Do Sabbath Keepers KEEP the Sabbath?

[ace of hearts]

Brother, the earthly temple was replaced by the heavenly temple, where the intercession of Jesus as our high priest in the daily, replaces the need for the death of so many animals, until His soon return.



Although I have not personally examined all the examples of my general statement, it follows from what is revealed in this verse in the book of Hebrews.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. (Hebrews 13:8 NIV)​

Because He never changes, He has not changed anything, He is only taking His true form that could not have come before Jesus with the sacrifice of animals, they were only a shadow of what would come in their place with the daily of Jesus in the heavenly temple.



I know for certain that we can observe the Sabbath anywhere on earth, and not just in Israel. Here in the United States, the Sabbath begins 17 hours before our seventh local day of the week, with Israel our example starting the sabbath 12 hours before their seventh local day of the week.



The shadows are outdated to their reality in Jesus, replaced by their true fulfillment. With the word fulfillment I do not mean that they are in the past, the reality of the intercession of Jesus in the daily, replaces the killing of so many animals in the present and future until Jesus return.

What does keeping the sabbath mean to you?

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

There's nothing in Heb 4 about the sabbath. The subject of the chapter is rest. "Sabbatismos" is a typology (picture) kind of word. Jesus is that rest - Mat 11:28-30 and was offered to sabbath keeping Jews. That means they didn't have God's rest even though they kept the 7th day.

I do not think you understand the article.

 

[guevaraj]

Do you accept Jeremiah a true prophet from God to Israel? What about Hosea?

Brother, if you mean the books that show their names in the protestant Bible, yes, they are part of the cannon of the word of God to me, verified by our own prophet Ellen White.

Since you quote Ex 31:16-17 are you also an Israeli?

I am not an Israeli of blood, but according to the following passage, God sees me as belonging to the “part” of Israel that excepted Jesus, I am no longer a gentile after having “come in”, but an Israelite of the “part” of Israel that excepted Jesus.

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. (Romans 11:25-32 NIV)​

In this previous passage, God sees two parts of Israel, the “part” that excepted Jesus where the gentiles “come in” and the “part” of Israel that will not except Jesus until all the gentiles have come in, something that is still taking place and is completed when Jesus returns from Zion to take us to heaven and unites all Israel under “one flock and one shepard” then fulfilling the next verse where His “other cheap” are the “part” of Israel that has experienced a hardening until He returns from Zion, with Zion meaning heaven.

I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. (John 10:16 NIV)​

United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[guevaraj]

Your post is way to long to respond to every point. You were just quoted Rom 7:6. What is so hard to understand about it since you quoted from 2 Pet 3?

Brother, what is hard to understand is that he is not eliminating the law, he is amplifying it.

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. (Romans 3:31 NIV)​

He is moving value that was misplaced on the law unto its proper place with the work of the Spirit. In my own words he is saying that the law with the Spirit is superior than the law without the Spirit. The law with the Spirit is amplified, more demanding, compared to the law without the Spirit, that is why it is superior.

I guess this is also hard to understand Galatians 4:21-31, Paul just said throw out the law.

Yes, the warning still applies because it is also written by Paul who is not actually doing away with the law, that would be unthinkable.

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. (Romans 3:31 NIV)​

He is moving misplaced trust on the law that he gives to the Spirit, he is not doing away with the law just putting it in its proper place and moving misplaced confidence given to the law to its proper place with the Spirit.

What is so hard to understand about this, Galatians 5:1-4

Again, what is hard to understand is that he is not actually doing away with the law.

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. (Romans 3:31 NIV)​

His moving misplaced confidence in the law unto its proper place with the Spirit, having the author of the law is superior then having the law separate from its author. This does not do away with the law it amplifies it, it makes it more demanding, that is why it is superior then the law alone. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[guevaraj]

What does keeping the sabbath mean to you?

Brother, what it means to me is unimportant, what it means to God makes all the difference. I am not wise enough to understand the ramifications of Gods demands on me, but I trust that what He asks of me will make a bigger difference then anything I could come up with instead of what He wants. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[ace of hearts]

I do not think you understand the article.

I think you're trying to explain away the rest Heb 4 is talking about. The chapter is about rest, not the sabbath. So if you're going to convert me you have to do better.

 

[ace of hearts]

Brother, if you mean the books that show their names in the protestant Bible, yes, they are part of the cannon of the word of God to me, verified by our own prophet Ellen White.

Yeah I've heard about her and have several of her works and access to more on the net. You don't want to start a match about her or your church with me.

I am not an Israeli of blood, but according to the following passage, God sees me as belonging to the “part” of Israel that excepted Jesus, I am no longer a gentile after having “come in”, but an Israelite of the “part” of Israel that excepted Jesus.

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. (Romans 11:25-32 NIV)​

The passage you quote is strictly about Israel and has absolutely nothing to do with gentiles. Perhaps you could be grabbing the wrong text. I think you really meant to quote the part of the chapter about grafting. In which case I refer you specifically to these words "in among them" KJV or "in among the others" NIV.​

In this previous passage, God sees two parts of Israel, the “part” that excepted Jesus where the gentiles “come in” and the “part” of Israel that will not except Jesus until all the gentiles have come in, something that is still taking place and is completed when Jesus returns from Zion to take us to heaven and unites all Israel under “one flock and one shepard” then fulfilling the next verse where His “other cheap” are the “part” of Israel that has experienced a hardening until He returns from Zion, with Zion meaning heaven.

I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. (John 10:16 NIV)​

United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

The Church and Israel aren't synonymous. You need to pay very close attention to you JN 10:16 quote.

 

[ace of hearts]

Brother, what is hard to understand is that he is not eliminating the law, he is amplifying it.

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. (Romans 3:31 NIV)​

He is moving value that was misplaced on the law unto its proper place with the work of the Spirit. In my own words he is saying that the law with the Spirit is superior than the law without the Spirit. The law with the Spirit is amplified, more demanding, compared to the law without the Spirit, that is why it is superior.



Yes, the warning still applies because it is also written by Paul who is not actually doing away with the law, that would be unthinkable.

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. (Romans 3:31 NIV)​

He is moving misplaced trust on the law that he gives to the Spirit, he is not doing away with the law just putting it in its proper place and moving misplaced confidence given to the law to its proper place with the Spirit.



Again, what is hard to understand is that he is not actually doing away with the law.

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. (Romans 3:31 NIV)​

His moving misplaced confidence in the law unto its proper place with the Spirit, having the author of the law is superior then having the law separate from its author. This does not do away with the law it amplifies it, it makes it more demanding, that is why it is superior then the law alone. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

OK so you think I haven't read Rom 7:6 In context of the following verse is specifically about the covenant of the law (the famous 10). It just doesn't get any simpler.

 

[ace of hearts]

Brother, what it means to me is unimportant, what it means to God makes all the difference. I am not wise enough to understand the ramifications of Gods demands on me, but I trust that what He asks of me will make a bigger difference then anything I could come up with instead of what He wants. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

It's very important to you or you wouldn't be here. Now if you want to discuss what it means to God, I'm game.

 

[guevaraj]

The passage you quote is strictly about Israel and has absolutely nothing to do with gentiles.

Brother, our many points of view are not important, the important thing is God’s point of view. For your benefit I will underline the word you missed in the passage.

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in PART until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. (Romans 11:25-32 NIV)​

What is “all Israel” to God? The Gentiles “come in” to the “part” of Israel that excepted Jesus. The early church is completely composed of israelites, all the disciples are israelites, Paul is an israelite and Jesus is an israelite. The only reason you would not want to see yourself as God sees you, a “part” of Israel is because you realize God wants the Sabbath as a lasting covenant “forever”, a sign between us and God that you do not have, showing the fact that you have been deceived by “the error of the lawless” teachers, who abuse the “hard to understand” words of Paul to “distort” the scriptures. Can you see that from the point of view of God we are part of Israel? United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[ace of hearts]

Brother, our many points of view are not important, the important thing is God’s point of view. For your benefit I will underline the word you missed in the passage.

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in PART until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. (Romans 11:25-32 NIV)​

What is “all Israel” to God? The Gentiles “come in” to the “part” of Israel that excepted Jesus. The early church is completely composed of israelites, all the disciples are israelites, Paul is an israelite and Jesus is an israelite. The only reason you would not want to see yourself as God sees you, a “part” of Israel is because you realize God wants the Sabbath as a lasting covenant “forever”, a sign between us and God that you do not have, showing the fact that you have been deceived by “the error of the lawless” teachers, who abuse the “hard to understand” words of Paul to “distort” the scriptures. Can you see that from the point of view of God we are part of Israel? United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

This is a c&p from post 123.

According to Rom 11 the Christian gentile does not become part of Israel. I think I called your attention to the phrase "in among them." This doesn't mean into them. I even mentioned your quote from JN 10:16 where Jesus says plainly not of this fold (Israel) and that Jesus will bring into one fold. Jesus doesn't say He would bring those not of this fold into this fold. Yes that distinction is important. Your take on the verse is Jesus will bring others into this fold (Israel). Simply not what the verse says. In Acts 15 the Apostles didn't bind gentiles to the law of Moses as some pharisees demanded. Acts 15:5; 19-20; 22-29.

Paul didn't teach the law as a requirement as you wish him to say. Rom 7:6; 8:1-14; Gal 3:19, 4:21-5:18; 2 Cor 3:4-8. Paul even calls his life as a pharisee dung in Philippians.

 

[guevaraj]

According to Rom 11 the Christian gentile does not become part of Israel.

Brother, of course they become part of Israel, how else will they enter the new Jerusalem through the 12 gates of the tribes of Israel? God’s plan for the salvation of the nations was to “convert” the gentiles to join Israel. This work to convert the gentiles is ongoing with the part of Israel that excepted Jesus.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are. (Mathew 23:15 NIV)​

They understood God’s love for the nations to do the work to have them join, but they were not teaching them how to be good Israelites.

I think I called your attention to the phrase "in among them." This doesn't mean into them.

The gentile branches of a wild olive tree graft into the 12 tribes of Israel to enter through the 12 gates of the new Jerusalem.

And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; (Romans 11:17 KJV)​

The gentile branches of a wild olive tree became part of Israel through grafting, removing one branch of a tree and adding it to another tree, Israel.

I even mentioned your quote from JN 10:16 where Jesus says plainly not of this fold (Israel) and that Jesus will bring into one fold.

God sees two different parts of Israel not together, which are enemies that He will gather together as “all Israel”.

I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. (John 10:16 NIV)​

The fact that they are not in the “sheep pen” of Jesus does not mean that they are not part of Israel or that we are not part of Israel. Keep in mind that when Jesus brings us together, “all Israel” will be saved, not just the part that excepted Jesus.

Jesus doesn't say He would bring those not of this fold into this fold. Yes that distinction is important.

These two passages explain each other, Romans 11:25-32 explains John 10:16 and John 10:16 helps you understand Romans 11:25-32, they are talking about the same thing. Two groups belonging to God that are enemies that God wants to unite under one flock and one Shepard. Because Judaism did not except Jesus, they expect a different future messiah, until Jesus returns and proves to be the same messiah and He forgives them.

Your take on the verse is Jesus will bring others into this fold (Israel). Simply not what the verse says.

Two parts of Israel, Judaism and Christianity belong to God, but they are enemies and God will unite them to save “all Israel”.

In Acts 15 the Apostles didn't bind gentiles to the law of Moses as some pharisees demanded. Acts 15:5; 19-20; 22-29.

Because the shadows, like the animal sacrifices, were replaced by their reality in Jesus, returning to the shadows means rejecting Jesus as the promised reality of those shadows. But the law of love of God and neighbor in the 10 commandments is not part of those shadows replaced, Paul says that the law is good and what is good is not eliminated, but is sustained in Romans 3:31.

Paul didn't teach the law as a requirement as you wish him to say. Rom 7:6; 8:1-14; Gal 3:19, 4:21-5:18; 2 Cor 3:4-8. Paul even calls his life as a pharisee dung in Philippians.

That is why his words are “hard to understand” and are used to support “the error of the lawless”. Paul himself gives you the correct view in Romans 3:31, where he says that we do not eliminate the law, but uphold the law. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

I think you're trying to explain away the rest Heb 4 is talking about. The chapter is about rest, not the sabbath. So if you're going to convert me you have to do better.

It is now called the Lord's day. The text says there is the keeping of a sabbath now, while we positionally have entered into the eternal reat.

 

[Dkh587]

Yes. There are people all around the world that keep the Sabbath.

 

[ace of hearts]

Brother, of course they become part of Israel, how else will they enter the new Jerusalem through the 12 gates of the tribes of Israel? God’s plan for the salvation of the nations was to “convert” the gentiles to join Israel. This work to convert the gentiles is ongoing with the part of Israel that excepted Jesus.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are. (Mathew 23:15 NIV)​

Children of hell aren't going to be in heaven.

They understood God’s love for the nations to do the work to have them join, but they were not teaching them how to be good Israelites.



The gentile branches of a wild olive tree graft into the 12 tribes of Israel to enter through the 12 gates of the new Jerusalem.

And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; (Romans 11:17 KJV)​

The gentile branches of a wild olive tree became part of Israel through grafting, removing one branch of a tree and adding it to another tree, Israel.



God sees two different parts of Israel not together, which are enemies that He will gather together as “all Israel”.

I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. (John 10:16 NIV)​

The fact that they are not in the “sheep pen” of Jesus does not mean that they are not part of Israel or that we are not part of Israel. Keep in mind that when Jesus brings us together, “all Israel” will be saved, not just the part that excepted Jesus.



These two passages explain each other, Romans 11:25-32 explains John 10:16 and John 10:16 helps you understand Romans 11:25-32, they are talking about the same thing. Two groups belonging to God that are enemies that God wants to unite under one flock and one Shepard. Because Judaism did not except Jesus, they expect a different future messiah, until Jesus returns and proves to be the same messiah and He forgives them.



Two parts of Israel, Judaism and Christianity belong to God, but they are enemies and God will unite them to save “all Israel”.



Because the shadows, like the animal sacrifices, were replaced by their reality in Jesus, returning to the shadows means rejecting Jesus as the promised reality of those shadows. But the law of love of God and neighbor in the 10 commandments is not part of those shadows replaced, Paul says that the law is good and what is good is not eliminated, but is sustained in Romans 3:31.



That is why his words are “hard to understand” and are used to support “the error of the lawless”. Paul himself gives you the correct view in Romans 3:31, where he says that we do not eliminate the law, but uphold the law. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

You seem to be mixed up here. You even bolded "in among them" then turn right around saying in them. You don't understand the olive tree of Jesus day. The branches all came from the root and not the trunk. Google olive trees. You seem to say were graft into the olive tree. The Scriptures plainly say graft into the Root. The Root (Jesus) isn't the tree (Israel). No matter anyway because the Scripture says graft into the Root (Jesus). It doesn't say graft into the tree (Israel).

Let's try another passage -

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Yes we were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel. There is nothing in this whole passage indicating gentile converts now participate in the commonwealth of Israel (become Israeli). Ephesus is no where near Israel. We are no more strangers or foreigners. We're also not citizens of Israel and don't become citizens of Israel. We are fellowcitizens with the saints. Israel is never called saints. In fact if you read the OT, you'll find Israelis were a long way from being saints. The one fold in JN 10:16 isn't Israel. Jesus doesn't say He would bring those of another fold into this (Israel) fold. Acts 15 backs this up in that the gentile converts to Christianity weren't required to follow the law of Moses as some Pharisees demanded v 5. In fact we are told they were subverting the souls of gentiles. Check out the definition of subvert. They were almost successful with my soul. God is good.

 

[ace of hearts]

It is now called the Lord's day. The text says there is the keeping of a sabbath now, while we positionally have entered into the eternal reat.

Sorry, but it doesn't.

 

[guevaraj]

Children of hell aren't going to be in heaven.

Brother, God’s plan will save “all Israel”. God has not abandoned the part of Israel in His “other sheep” that are faithful to the Old Testament, Judaism, and that are not currently of the house of God in the sheep pen of Jesus with the additional New Testament. Before Jesus, there was also rest with the forgiveness of sin, but it was slow to obtain with animal sacrifices at the earthly temple. It took more time to do what was necessary to get rest with the animals in the earthly temple for the forgiveness of sin. The superior rest we have after Jesus is not equivalent to the Sabbath. The current loop of forgiveness internalized is quicker then the external with the animals allowing us to gain the rest quicker then was possible before. The time from knowing you have sinned to gaining forgiveness with the animals in the earthly temple did not give you quick rest like the immediate rest of the forgiveness that we obtain through the intercession of Jesus as our high priest in the heavenly temple. We no longer have a long wait to experience the rest of forgiveness, it is immediate compared to the old system with the animals, but that rest is different from the Sabbath covenant “forever” that God asks of us as a sign between Him and us “forever”.

You seem to be mixed up here. You even bolded "in among them" then turn right around saying in them. You don't understand the olive tree of Jesus day. The branches all came from the root and not the trunk. Google olive trees. You seem to say were graft into the olive tree. The Scriptures plainly say graft into the Root. The Root (Jesus) isn't the tree (Israel). No matter anyway because the Scripture says graft into the Root (Jesus). It doesn't say graft into the tree (Israel).

God did not fail with Israel, He will save “all Israel”. It says grafted in among the branches that were broken off, other branches replacing a broken off branch from the 12 tribes of Israel to enter through the 12 gates of the new Jerusalem. You will need to be added to one of those tribes to belong, already established in the olive tree of Israel. We feed from the root like the rest of the tree but are not grafted into the root, we replace the broken off branches, the tree was not broken off, only branches from the tree are broken off and we are grafted in to replace those branches. God does not have to start over with a new tree to replace a branch that is not bearing fruit.

Let's try another passage - Eph 2:11-22

Fellow citizens of the salvation of “all Israel”, with its two parts mentioned in Romans 11:25-32.

Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; (Ephesians 2:19)​

Israel continues with those who did follow Jesus, because “part” of Israel hardened does not lead God to abandon Israel. God only needed one man, Noah, to continue His remnant from the beginning with Adam and Eve. Both parts of Israel, those that remain in the house of God that excepted Jesus and those “other sheep”, the part of Israel that hardened and will remain hardened until all the gentiles have come in when Jesus returns and forgives them, will be fellow citizens of “all Israel”. God is saving “all Israel” and not just part of Israel with Christianity with a separate existence until His return of His “other sheep” with Judaism.

Yes we were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel. There is nothing in this whole passage indicating gentile converts now participate in the commonwealth of Israel (become Israeli).

It is clearest in Romans 11:25-32, where God sees two parts of Israel that He will unite, saving “all Israel”: the hardened part called Judaism and the part that excepted Jesus called Christianity.

Ephesus is no where near Israel. We are no more strangers or foreigners.

The early church with Paul was composed of both Israelites and former gentiles together, but God also sees His “other sheep”, the broken branches that are not from the sheep pen of Jesus, which He also wants to bring, saving “all Israel”.

We're also not citizens of Israel and don't become citizens of Israel. We are fellowcitizens with the saints. Israel is never called saints. In fact if you read the OT, you'll find Israelis were a long way from being saints. The one fold in JN 10:16 isn't Israel. Jesus doesn't say He would bring those of another fold into this (Israel) fold.

That is exactly what God is saying with “all Israel” will be saved in Romans 11:25-32. There is no doubt in context that God is speaking of Christians and our enemies in Judaism, two parts of Israel that remain separate until all the gentiles have come in, but which Jesus will forgive when He returns to save “all Israel”. You assume that God did not succeed with Israel because it continued with few, and most were hardened, but as in the past, God only needed one man, Noah, to continue the remnant line from the beginning to fulfill the promise of the descendent of Adam and Eve that would save us, Jesus.

Acts 15 backs this up in that the gentile converts to Christianity weren't required to follow the law of Moses as some Pharisees demanded v 5. In fact we are told they were subverting the souls of gentiles. Check out the definition of subvert. They were almost successful with my soul. God is good.

We no longer do the shadows that Jesus replaced, like the sacrifices of animals, because we have the reality with Jesus that the shadows pointed to, but the 10 commandments are not shadows, they are the minimum that God demands to demonstrate love for God and love for neighbor, Jesus made them more demanding not only by revealing the act as sin, but also by revealing the thoughts that lead to the act as sin. Anyone who continues the shadows rejects Jesus, but anyone who rejects the ten commandments does not love Jesus and has abused Paul’s “hard to understand” message to defend the “error of the lawless”. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[ace of hearts]

Brother, God’s plan will save “all Israel”. God has not abandoned the part of Israel in His “other sheep” that are faithful to the Old Testament, Judaism, and that are not currently of the house of God in the sheep pen of Jesus with the additional New Testament. Before Jesus, there was also rest with the forgiveness of sin, but it was slow to obtain with animal sacrifices at the earthly temple. It took more time to do what was necessary to get rest with the animals in the earthly temple for the forgiveness of sin. The superior rest we have after Jesus is not equivalent to the Sabbath. The current loop of forgiveness internalized is quicker then the external with the animals allowing us to gain the rest quicker then was possible before. The time from knowing you have sinned to gaining forgiveness with the animals in the earthly temple did not give you quick rest like the immediate rest of the forgiveness that we obtain through the intercession of Jesus as our high priest in the heavenly temple. We no longer have a long wait to experience the rest of forgiveness, it is immediate compared to the old system with the animals, but that rest is different from the Sabbath covenant “forever” that God asks of us as a sign between Him and us “forever”.



God did not fail with Israel, He will save “all Israel”. It says grafted in among the branches that were broken off, other branches replacing a broken off branch from the 12 tribes of Israel to enter through the 12 gates of the new Jerusalem. You will need to be added to one of those tribes to belong, already established in the olive tree of Israel. We feed from the root like the rest of the tree but are not grafted into the root, we replace the broken off branches, the tree was not broken off, only branches from the tree are broken off and we are grafted in to replace those branches. God does not have to start over with a new tree to replace a branch that is not bearing fruit.



Fellow citizens of the salvation of “all Israel”, with its two parts mentioned in Romans 11:25-32.

Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; (Ephesians 2:19)​

Israel continues with those who did follow Jesus, because “part” of Israel hardened does not lead God to abandon Israel. God only needed one man, Noah, to continue His remnant from the beginning with Adam and Eve. Both parts of Israel, those that remain in the house of God that excepted Jesus and those “other sheep”, the part of Israel that hardened and will remain hardened until all the gentiles have come in when Jesus returns and forgives them, will be fellow citizens of “all Israel”. God is saving “all Israel” and not just part of Israel with Christianity with a separate existence until His return of His “other sheep” with Judaism.



It is clearest in Romans 11:25-32, where God sees two parts of Israel that He will unite, saving “all Israel”: the hardened part called Judaism and the part that excepted Jesus called Christianity.



The early church with Paul was composed of both Israelites and former gentiles together, but God also sees His “other sheep”, the broken branches that are not from the sheep pen of Jesus, which He also wants to bring, saving “all Israel”.



That is exactly what God is saying with “all Israel” will be saved in Romans 11:25-32. There is no doubt in context that God is speaking of Christians and our enemies in Judaism, two parts of Israel that remain separate until all the gentiles have come in, but which Jesus will forgive when He returns to save “all Israel”. You assume that God did not succeed with Israel because it continued with few, and most were hardened, but as in the past, God only needed one man, Noah, to continue the remnant line from the beginning to fulfill the promise of the descendent of Adam and Eve that would save us, Jesus.



We no longer do the shadows that Jesus replaced, like the sacrifices of animals, because we have the reality with Jesus that the shadows pointed to, but the 10 commandments are not shadows, they are the minimum that God demands to demonstrate love for God and love for neighbor, Jesus made them more demanding not only by revealing the act as sin, but also by revealing the thoughts that lead to the act as sin. Anyone who continues the shadows rejects Jesus, but anyone who rejects the ten commandments does not love Jesus and has abused Paul’s “hard to understand” message to defend the “error of the lawless”. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

I'm going to let you play by yourself in left field with an empty ball park. I know any discussion with you will be extremely futile. I don't have that kind of time.

 

[guevaraj]

I'm going to let you play by yourself in left field with an empty ball park. I know any discussion with you will be extremely futile. I don't have that kind of time.

Brother, according to Wikipedia it is reported that today over 25 million people worship weekly in Seventh-day Adventist churches worldwide. The church operates in 202 out of 230 countries and areas recognized by the United Nations, making it "probably the most widespread Protestant denomination". United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[ace of hearts]

Brother, according to Wikipedia it is reported that today over 25 million people worship weekly in Seventh-day Adventist churches worldwide. The church operates in 202 out of 230 countries and areas recognized by the United Nations, making it "probably the most widespread Protestant denomination". United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

That is a speck when it comes to religion and has nothing to do with you being correct. No that's not a confession about your theology. Your theology is aberrant. That's why I said you can play left field in an empty ball park by yourself. People are leaving your church even in third world countries faster than they come in.