other equally compelling images or stories about the world.

 

[Strong in Him]

So sacraments and communal rituals are involved somehow in salvation, or Christianity, as an organized religion, is just a waste of time.

They ae not involved in salvation; they are involved in our Christian growth and are part of our Christin walk.
Otherwise, as I said, non Christians who took them would be saved - even if they only thought Jesus was a good man.

JWs and Mormons baptise - both deny the Trinity, one denies the cross; are they saved?
The Salvation Army don't baptise, nor have communion - they believe that every service is a sacred act of worship. You're surely not going to tell me that they're not saved?

 

[FireDragon76]

They ae not involved in salvation; they are involved in our Christian growth and are part of our Christin walk.

Show me in the Bible where it uses such language. Everything in the Bible about the sacraments suggests something quite different, that they are effectual signs of our justification, not merely sanctification.

Otherwise, as I said, non Christians who took them would be saved - even if they only thought Jesus was a good man.

How do you know they won't be? You see, that's not an argument against the sacraments, it's an argument against a particular view of salvation, that it's all about an individual's choice to accept and internalize a religious ideology or affectation.

JWs and Mormons baptise - both deny the Trinity, one denies the cross; are they saved?

If they believe in Jesus as Lord, why not? Do you think we are saved by correct theology? If that's the case, then small children most certainly go to Hell, as do the vast majority of adults.

The Salvation Army don't baptise, nor have communion - they believe that every service is a sacred act of worship. You're surely not going to tell me that they're not saved?

At best, they are a parachurch ministry.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Eph tells all what BAPTISMA means

Yes, Baptisma means baptism. There is one baptism, it is with water, and it saves (1Peter 3.21).

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

2 of my brothers, baptised as babies but haven't set foot in a church since, apart from weddings/funerals, would be saved.

And you're sure that they are not "saved"? Really?

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

"Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you will not have life in you." John 6:53

This is the very thing we are doing when we take communion. We eat the unleavened bread in memory of Jesus sacrificing His body on the cross for us; taking our sins upon His body, nailing the sins of the world to the cross.

When we take the fruit of the vine, we are remembering that He freely shed His blood to do away with our sins.

The only way we can inherit life eternal is to believe that the sacrifice of His body and His shed blood was for us.

The first passage says that baptism saves us, the second says that eating the flesh of Christ and drinking his blood is necessary to have life.

Romans 3:10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;

We all came short of God's glory, we are all sinners. Because of our sin, we are spiritually dead, unable to save ourself and God's wrath is upon us. Yet God in His grace gave His Son, who took on our sins and bore God's wrath. Thus God's wrath was satisfied. God cannot just forgive sin, without punishment. Jesus bore that punishment, He is the perfect, righteous substitute. He is the reason why God can forgive our sins. Without Jesus' sacrifice, God can forgive no one.

We done nothing do deserve God's grace. It is Jesus' righteousness and not ours. Those who try to please God with their own righteousness reject Jesus' righteousness. Those who try to reach God's salvation by their deeds, reject Jesus and God's grace, and will be judged by their deeds and the Law and as we know, the Law saves no one Romans 3:20 'For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.'

Galatians 2:15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified[b] by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Just because a person says they are Christians and they are saved doesn't mean they are. Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[b] but on God, who has mercy.

Salvation does not depend on our deeds or efforts, but on God alone. You can go to church every week, pray every day, praise God, spread Gospel, but it does not mean you are saved. On outside many appear they are saved, but on the inside they are not. Many profess Christ their saviour but then do not do God's will. Many call them selves Christians yet they agree with abortion, homosexuality etc. The Bible teaches that the true Christian lovingly does God's will, and if you do not, then you lie to yourself you are a Christian.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
The water in this verse does not mean water baptism, but washing away of sins, which is only done by God. Anyone can get baptised by water, but unless you have faith of what Jesus done on cross, the water baptism will do nothing. One has to be born of Holy Spirit, and that is only something God does, we do not even know we are under sin and that we are unable to save ourselves. Thus many people today sadly try to reach Heaven by their own deeds, but we are all under God's wrath, unless God forgives us.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

We eat the unleavened bread in memory of Jesus sacrificing His body on the cross for us

Protestant explanations of the last supper passages in the gospels almost always tend to explain away the "is" in the Lord's words "this is my body" and "this is my blood" by giving emphasis to "do this in memory of me" - as if remembering obliterates the "is" that Jesus spoke. It is discouraging to see. But it is so common that there really is no point discussing it because there will always be someone ready to make the same claim no matter how many times it is laid to rest.

 

[FireDragon76]

Protestant explanations of the last supper passages in the gospels almost always tend to explain away the "is" in the Lord's words "this is my body" and "this is my blood" by giving emphasis to "do this in memory of me" - as if remembering obliterates the "is" that Jesus spoke. It is discouraging to see. But it is so common that there really is no point discussing it because there will always be someone ready to make the same claim no matter how many times it is laid to rest.

It's a pretty poor Protestant explanation at that. Even the Puritans did not have such a low view of the sacrament. There is an element of a mystery in the sacrament that modern American Evangelicals simply dismiss as superstition, and they reduce it to mental contemplation or a meritorious work. But that's not how any 1st century Jew would have understood it.

 

[Jamdoc]

A lot of evangelicals would answer the thread topic with a resounding "NO". But why?

Is it because they are completely committed to the idea that one is saved by faith alone and not by works? Some say that participating in a sacrament is a "work" and they reason from that claim to the conclusion that sacraments - being works - cannot save.

Yet the scriptures tell us this: now you also are saved, in a similar manner, by baptism 1 Peter 3:21 and Jesus tells us "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you will not have life in you." John 6:53

The first passage says that baptism saves us, the second says that eating the flesh of Christ and drinking his blood is necessary to have life.

because the simplest passages regarding salvation involve 1 single step: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 16

27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

John 3:16, John 5:24, John 6:37-40, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 10:9, Romans 11:5-6, etc etc etc.
If you add any more necessary steps, then belief then you make those passages lies.
That said the bible is clear that once saved, you will do things, like the sacraments, like obedience, like good works.

We'll agree on what a saved person lives like, just our orders of operations are different. You have do those things to get saved, I have do those things because you're saved. Problem is, your way doesn't fit with the scripture, and if you're trusting in sacraments and works, you're not trusting in Christ alone. That's the most dangerous place to be in.