Do Not Bash Muslims

[Joyousperson]

I'm just curious, how many years of your life have you spent living in majority Muslim regions of the world? How many hours have you spent sitting face to face with a Muslim or in a forum setting disusing the religion of Islam with Muslims?


What about the more than a billion and a half Muslims in the world who would disagree with what you are posting here? What about scholars like Dr. Abu Ameen Bilal Philips who was educated in Saudi Arabia? I have taken courses offered by his online school whose target audience is Muslims.

View attachment 259030

The founder of this school and the professor of those courses is Dr. Bilal Philips, a Sunni Salafi fundamentalist. He was even arrested here in Davao City and banned from returning to the Philippines because of his suspected ties to extremists.

DAVAO CITY: Police and immigration agents on Sunday arrested in this city Canadian Muslim scholar and professor Dr. Abu Ameen Bilal Philips, whom authorities suspect has ties with some Muslim radical extremist groups. Philips, who has been banned from entering the United States and the United Kingdom, was conducting a lecture in a predominantly Muslim village when he was invited for questioning and subsequently held in custody by authorities.

Since countering violent extremism is incorporated into our ministry here, the above is the reason why I enrolled in his courses so that I could have a better understanding of what he teaches since he is popular among many of the Muslims in the communities we work in.

Dr. Philips received his B.A. degree from the Islamic University of Medina and his M.A. in Islamic Theology from the King Saud University in Riyadh, completed his PhD at the University of Wales, St. David's University College. He taught Islamic studies for a decade at an Islamic high school in Riyadh and was an Arabic and Islamic studies teacher in the American University of Dubai for 10 years.

All of the lectures from those courses were given by Dr. Philips, and even he doesn't teach what you are saying on this forum. Quite the opposite actually.

In addition, I have spent much of my life living and working in Muslim majority regions of the world, so my knowledge and experiences with Islam doesn't only come from a western school of thought.


When I copy and past your content into a search engine, one site keeps coming up at the top of the list of results. "AnsweringIslam"

While you do put your own spin into your replies, it's impossible not to see the similarities between your posts in this thread and the content at the answeringislam site.

Do Not Bash Muslims
The Quranic witness to the authority of the Holy Bible

Do Not Bash Muslims
The Qur'an: Grammatical Errors

Even your last post where you discussed Taqiyya reflected some of the material found at this link:
Rebuttal to Shabir Ally: Shabir Ally's Favorite Questions

AnsweringIslam is not an Islamic source. In it's about me section it says "We are Evangelical Christians." Much of the material found on that site comes from well known anti-Islamic propagandists such as David Wood, Bill Warner, etc...

It appears that you have fallen for the misinformation campaign that has been pushed by anti-Islamic propagandists since 9/11.


Here is a response I gave on Taqiyya in another thread:

Taqiyya is a concept used to discredit Muslims and most Muslims have never even heard of it.

The word taqiyya isn't found anywhere in the Qur'an, but here is the definition:

Takiya (taqiyyah, taqiyya); “The principle of dissimulation of one’s religious beliefs in order to avoid persecution or imminent harm, where no useful purpose would be served by publicly affirming them.”

That definition is very specific as to when a lie is permissible.

Below is the ONLY verse found in the Qur'an that suggests that lying is acceptable and even then it is better to choose death rather than to lie as the hadith below it states:

"As for anyone who denies God after having once attained to faith - and this, to be sure, does not apply to one who does it under duress, the while his heart remains true to his faith, but only, to him who willingly opens up his heart to a denial of the truth upon all such falls God's condemnation, and tremendous suffering awaits them" (Qur'an 16:106)

"There is a consensus that whomsoever is forced into apostasy and chooses death has a greater reward than a person who takes the license to deny one's faith under duress, but if a person is being forced to eat pork or drink wine, then they should do that instead of choosing death." (Sahih al-Bukhari)

The following hadiths make it clear that lying is forbidden:

Verily, truthfulness leads to righteousness and righteousness leads to Paradise. A man may speak the truth until he is recorded with Allah as truthful. Verily, lying leads to wickedness and wickedness leads to the Hellfire. A man may tell lies until he is recorded with Allah as a liar. (Sahih al-Bukhari 5743, Sahih Muslim 2607)

"Avoid falsehood, for falsehood leads to wickedness, and wickedness to Hell; and if a man continues to speak falsehood and makes falsehood his object, he will be recorded in God's presence as a great liar. And adhere to the truth, for truth leads to good deeds, and good deeds lead to Paradise. If a man continues to speak the truth and makes truth his object, he will be recorded in God's presence as eminently truthful." (Sunan Abu Dawood vol. 3, no. 4971)

Aisha reported: There was no behavior more hateful to the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, than dishonesty. A man would tell a lie when speaking in the presence of the Prophet and he would not be satisfied until he knew that he had repented. (Sunan al-Tirmidhī)

The following hadith says it is one of the greatest of sins.

"Beware I inform you regarding the greatest of the mortal sins: Associating anything with Allah, disobeying parents and lying!" (Wasaelush Shia)

There you have it plain as day, lying is forbidden in Islam; and only when a Muslim faces harm and persecution and only as a last resort is lying permissible.

There are exceptions where a Muslim can tell a minor lie to keep peace and harmony among others, an example of this would be like if a wife asks her husband if a certain dress makes her look fat, and he answers "no" even when it's obvious that it does. Flat out lying and deceit is not acceptable though.

Your usual accusations is, those [AnsweringIslam and the likes] who do not agree with you are propagandists to be condemned. You cannnot be a bigot on such a matter.
Btw, Bill Warner is not a contributor to AnsweringIslam.
These are really cheap shots and reflect badly on your intellectual dishonesty.

What count is whether the arguments provided by the sites referred or sourced from are sound and supported with evidence directly from the original sources.

If you have the intellectual honesty and integrity, don't simply blabber about the sites, just show proofs where they are wrong with your arguments and evidence.
Now, just show us where they are wrong in any significant sense?

If you were to present Dr. Bilal's arguments supported with the Quranic verses and various supporting from the original Islamic sources, I would never brush his argument as a closet salafist preacher but rather deal with the contents he provided. It would be the same for any one who argue with supporting from the original Islamic sources, i.e. the Quran or Ahadith where relevant.

So don't play childish games anymore. Rather just argue objectively with your own supporting verses to any views you do not agree with.

Note Dr. Bilal in his public appearance and presentation is merely window dressing and thus will not reveal his true intention as a Muslim who must comply with the 6236 verses of the Quran. He has no choice by has to hide his true beliefs [else the FBI will go after him], thus Taqiyya on his part, regardless of whatever his pretensions.

But note I referenced a link where Dr. Bilal Philips agreed suicide bombing by jihadist is an acceptable strategy when used in wars against the non-Muslims.
note:Suicide-general is condemned by Islam.

Similarly lying-in-general is condemned and not permitted in Islam but lying [taqiyya] under circumstances of war with non-Muslims and other circumstances is permitted as a war strategy. The point is Islam is always at war with non-Muslims who are deemed a permanent threat to the religion of Islam because they are disbelievers.

 

[JosephZ]

Your usual accusations is, those [AnsweringIslam and the likes] who do not agree with you are propagandists to be condemned. You cannnot be a bigot on such a matter. These are really cheap shots and reflect badly on your intellectual dishonesty. What count is whether the arguments provided by the sites referred or sourced from are sound and supported with evidence directly from the original sources.

I've explained this to you before. What these websites do is no different than what Islamic extremists do. They intentionally take the Qur'an and other religious texts out of textual and historical context in an effort to deceive people who are ignorant of the teachings of the religion of Islam that the vast majority of the world's Muslims follow. Both the Islamic extremists and anti-Islamic propagandists have the same agendas. They each want to create further division and conflict between Muslims and non-Muslims for their own personal gain. They are both enemies of peace.

It's obvious to those who have any kind of real knowledge of Islam and especially to Muslims that the information found on websites like answeringislam, religionofpeace, acts17apologetics, politicalislam, shoebat, and others are set up to intentionally deceive their audience.

Btw, Bill Warner is not a contributor to AnsweringIslam.

Yes he is. Individual Contributing Authors on Answering Islam

The above explains why you and everyone else who posts on religious forums about Islam being a violent, intolerant religion which is at war with non-Muslims repeat the exact same things. You all are getting the exact same information and material from the same exact same anti-Islamic propagandists. I showed in another thread where every "ex-Muslim" bashing Islam on youtube is somehow connected to David Wood, Pam Geller, David Horowitz, or Robert Spencer. The anti-Islamic propaganda industry is a well funded and tightly knit community of Islam bashers.

But note I referenced a link where Dr. Bilal Philips agreed suicide bombing by jihadist is an acceptable strategy when used in wars against the non-Muslims.
note:Suicide-general is condemned by Islam.

Yes, I remember the reference you gave. Here is his quote again from that article you linked to.

Philips added that the suicide bomber had made a military decision based on the defences of the enemy. He says: "The [enemy] is either too heavily armed, or they don't have the type of equipment that can deal with it, so the only other option they have is to try to get some people amongst them and then explode the charges that they have to try to destroy the equipment and to save the lives of their comrades.

"So this is not really considered to be suicide in the true sense. This is a military action and human lives are sacrificed in that military action. This is really the bottom line for it and that's how we should look at it."

What he is describing is attacks against military targets, not civilians. This tactic has been used by many societies over the course of history during warfare. The Japanese had kamikaze pilots and manned suicide torpedoes. There have been German, Dutch, Chinese, and Korean suicide bombers during wartime among others. Dr. Philips teaches that suicide attacks against civilians is forbidden in Islam.

 

[JosephZ]

You claimed 99% of Muslims know "what is Islam" correctly in accordance to Allah's message. Your previous arguments do not support your 99% or 90% thesis at all.

Note I have demonstrated your 99% claim that all Muslims are well verse and understood the Quran thoroughly is wrong, i.e. very wrong.

You obviously misunderstood what the 99% figure was relating to. Below are several quotes where I used this figure.

Since greater than 99% of the world's Muslims aren't participating in violent jihad, shouldn't that tell you something?

Since only around 1/10th of 1% of those proclaiming to be Muslims are participating in violent jihad and 99% of Muslims are living in peace with their neighbors,

If 99% of the worlds Muslims are living in peace and harmony with their neighbors, once again, what leads you to believe Islam is the problem? Like I have said, Muslims don't interpret the Qur'an the way you do. I have also shown you in other threads where research has shown that the more religious a person is, the less prone they are to becoming involved in violent extremism.

when someone says that Islam teaches that the quickest pathway to salvation comes from martyrdom, aka being killed in Jihad, or that Islam teaches violence. How is that possible if more than 99% of the more than 1.6 billion Muslims in the world aren't engaging in violent jihad? If Islam really taught things like that, common sense should tell us that if less than 1% of the followers of that religion are engaging in violence, then this must not be what Islam teaches.

If Islam teaches violence, why are more than 99% of the more than 1.6 billion Muslims in the world non-violent and living in harmony with their neighbors?

how can you explain why more than 99% of Muslims aren't involved in terrorism or violence towards others?

Throughout history until today Muslims have rejected the doctrine of sects like Wahhabism which call for hatred and animosity towards non-Muslims. It's not possible that these hard-line fundamentalist teachings represent true Islam if greater than 99% of the world's Muslims aren't practicing it. To say that the less than 1% of those claiming to be Muslims who practice violent jihad and carry out attacks on innocent civilians are correct and represent the true teachings of Islam isn't even worth consideration.

Here is where the 90% came from:

If greater than 90% of the world's Muslims are interpreting the Qur'an and the teachings of Muhammad differently than you are along with every legitimate school that offers courses in Islamic Studies and Religious History, then it's a pretty safe bet that you are wrong in what you believe about Islam.

What you have been describing in every thread you have started is Wahhabism. This sect is found within the Salafi movement that fewer than 90% of the world's Muslims follow. There is no disputing that the extremist interpretation of Islam you are describing is rejected by greater than 90% of the world's Muslims today and always have been.

I am aware you claimed to have studied the Quran personally and from external sources. But from you have posted, you have not dug into the depth of Islam, i.e. the 6236 verses of the Quran. To go a bit deeper I would suggest you read this very famous book from a thematic perspective, Ethico-Religious Concepts in the Qur'an

Here is a link to where you can read this book in it's entirety: http://traditionalhikma.com/wp-cont...Concepts-in-the-Quran-by-Toshihiko-Izutsu.pdf

I think it's you that should read it as it paints an entirely different picture of Islam than what you have been sharing on this forum.

 

[setst777]

I'm just curious, how many years of your life have you spent living in majority Muslim regions of the world? How many hours have you spent sitting face to face with a Muslim or in a forum setting discussing the religion of Islam with Muslims?

Hi Joseph,

You write:
<<
The founder of this school and the professor of those courses is Dr. Bilal Philips, a Sunni Salafi fundamentalist.
>>

setst RE: I feel so bad for you, because Dr. Bibal has been fooling the west using Taqyah, while supporting terrorism and global Jihad.

Dr. Bibal Philips repeatedly calls himself a Sunni Salafi moderate.

Bilal Philips - Wikipedia
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips, (born Dennis Bradley Philips, 1946)

Because of what his critics call "extremist views",[7] Philips has been banned from entering the United Kingdom,[8] Australia,[9] Denmark[10] and Kenya,[11] banned from re-entering Germany,[12] ordered to leave Bangladesh,[13] and arrested in the Philippines[14] for "inciting and recruiting people to conduct terrorist activities

Also see: Canadian preacher linked to terrorists found in Davao

Bilal Philips

* Philips has been named by the United States as an unindicted co-conspirator in the 1993 World Trade Center bombings but has never been charged.

* Philips has been banned or deported from numerous countries for his extremist views, including Australia, Bangladesh, Denmark, Kenya, Germany, the Philippines, the United Kingdom, and the United States.

* Philips was named as an unindicted co-conspirator in the foiled 1993 plot to bomb the Holland and Lincoln tunnels that span New York and New Jersey, two of the six targets that were part of the New York City landmark bomb plot, a follow-up operation to the World Trade Center attack.

* According to Clement Rodney Hampton-El (a.k.a. Abdullah Rashid)—one of the men convicted of the World Trade Center bombings—Philips gave him the name of soldiers who were about to leave the U.S. military and who might be receptive to aiding jihadists in Bosnia.

* Philips had also agreed to provide Hampton-El with funding to recruit non-American Muslims and send them to Bosnia. However, some of the recruits decided to attack the United States rather than travel to Bosnia, which led to the failed plot to bomb the Holland and Lincoln tunnels.

* Philips is a committed purveyor of homophobic ideas, describing gay sex as “evil,” “dangerous,” “deviant behavior,” responsible for the break-up of the nuclear family unit, and deserving of the death penalty.

* AIDS, according to Philips, is divinely ordained retribution visited upon gay people for their “deviation.”

* In the United Kingdom, Philips is specifically banned for condoning suicide bombing, claiming “when you look at the mind of the suicide bomber, it’s a different intention altogether, the enemy is either too heavily armed, or they don’t have the type of equipment that can deal with it.”

* Philips regularly airs his views on networks such as Peace TV, a 24-hour Islamic satellite TV channel run by extremist preacher Zakir Naik, and through his social media channels on Facebook, youtube and Twitter.

* By his own account, Philips was instrumental in a mass conversion of American troops to Islam during the Gulf War while stationed in Saudi Arabia during 1992. As a member of the Royal Saudi Air Force’s religious unit, which had persuaded American officers to allow seminars introducing troops to Arab culture, Philips claims to have converted 3,000 U.S. soldiers, averaging 20 per day.

You write:
<<
While you do put your own spin into your replies, it's impossible not to see the similarities between your posts in this thread and the content at the answeringislam site.
>>

Setst RE: I am vaguely familiar with answeringislam, although I have viewed debates between Muslims and David Wood. I thank God that we have faithful men and women who stand up against the dark cloud of Islam, alerting us to the dangers from Islam's own sources.

I study many sources. And that is a good thing. Most of my knowledge of Islam comes directly from their own sources: The Qur’an, the Sahih Hadith, the Sira, and Islamic scholars and statements by imams, which are all easily found online.

In contrast, your knowledge of Islam has obviously been filtered through Muslim taqyah by other Muslims trying to convince you that Muslim is Peace. Sorry you had to be one of those who are duped by their propaganda.

All you really have to do is look in the news in what is happening in the Middle East to see the true colors of Islam.

All you really have to do is read the news about what Muslims are trying to do in the countries the emigrate to: Sweden, Germany, France, USA, India and various Asian countries

Wake up!

You write:
<<
Takiya (taqiyyah, taqiyya); “The principle of dissimulation of one’s religious beliefs in order to avoid persecution or imminent harm, where no useful purpose would be served by publicly affirming them.”
>>

Setst RE: While you give a quote with no reference, I gave many quotes straight from the Qur'an and the Hadith and Sira regarding the use of Taqyah. Sorry to say you are being duped and mislead by false definitions and information.

You write:
<<
"Avoid falsehood, for falsehood leads to wickedness, and wickedness to Hell; and if a man continues to speak falsehood and makes falsehood his object, he will be recorded in God's presence as a great liar. And adhere to the truth, for truth leads to good deeds, and good deeds lead to Paradise. If a man continues to speak the truth and makes truth his object, he will be recorded in God's presence as eminently truthful." (Sunan Abu Dawood vol. 3, no. 4971)

Aisha reported: There was no behavior more hateful to the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, than dishonesty.
>>

Setst: You obviously have been completely mislead by Muslims using taqyah on you. Muslims never had to so easy lying to naive people like you.

You show Islamic sources where lying is forbidden, but forget to inform us that lying is condoned in Taqyah. So, you are being just like the Muslims who brainwashed you using Taqyah on you. You are now inadvertently or knowingly working as their ambassador to promote the Islamic invasion we are no witnessing in the West.

Taqyah is permitted lying by Allah and His Messenger.

Sahih Bukhari 84:64-65
Speaking from a position of power at the time, Ali confirms that lying is permitted in order to deceive an "enemy."

Oh my, the Messenger of Allah hated dishonesty so much that he allowed it in order to assassinate and kill those who do not submit to him or give him what he wants.

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle called: "War is deceit". Sahih Bukhari 4:52:268, See Also Sahih Bukhari 4:52:269

Narrated Jabir: The Prophet said, "Who is ready to kill Ka'b bin Ashraf (i.e. a Jew)." Muhammad bin Maslama replied, "Do you like me to kill him?" The Prophet replied in the affirmative. Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say what I like." The Prophet replied, "I do (i.e. allow you)."
Sahih Bukhari 4:52:271

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it." Then Muhammad bin Maslama went to Kab and said, "That man (i.e. Muhammad demands Sadaqa (i.e. Zakat) from us, and he has troubled us, and I have come to borrow something from you." On that, Kab said, "By Allah, you will get tired of him!"... Sahih Bukhari 5:59:369

Muhammad bin Maslamah said, ‘O Messenger, we shall have to tell lies.' ‘Say what you like,' Muhammad replied. ‘You are absolved, free to say whatever you must.'
Ishaq:365, See Also Al-Tabari, Vol. 7, p. 94

Hajjaj said to the Apostle, ‘I have money scattered among the Meccan merchants, so give me permission to go and get it.' Having got Muhammad's permission, he said, ‘I must tell lies.' The Apostle said, ‘Tell them.'
Ishaq: 519

"Sahih Bukhari 50:369" About the murder of a poet, Ka'b bin al-Ashraf, at Muhammad's insistence. The men who volunteered for the assassination used dishonesty to gain Ka'b's trust, pretending that they had turned against Muhammad. This drew the victim out of his fortress, whereupon he was brutally slaughtered.

Reliance of the Traveler (page. 746 - point r8.2 under "PERMISSIBLE LYING" ) - "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible (N:i.e. when the purpose of lying is to circumvent someone who is preventing one from doing something permissible), and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory... it is religiously precautionary in all cases to employ words that give a misleading impression... "One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie."

Tuqyah is especially essential when Muslims are in foreign lands

Qur'an 17:64
"Seduce them with your voice and assault them with your cavalry and your infantry, be a partner in their wealth and their children and give them promises, but what satan promises them, is only a delusion"

The following is a quote from Ibn al-Tabari explaining Muslim use of "Tuqyah" to further the cause of Islam while a minority in a foreign land. . .

"If you [Muslims] are under their [infidels/unbelievers] authority, fearing for yourselves, behave loyally to them, with your tongue, while harboring inner animosity for them. … Allah has forbidden believers from being friendly or on intimate terms with the infidels in place of believers — except when infidels are above them [in authority]. In such a scenario, let them act friendly towards them"
[Quoted from: Jami' al-Bayan 'an ta'wil ayi'l-Qur'an al-Ma'ruf: Tafsir at-Tabari
Abu Ja'far Muhammad at-Tabari, Beirut: Dar Ihya' at-Turath al-'Arabi, 2001 (vol. 3, p. 267)]

Al-Bukhari [the most respected of the six most credible Sahih Hadith collection] recorded that Abu Ad-Darda' said, "We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them."
Sahih al-Bukhari 3030, Volume 4, Book 52 Hadith 269

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "War is deceit."

Another way Muslims promote this peaceful deception is:

1) quoting what appears to be peaceful parts of Qur'anic verses out of context.
2) quoting abrogated verses - those Qur'anic verses that Allah replaces with another.

Everyone has heard this famous peaceful sounding quote...

Quran 2:256 'there is no compulsion in religion'

Muslims are deceiving foreign nations and leaders by quoting this verse out of context to hide its true meaning.

Here is the REAL context of Quran 2:256. . .

Quran 2:256 There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower.

The context is that you cannot force someone to believe, it must be grasped. So if you do believe (to worship and believe in the Muslim God, Allah), then all is well with you. That is all that is meant here.

To gain further context, all one has to do is read the rest of Chapter 2 to get the CONTEXT.

For instance,

What happens if faith in Muhammad is not grasped?

In the very same Chapter 2, Muslims are commanded to "fight with non-believers until there is no more unbelief or heresy, and religion is only for Allah." (Qur'an 2:193)

Notice the context. This is all in Qur'an chapter 2.

So, when Muslims quote to you "there is no compulsion in religion" they are mis-represnting and lying about the true meaning in order to deceive you into letting your defenses down. The only true religion for Muslims is (Islam). If you are not a believer in Islam, IF you fail to grasp the Islamic Faith, you are the enemy to be fought and conquered (Qur'an 2:193).

Quran 8:
12 I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes."
13. This is because they defied and disobeyed Allah and His Messenger. And whoever defies and disobeys Allah and His Messenger, then verily, Allah is Severe in punishment.
14. This is the torment, so taste it, and surely for the disbelievers is the torment of the Fire.

Quran 8:
38. Say to those who have disbelieved, if they cease (from disbelief) their past will be forgiven. But if they return (thereto), then the examples of those (punished) before them have already preceded (as a warning).
39. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.

Notice in the above Qur'anic verse the reasons for terrorizing and attacking non-Muslims.

So you, Joeseph, have totally been duped by a false understanding of lying in Islam.

Even “truces” of Islamic nations with non-Islamic nations are a form of taqyah until the Muslim nation has the power to destroy them.

Reliance of The Traveler
Truces
o9.16 Umar Barakat explains that truces are only ever temporary, for the benefit of the Muslim war effort, since it is “a matter of the gravest consequence because it entails the non-performance of jihad”.

Sharia clearly teaches how Muslims in foreign lands are to gain the upper hand over the enemy while a minority in that country (which is EXACTLY what we see taking place now)…

Reliance of The Traveler (Sharia Law)
q5.0 The Act Of Censuring (others)
q5.1 The censure has various degrees of severity:
q5.3 Explaining That Something Is Wrong
q5.4 Forbidding The Act Verbally
q5.5 Censuring With Harsh Words
q5.6 Righting The Wrong By Hand “such as by breaking musical instruments”
q5.7 Intimidation by making realistic threats
q5.8 Assault “to directly hit or kick the person”
q5.9 Force of arms “when one is unable to censure the act by oneself and requires the armed assistance of others”.

You may have noticed how often Muslims threaten death to those who appose Islam, even in foreign lands. This is part of Sharia Law.

(Reliance of the Traveler pp. 597—98, o8.7)
Death penalty for insulting Islam, the Quran, or Muhammad, or Allah. . .

(1) Reviling Allah or his Messenger;
(2) being sarcastic about 'Allah's name, His command, His interdiction, His promise, or His threat';
(3) denying any verse of the Quran or 'anything which by scholarly consensus belongs to it, or to add a verse that does not belong to it';
(4) holding that 'any of Allah's messengers or prophets are liars, or to deny their being sent';
(5) reviling the religion of Islam;
(6) being sarcastic about any ruling of the Sacred Law;
(7) denying that Allah intended 'the Prophet's message . . . to be the religion followed by the entire world.'

Joseph, wake up. Stop supporting the enemy.

 

[Joyousperson]

I've explained this to you before. What these websites do is no different than what Islamic extremists do. They intentionally take the Qur'an and other religious texts out of textual and historical context in an effort to deceive people who are ignorant of the teachings of the religion of Islam that the vast majority of the world's Muslims follow. Both the Islamic extremists and anti-Islamic propagandists have the same agendas. They each want to create further division and conflict between Muslims and non-Muslims for their own personal gain. They are both enemies of peace.

It's obvious to those who have any kind of real knowledge of Islam and especially to Muslims that the information found on websites like answeringislam, religionofpeace, acts17apologetics, politicalislam, shoebat, and others are set up to intentionally deceive their audience.


Yes he is. Individual Contributing Authors on Answering Islam

OK, corrected re Bill Warner.

As I have emphasized MANY TIMES, you cannot make sweeping statements like the above, i.e. that they are making false claims of Islam.

You need to have intellectual honesty and argue on a case to case basis.
Show me where sites like answeringislam, religionofpeace, acts17apologetics, politicalislam, shoebat has quoted the wrong references from the Quran or Ahadith to support their arguments.

Note this qualification in the AnsweringIslam site;

If you find any factual mistakes [whether misprints or a false representation of doctrines] on these pages, or things that are worded in an offensive way, contact us, we would like to correct that. See our site policies.​

The above explains why you and everyone else who posts on religious forums about Islam being a violent, intolerant religion which is at war with non-Muslims repeat the exact same things. You all are getting the exact same information and material from the same exact same anti-Islamic propagandists. I showed in another thread where every "ex-Muslim" bashing Islam on youtube is somehow connected to David Wood, Pam Geller, David Horowitz, or Robert Spencer. The anti-Islamic propaganda industry is a well funded and tightly knit community of Islam bashers.

Being humans there are bound to be some zealousness and errors, but I noted the above [bolded] you listed always support their views from the original sources of the ideology of Islam, i.e. the Quran, Ahadith, various tafsir.
What they have been saying is like 1+1=2, the Earth orbit the Sun, and the likes. Show me why they are wrong in the majority of cases?

I noted Pam Geller, David Horowitz and some are not very rigoristic in supporting their views, and I know where their limitations are. Thus I would not make any reference to their views.

Yes, I remember the reference you gave. Here is his quote again from that article you linked to.

Philips added that the suicide bomber had made a military decision based on the defences of the enemy. He says: "The [enemy] is either too heavily armed, or they don't have the type of equipment that can deal with it, so the only other option they have is to try to get some people amongst them and then explode the charges that they have to try to destroy the equipment and to save the lives of their comrades.

"So this is not really considered to be suicide in the true sense. This is a military action and human lives are sacrificed in that military action. This is really the bottom line for it and that's how we should look at it."

What he is describing is attacks against military targets, not civilians. This tactic has been used by many societies over the course of history during warfare. The Japanese had kamikaze pilots and manned suicide torpedoes. There have been German, Dutch, Chinese, and Korean suicide bombers during wartime among others. Dr. Philips teaches that suicide attacks against civilians is forbidden in Islam.

Note what you listed above where suicide bombing had been used in war are driven purely political motives not religious motives.
The difference is the suicide bombing tactics by Muslims is sanctioned by a God, i.e. Allah.

A religion should never permit nor condone any form of violence, wars, suicide bombings and the likes.
The reason is because SOME evil prone Muslims will tilt such violence and suicide mission as a religious duty to please God for their eschatological [salvation] desperation.
The dilemma and problem is no humans on Earth can judge and insist they are wrong because only Allah can judge.
The existence of such a stalemate and dilemma in Islam reflect it is a false religion [you agreed] and is an inherently malignant, evil and violent religion.

Note I have stated, the context of the whole Quran is such that disbelievers are a threat to the religion of Islam and as such Islam and Muslims are always in a state of war with disbelievers.
In this case as agreed by Dr. Bilar Philip, the enemy in war [e.g. USA and its allies] are too heavily armed thus the justifications to use suicide bombings even on the enemies who are civilians.

WHO ARE YOU, me and others to judge and insist they are wrong.
All you can insist in spinning with the 'historical' excuses which is very flimsy.

 

[Joyousperson]

You obviously misunderstood what the 99% figure was relating to. Below are several quotes where I used this figure.

Here is where the 90% came from:

You are using the 99% or 90% of what the masses are doing as what Islam really is.
I disagree with the above.

My point is 'what is Islam' is represented by the 6236 verses in the Quran sent by Allah.

Here is a link to where you can read this book in it's entirety: http://traditionalhikma.com/wp-cont...Concepts-in-the-Quran-by-Toshihiko-Izutsu.pdf

I think it's you that should read it as it paints an entirely different picture of Islam than what you have been sharing on this forum.

I have read the whole book many times. Have you?

Izutsu did not critique Islam as severely as myself, else he would have been condemned by Muslims. But he did discuss the various concepts especially the us versus them, i.e. Muslim versus non-Muslims where the non-Muslims are viewed in very negative light.

Note the chapter on

-The Pessimistic Conception of Earthly Life
-the inner structure of the concept of Kufr
-the semantics field of kufr​

From the above the concept of the kufr, i.e. the disbelievers are given significant attention as a threat to Islam and Muslims, and the zealous would want to eliminate them where possible.

As I had pointed out, Islam do not give much consideration to this Earthly life, thus the potential for SOME evil prones Muslims [from a pool of 320 million] to use WMDs [biological or nuclear]. Those evil prone Muslims would not give a damn if they exterminate the whole human species, since they are assured of a place in paradise no matter what happen on Earth [they deemed as useless].

 

[JosephZ]

I study many sources. And that is a good thing. Most of my knowledge of Islam comes directly from their own sources: The Qur’an, the Sahih Hadith, the Sira, and Islamic scholars and statements by imams, which are all easily found online.

I too have read the same Islamic sources, including all of those you presented in your last post, and have come to a completely different understanding of Islam than you.

In contrast, your knowledge of Islam has obviously been filtered through Muslim taqyah by other Muslims trying to convince you that Muslim is Peace. Sorry you had to be one of those who are duped by their propaganda.

I have taken many courses in Islamic Studies from various sources over the past 30+ years from Christian, Islamic, and secular schools of thought. In fact, the very first course I took was while in the military and was provided by the Assemblies of God Theological Seminary. Not one of these schools taught what you believe Islam teaches. Your position on Islam is not what is taught in schools that offer courses in Islamic Studies. More importantly, Muslims do not share your point of view in regards to their religion and reject your views. Is it really worth running the risk of giving false testimony against your Muslim neighbors by ignoring what they tell us about the religion they follow?

All you really have to do is look in the news in what is happening in the Middle East to see the true colors of Islam.

Which one of these charts do you believe best explains the current situation in the Middle East?

Now let's look at the top countries where violent extremism and terrorism takes place. What to each of these countries have in common?

All you really have to do is read the news about what Muslims are trying to do in the countries the emigrate to: Sweden, Germany, France, USA, India and various Asian countries

Can you give some examples so I will know how to best respond to this?

Setst RE: While you give a quote with no reference, I gave many quotes straight from the Qur'an and the Hadith and Sira regarding the use of Taqyah. Sorry to say you are being duped and mislead by false definitions and information.

The verses and the quotes from the hadiths I provided were pretty self explanatory.

Joseph, wake up. Stop supporting the enemy.

It's pains me to see Christians spreading anti-Islamic propaganda. Why Christians would choose to believe the extremist narrative of Islam that only a very small majority of Muslims follow to the peaceful and tolerant version of Islam that nearly all of the world's Muslims follow is beyond me. The primary reason I respond to threads like this one is to educate my brothers and sisters in Christ about Islam and what Muslims believe so they will not fear this religion and those who follow it, in hopes that it will encourage more Christians to share their faith with the Muslims who live in their communities.

I'm going to recommend the same advice to you that I have to the OP in another thread since you are having a difficult time distinguishing between the teachings of Islamic extremism and the religion of Islam. There's no substitute to learning about what Muslims believe and what Islam teaches than going to actual Muslims. Since you didn't answer my question on how many years of your life have you spent living in majority Muslim regions of the world and hours have you spent sitting face to face with a Muslim or in a forum setting discussing the religion of Islam with Muslims, I'm going to assume that means none. Another alternative is to take some courses in Islamic studies offered from legitimate sources. As a Christian missionary the one I always recommend to those who are considering witnessing to Muslims is this one: The Gospel and Islam - TVSEMINARY Trinity Video Seminary It's free and while it's just an introductory course, it does go into the History of Islam and many other concepts of the religion which will go a long way in dispelling many of the myths and misconceptions that many non-Muslims like yourself have about this religion.

 

[Joyousperson]

Hi Joseph,

You write:
<<
The founder of this school and the professor of those courses is Dr. Bilal Philips, a Sunni Salafi fundamentalist.
>>

setst RE: I feel so bad for you, because Dr. Bibal has been fooling the west using Taqyah, while supporting terrorism and global Jihad.

Dr. Bibal Philips repeatedly calls himself a Sunni Salafi moderate.

Bilal Philips - Wikipedia
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips, (born Dennis Bradley Philips, 1946)

Because of what his critics call "extremist views",[7] Philips has been banned from entering the United Kingdom,[8] Australia,[9] Denmark[10] and Kenya,[11] banned from re-entering Germany,[12] ordered to leave Bangladesh,[13] and arrested in the Philippines[14] for "inciting and recruiting people to conduct terrorist activities

Also see: Canadian preacher linked to terrorists found in Davao

Bilal Philips

* Philips has been named by the United States as an unindicted co-conspirator in the 1993 World Trade Center bombings but has never been charged.

* Philips has been banned or deported from numerous countries for his extremist views, including Australia, Bangladesh, Denmark, Kenya, Germany, the Philippines, the United Kingdom, and the United States.

* Philips was named as an unindicted co-conspirator in the foiled 1993 plot to bomb the Holland and Lincoln tunnels that span New York and New Jersey, two of the six targets that were part of the New York City landmark bomb plot, a follow-up operation to the World Trade Center attack.

* According to Clement Rodney Hampton-El (a.k.a. Abdullah Rashid)—one of the men convicted of the World Trade Center bombings—Philips gave him the name of soldiers who were about to leave the U.S. military and who might be receptive to aiding jihadists in Bosnia.

* Philips had also agreed to provide Hampton-El with funding to recruit non-American Muslims and send them to Bosnia. However, some of the recruits decided to attack the United States rather than travel to Bosnia, which led to the failed plot to bomb the Holland and Lincoln tunnels.

* Philips is a committed purveyor of homophobic ideas, describing gay sex as “evil,” “dangerous,” “deviant behavior,” responsible for the break-up of the nuclear family unit, and deserving of the death penalty.

* AIDS, according to Philips, is divinely ordained retribution visited upon gay people for their “deviation.”

* In the United Kingdom, Philips is specifically banned for condoning suicide bombing, claiming “when you look at the mind of the suicide bomber, it’s a different intention altogether, the enemy is either too heavily armed, or they don’t have the type of equipment that can deal with it.”

* Philips regularly airs his views on networks such as Peace TV, a 24-hour Islamic satellite TV channel run by extremist preacher Zakir Naik, and through his social media channels on Facebook, youtube and Twitter.

* By his own account, Philips was instrumental in a mass conversion of American troops to Islam during the Gulf War while stationed in Saudi Arabia during 1992. As a member of the Royal Saudi Air Force’s religious unit, which had persuaded American officers to allow seminars introducing troops to Arab culture, Philips claims to have converted 3,000 U.S. soldiers, averaging 20 per day.

You write:
<<
While you do put your own spin into your replies, it's impossible not to see the similarities between your posts in this thread and the content at the answeringislam site.
>>

Setst RE: I am vaguely familiar with answeringislam, although I have viewed debates between Muslims and David Wood. I thank God that we have faithful men and women who stand up against the dark cloud of Islam, alerting us to the dangers from Islam's own sources.

I study many sources. And that is a good thing. Most of my knowledge of Islam comes directly from their own sources: The Qur’an, the Sahih Hadith, the Sira, and Islamic scholars and statements by imams, which are all easily found online.

In contrast, your knowledge of Islam has obviously been filtered through Muslim taqyah by other Muslims trying to convince you that Muslim is Peace. Sorry you had to be one of those who are duped by their propaganda.

All you really have to do is look in the news in what is happening in the Middle East to see the true colors of Islam.

All you really have to do is read the news about what Muslims are trying to do in the countries the emigrate to: Sweden, Germany, France, USA, India and various Asian countries

Wake up!

You write:
<<
Takiya (taqiyyah, taqiyya); “The principle of dissimulation of one’s religious beliefs in order to avoid persecution or imminent harm, where no useful purpose would be served by publicly affirming them.”
>>

Setst RE: While you give a quote with no reference, I gave many quotes straight from the Qur'an and the Hadith and Sira regarding the use of Taqyah. Sorry to say you are being duped and mislead by false definitions and information.

You write:
<<
"Avoid falsehood, for falsehood leads to wickedness, and wickedness to Hell; and if a man continues to speak falsehood and makes falsehood his object, he will be recorded in God's presence as a great liar. And adhere to the truth, for truth leads to good deeds, and good deeds lead to Paradise. If a man continues to speak the truth and makes truth his object, he will be recorded in God's presence as eminently truthful." (Sunan Abu Dawood vol. 3, no. 4971)

Aisha reported: There was no behavior more hateful to the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, than dishonesty.
>>

Setst: You obviously have been completely mislead by Muslims using taqyah on you. Muslims never had to so easy lying to naive people like you.

You show Islamic sources where lying is forbidden, but forget to inform us that lying is condoned in Taqyah. So, you are being just like the Muslims who brainwashed you using Taqyah on you. You are now inadvertently or knowingly working as their ambassador to promote the Islamic invasion we are no witnessing in the West.

Taqyah is permitted lying by Allah and His Messenger.

Sahih Bukhari 84:64-65
Speaking from a position of power at the time, Ali confirms that lying is permitted in order to deceive an "enemy."

Oh my, the Messenger of Allah hated dishonesty so much that he allowed it in order to assassinate and kill those who do not submit to him or give him what he wants.

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle called: "War is deceit". Sahih Bukhari 4:52:268, See Also Sahih Bukhari 4:52:269

Narrated Jabir: The Prophet said, "Who is ready to kill Ka'b bin Ashraf (i.e. a Jew)." Muhammad bin Maslama replied, "Do you like me to kill him?" The Prophet replied in the affirmative. Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say what I like." The Prophet replied, "I do (i.e. allow you)."
Sahih Bukhari 4:52:271

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it." Then Muhammad bin Maslama went to Kab and said, "That man (i.e. Muhammad demands Sadaqa (i.e. Zakat) from us, and he has troubled us, and I have come to borrow something from you." On that, Kab said, "By Allah, you will get tired of him!"... Sahih Bukhari 5:59:369

Muhammad bin Maslamah said, ‘O Messenger, we shall have to tell lies.' ‘Say what you like,' Muhammad replied. ‘You are absolved, free to say whatever you must.'
Ishaq:365, See Also Al-Tabari, Vol. 7, p. 94

Hajjaj said to the Apostle, ‘I have money scattered among the Meccan merchants, so give me permission to go and get it.' Having got Muhammad's permission, he said, ‘I must tell lies.' The Apostle said, ‘Tell them.'
Ishaq: 519

"Sahih Bukhari 50:369" About the murder of a poet, Ka'b bin al-Ashraf, at Muhammad's insistence. The men who volunteered for the assassination used dishonesty to gain Ka'b's trust, pretending that they had turned against Muhammad. This drew the victim out of his fortress, whereupon he was brutally slaughtered.

Reliance of the Traveler (page. 746 - point r8.2 under "PERMISSIBLE LYING" ) - "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible (N:i.e. when the purpose of lying is to circumvent someone who is preventing one from doing something permissible), and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory... it is religiously precautionary in all cases to employ words that give a misleading impression... "One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie."

Tuqyah is especially essential when Muslims are in foreign lands

Qur'an 17:64
"Seduce them with your voice and assault them with your cavalry and your infantry, be a partner in their wealth and their children and give them promises, but what satan promises them, is only a delusion"

The following is a quote from Ibn al-Tabari explaining Muslim use of "Tuqyah" to further the cause of Islam while a minority in a foreign land. . .

"If you [Muslims] are under their [infidels/unbelievers] authority, fearing for yourselves, behave loyally to them, with your tongue, while harboring inner animosity for them. … Allah has forbidden believers from being friendly or on intimate terms with the infidels in place of believers — except when infidels are above them [in authority]. In such a scenario, let them act friendly towards them"
[Quoted from: Jami' al-Bayan 'an ta'wil ayi'l-Qur'an al-Ma'ruf: Tafsir at-Tabari
Abu Ja'far Muhammad at-Tabari, Beirut: Dar Ihya' at-Turath al-'Arabi, 2001 (vol. 3, p. 267)]

Al-Bukhari [the most respected of the six most credible Sahih Hadith collection] recorded that Abu Ad-Darda' said, "We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them."
Sahih al-Bukhari 3030, Volume 4, Book 52 Hadith 269

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "War is deceit."

Another way Muslims promote this peaceful deception is:

1) quoting what appears to be peaceful parts of Qur'anic verses out of context.
2) quoting abrogated verses - those Qur'anic verses that Allah replaces with another.

Everyone has heard this famous peaceful sounding quote...

Quran 2:256 'there is no compulsion in religion'

Muslims are deceiving foreign nations and leaders by quoting this verse out of context to hide its true meaning.

Here is the REAL context of Quran 2:256. . .

Quran 2:256 There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower.

The context is that you cannot force someone to believe, it must be grasped. So if you do believe (to worship and believe in the Muslim God, Allah), then all is well with you. That is all that is meant here.

To gain further context, all one has to do is read the rest of Chapter 2 to get the CONTEXT.

For instance,

What happens if faith in Muhammad is not grasped?

In the very same Chapter 2, Muslims are commanded to "fight with non-believers until there is no more unbelief or heresy, and religion is only for Allah." (Qur'an 2:193)

Notice the context. This is all in Qur'an chapter 2.

So, when Muslims quote to you "there is no compulsion in religion" they are mis-represnting and lying about the true meaning in order to deceive you into letting your defenses down. The only true religion for Muslims is (Islam). If you are not a believer in Islam, IF you fail to grasp the Islamic Faith, you are the enemy to be fought and conquered (Qur'an 2:193).

Quran 8:
12 I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes."
13. This is because they defied and disobeyed Allah and His Messenger. And whoever defies and disobeys Allah and His Messenger, then verily, Allah is Severe in punishment.
14. This is the torment, so taste it, and surely for the disbelievers is the torment of the Fire.

Quran 8:
38. Say to those who have disbelieved, if they cease (from disbelief) their past will be forgiven. But if they return (thereto), then the examples of those (punished) before them have already preceded (as a warning).
39. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.

Notice in the above Qur'anic verse the reasons for terrorizing and attacking non-Muslims.

So you, Joeseph, have totally been duped by a false understanding of lying in Islam.

Even “truces” of Islamic nations with non-Islamic nations are a form of taqyah until the Muslim nation has the power to destroy them.

Reliance of The Traveler
Truces
o9.16 Umar Barakat explains that truces are only ever temporary, for the benefit of the Muslim war effort, since it is “a matter of the gravest consequence because it entails the non-performance of jihad”.

Sharia clearly teaches how Muslims in foreign lands are to gain the upper hand over the enemy while a minority in that country (which is EXACTLY what we see taking place now)…

Reliance of The Traveler (Sharia Law)
q5.0 The Act Of Censuring (others)
q5.1 The censure has various degrees of severity:
q5.3 Explaining That Something Is Wrong
q5.4 Forbidding The Act Verbally
q5.5 Censuring With Harsh Words
q5.6 Righting The Wrong By Hand “such as by breaking musical instruments”
q5.7 Intimidation by making realistic threats
q5.8 Assault “to directly hit or kick the person”
q5.9 Force of arms “when one is unable to censure the act by oneself and requires the armed assistance of others”.

You may have noticed how often Muslims threaten death to those who appose Islam, even in foreign lands. This is part of Sharia Law.

(Reliance of the Traveler pp. 597—98, o8.7)
Death penalty for insulting Islam, the Quran, or Muhammad, or Allah. . .

(1) Reviling Allah or his Messenger;
(2) being sarcastic about 'Allah's name, His command, His interdiction, His promise, or His threat';
(3) denying any verse of the Quran or 'anything which by scholarly consensus belongs to it, or to add a verse that does not belong to it';
(4) holding that 'any of Allah's messengers or prophets are liars, or to deny their being sent';
(5) reviling the religion of Islam;
(6) being sarcastic about any ruling of the Sacred Law;
(7) denying that Allah intended 'the Prophet's message . . . to be the religion followed by the entire world.'

Joseph, wake up. Stop supporting the enemy.

Well argued with supporting references from original sources.

JosephZ as usual is waving subjective opinions with very little references to the Quran, Ahadiths, tafsirs from reputable scholars. He is obviously being brainwashed by Dr. Bilar Philips. I suspect he could be a jihadist pretending [Taqiyya of course] to be a Christian Missionary.

 

[Joyousperson]

I too have read the same Islamic sources, including all of those you presented in your last post, and have come to a completely different understanding of Islam than you.

I have taken many courses in Islamic Studies from various sources over the past 30+ years from Christian, Islamic, and secular schools of thought. In fact, the very first course I took was while in the military and was provided by the Assemblies of God Theological Seminary. Not one of these schools taught what you believe Islam teaches. Your position on Islam is not what is taught in schools that offer courses in Islamic Studies. More importantly, Muslims do not share your point of view in regards to their religion and reject your views. Is it really worth running the risk of giving false testimony against your Muslim neighbors by ignoring what they tell us about the religion they follow?


Which one of these charts do you believe best explains the current situation in the Middle East?

View attachment 259068
View attachment 259069

Now let's look at the top countries where violent extremism and terrorism takes place. What to each of these countries have in common?

View attachment 259067


Can you give some examples so I will know how to best respond to this?


The verses and the quotes from the hadiths I provided were pretty self explanatory.


It's pains me to see Christians spreading anti-Islamic propaganda. Why Christians would choose to believe the extremist narrative of Islam that only a very small majority of Muslims follow to the peaceful and tolerant version of Islam that nearly all of the world's Muslims follow is beyond me.

I'm going to recommend the same advice to you that I have to the OP in another thread since you are having a difficult time distinguishing between the teachings of Islamic extremism and the religion of Islam. There's no substitute to learning about what Muslims believe and what Islam teaches than going to actual Muslims. Since you didn't answer my question on how many years of your life have you spent living in majority Muslim regions of the world and hours have you spent sitting face to face with a Muslim or in a forum setting discussing the religion of Islam with Muslims, I'm going to assume that means none. Another alternative is to take some courses in Islamic studies offered from legitimate sources. As a Christian missionary the one I always recommend to those who are considering witnessing to Muslims is this one: The Gospel and Islam - TVSEMINARY Trinity Video Seminary It's free and while it's just an introductory course, it does go into the History of Islam and many other concepts of the religion which will go a long way in dispelling many of the myths and misconceptions that many non-Muslims like yourself have about this religion.

Re your graph and charts, your inference above, that terrorism increased and rose because of the initiation on the war on terror is too shallow and narrow.

The fact is Islam has always been at war with non-Muslims since 1400 years ago as reflected in the ideology of Islam represented by the 6236 verses of the Quran.

The increased in political activities and the war on terror is secondary and an excuse by the evil prone Muslims to carry out their religious duty to please Allah so that their passage of paradise with eternal life can be expedited.

Note I provided this link;
ISIS give 6 hateful reasons why they despise and target Brits
[applicable to all non-Muslims] where IS claimed political interference and foreign policies by non-Muslim countries is secondary, IS.IS stated the following;

"We [Muslims] hate you [non-Muslims], first and foremost, because you are disbelievers;
you reject the oneness of Allah – whether you realize it or not – by making partners for Him in worship, you blaspheme against Him, claiming that He has a son, you fabricate lies against His prophets and messengers, and you indulge in all manner of devilish practices."

It reads:

2. "What’s important to understand here is that although some might argue that your foreign policies are the extent of what drives our hatred,
this particular reason for hating you is secondary, hence the reason we addressed it at the end of the above list.

"The fact is,
even if you were to stop bombing us, imprisoning us, torturing us, vilifying us, and usurping our lands, we would continue to HATE you because our primary reason for hating you will not cease to exist until you embrace Islam."​

As I had argued the above claim is based on the words of Allah in the Quran as represented by the 3400++ verses of evil and violent verses directed at the disbeliever is the most contemptuous mode filled with hatred.
To get a better idea of this concept, read Izutsu's book in the concept of of Kufr.

Btw, WHO ARE YOU, me or others to judge and insist they are wrong?


Note again, this from the horses mouth [critical for you to remember this];

even if you [non-Muslims] were to stop bombing us [Muslims], imprisoning us, torturing us, vilifying us, and usurping our [Muslims'] lands, we [Muslims] would continue to HATE you [non-Muslims] because our [Muslims'] primary reason for hating you [non-Muslims] will not cease to exist until you [non-Muslims] embrace Islam."​

The fundamental root cause is the eschatological impulse, i.e. salvation, where Muslims will do anything as far as Allah permit in the Quran's 6236 verses to gain salvation.

Can you counter the above?
Don't use silly excuse like 'history' but show us critical and significant [not standalone, exceptional, abrogated] verses from the Quran to counter the above.

 

[JosephZ]

You are using the 99% or 90% of what the masses are doing as what Islam really is.
I disagree with the above. My point is 'what is Islam' is represented by the 6236 verses in the Quran sent by Allah.

My point is that the 90% of the world's Muslims who reject the extreme sects of Islam such as Salafi/Wahhabism and the acts of the less than 1% of those who actively participate in violent jihad have access to the exact same 6236 verses in the Quran that you do, yet they know how to put those verses into textual and historical context unlike yourself and come to a different conclusion.

As I had pointed out, Islam do not give much consideration to this Earthly life,

Neither do many other religions.

Those evil prone Muslims would not give a damn if they exterminate the whole human species, since they are assured of a place in paradise no matter what happen on Earth [they deemed as useless].

You will find this to be true in certain segments of the Christian Evangelical community as well. They support destructive foreign policy in the Middle East and the state Israel, not because they believe it has a right to exist as most people do, but in hopes of bringing about Armageddon and judgement day. They feel that they have earned salvation and are ready for God's judgement and wrath to be poured out on all the sinners and unbelievers in the world. They too could care less about what happens to the world and those who may find themselves on the receiving end of the bombs that reign down on innocent civilians in the Middle East, because in their minds, they are living in the last days and eagerly await God's wrath on those who disbelieve and the return of Christ because they also believe they are assured of a place in Heaven no matter what happens. Rather than use terrorism as a weapon, although there have been some cases where they have, they choose to use the voting booth and elect officials who they believe are most likely to fulfill prophesy and bring about the end times.

I have read the whole book many times. Have you?

I read several chapters yesterday, not the whole book. I also read some of his other material and read his biography.

Izutsu did not critique Islam as severely as myself, else he would have been condemned by Muslims.

He wasn't condemned by Muslims because he came to the same conclusions as they do about their religion.

As I had argued the above claim is based on the words of Allah in the Quran as represented by the 3400++ verses of evil and violent verses directed at the disbeliever is the most contemptuous mode filled with hatred.
To get a better idea of this concept, read Izutsu's book in the concept of of Kufr.

Why is it that Toshihiko Izutsu, who was fluent in Arabic, translated the Qur'an from Arabic to Japanese, did much of his research in the Middle East, especially Iran, and did a rigorous linguistic study of traditional metaphysical texts of Islam came to a different conclusion about this religion than you have from your "research?" For sure Izutsu's research and life experiences with Islam and Muslims far exceeded that of either you or I. You would think that he of all people would have brought attention the evil and violent side of this religion if this was to be found in the context of the Qur'an, yet he was fond of Islam and saw it as not only a positive contribution to the Arab world, but for all of mankind especially in its teachings of coexistence, morals and ethics.

Once again the only ones teaching the evil and violent narrative of Islam are the extremists and anti-Islamic propagandists.

Note I provided this link;
ISIS give 6 hateful reasons why they despise and target Brits... Note again, this from the horses mouth [critical for you to remember this];

even if you [non-Muslims] were to stop bombing us [Muslims], imprisoning us, torturing us, vilifying us, and usurping our [Muslims'] lands, we [Muslims] would continue to HATE you [non-Muslims] because our [Muslims'] primary reason for hating you [non-Muslims] will not cease to exist until you [non-Muslims] embrace Islam."

ISIS is a terrorist group, they and other groups like them make up less than 1/10th of 1% of the world's Muslim population. Why do you accept what terrorists say and disregard what the vast majority of the world's Muslims say?

Can you counter the above?
Don't use silly excuse like 'history' but show us critical and significant [not standalone, exceptional, abrogated] verses from the Quran to counter the above.

Once again, go back and read the other threads where I have responded to all of what you are saying here. I gave plenty of references from the Qur'an and other Islamic texts along with providing sources from legitimate sources and experts. There is no point in repeating everything here since you will only reject it anyway as you did in the other threads.

 

[Joyousperson]

My point is that the 90% of the world's Muslims who reject the extreme sects of Islam such as Salafi/Wahhabism and the acts of the less than 1% of those who actively participate in violent jihad have access to the exact same 6236 verses in the Quran that you do, yet they [1.44 billion] know how to put those verses into textual and historical context unlike yourself and come to a different conclusion.

Don't insult yourself with the above obvious lie.
You are saying the 1.44, 90% of Muslims all over the world have read the whole Quran in their own language I understood the Quran to put whatever verses in the historical context.

It is common knowledge a large percentage of Muslims around the world live in slums, war zones, and severe poverty. They may have prayed with Arabic verses, but it is not likely they have studied the Quran in Arabic or in their own language to understand the Quran thoroughly like the Arabic scholars and other experts.

Just look around the Muslim community around you in Southern Philippines. Are you sure, all the Muslims >12 years old study the Quran regularly to understand the meaning of all the 6236 verses.

Don't insult your intelligence with the above shoddy claims.

The fact is 90% of Muslims do not understand the Quran's 6236 verses in their own language to infer those verses are historical which is wrong.
Most of the 90% of Muslims would accept those evil and violent verses as necessary for self-defense and just wars, which is also in a way wrong.

Neither do many other religions.

Deflections again.
Other religions and their God do not condone the killing of non-believers like Islam permitting Muslims to kill non-Muslims under conditions of fasadin re 5:33 and all other evil and violent verses.

You will note in Izutsu's book, he explored the concept of 'fasad' which is very wide ranging from 1 degrees to 100 degrees.

See page 213 where idolatory is regarding as corruption of the land. 7:124-7.

You will find this to be true in certain segments of the Christian Evangelical community as well. They support destructive foreign policy in the Middle East and the state Israel, not because they believe it has a right to exist as most people do, but in hopes of bringing about Armageddon and judgement day. They feel that they have earned salvation and are ready for God's judgement and wrath to be poured out on all the sinners and unbelievers in the world. They too could care less about what happens to the world and those who may find themselves on the receiving end of the bombs that reign down on innocent civilians in the Middle East, because in their minds, they are living in the last days and eagerly await God's wrath on those who disbelieve and the return of Christ because they also believe they are assured of a place in Heaven no matter what happens. Rather than use terrorism as a weapon, although there have been some cases where they have, they choose to use the voting booth and elect officials who they believe are most likely to fulfill prophesy and bring about the end times.

Deflection again.

Point is Islam-proper posed a threat to humanity in its potential when extremists resort to use WMDs in the name of Islam.

I have argued Christianity-proper do not permit killing of any other human being, i.e. via the overall pacifist maxim of 'love all - even enemies'.
There is nothing to stop sects from emerging claiming to belong to Christianity, but they are not in essence, Christianity.

He wasn't condemned by Muslims because he came to the same conclusions as they do about their religion.

Note Izutsu did not claim in any absolute sense Islam is a religion of peace.

Why is it that Toshihiko Izutsu, who was fluent in Arabic, translated the Qur'an from Arabic to Japanese, did much of his research in the Middle East, especially Iran, and did a rigorous linguistic study of traditional metaphysical texts of Islam came to a different conclusion about this religion than you have from your "research?" For sure Izutsu's research and life experiences with Islam and Muslims far exceeded that of either you or I. You would think that he of all people would have brought attention the evil and violent side of this religion if this was to be found in the context of the Qur'an, yet he was fond of Islam and saw it as not only a positive contribution to the Arab world, but for all of mankind especially in its teachings of coexistence, morals and ethics.

I would not agree Izutsu's research far exceeded mine in terms of the overall meaning of Islam in the context of humanity. Note his research is confined to the ethico and semantics perspective only. There is nothing new in Izutsu research except explaining the concepts in various perspective which I find useful as a part of my overall research.

Once again the only ones teaching the evil and violent narrative of Islam are the extremists and anti-Islamic propagandists.

You are insulting your own intelligence by waving subjective opinions rather than present sound arguments supporting with evidence.

ISIS is a terrorist group, they and other groups like them make up less than 1/10th of 1% of the world's Muslim population. Why do you accept what terrorists say and disregard what the vast majority of the world's Muslims say?

Point what they claimed is reflected in the 6236 verses in the Quran -the words of Allah.

Note you are insulting your own intelligence again by relying of the ad populum fallacy which I had reminded you many times.

Once again, go back and read the other threads where I have responded to all of what you are saying here. I gave plenty of references from the Qur'an and other Islamic texts along with providing sources from legitimate sources and experts. There is no point in repeating everything here since you will only reject it anyway as you did in the other threads.

Yes, you did in some cases but not on the critical issues.

Note the relevant concepts [see Izutsu] here are 'kufr' [disbelievers] and fasad [corruption of the land - idolatry] and whatever is a threat to Islam must be eliminated or suppressed.
The people of IS are bull's eyes on this.

 

[setst777]

I too have read the same Islamic sources, including all of those you presented in your last post, and have come to a completely different understanding of Islam than you.

Hi Joseph,

You write:
<<
I too have read the same Islamic sources, including all of those you presented in your last post, and have come to a completely different understanding of Islam than you.
>>

setst RE: Obviously... You can look straight at the verses quoted and read them, and then believe just the opposite of what it states. Good examples can be gleaned from my post that you responded to.

For example:

Your claim: Muhammad would never condone dishonesty.
FACT: Muhammad used dishonestly commonly to assassinate others and to gain victory in battle against peaceful groups. And even proclaimed that "war is deceit."

You write:
<<
I have taken many courses in Islamic Studies from various sources over the past 30+ years from Christian, Islamic, and secular schools of thought.
>>

setst RE: I don't believe you. There is no way that in 30 years of study from so many sources that you did not even know that Taqyah involves lying and deception, and that Taqyah is being used in the West by Muslims for that purpose.

So, NO you are attempting to deceive others, but the Islamic sources unveil you for who you really are - a deceiver.

Then you show charts... I have no idea where they came from. One thing I do know, however, that the US and other nations have fought Muslims because of their horrific inhumanity, and most times at the request of poor Muslim nations who are being threatened and attacked by other Muslim nations.

The aggressor is not the US. If the US had its way, we never want to be involved in another war. However, Islam is terrorizing the world through groups like ISIS and Iran. And other Muslims nations want them stopped. So because the US helps, does not mean we now are the aggressor.

You write:
<<
It's pains me to see Christians spreading anti-Islamic propaganda.
>>

setst RE: Well, you just stated in the beginning that you spent 30 years studying in Christian schools. Your conclusion:

"Not one of these schools taught what you believe Islam teaches."

Then you say Christians are spreading anti-Islamic propaganda. You lie so much you don't even remember one lie from the next.

setst wrote:
↑
All you really have to do is read the news about what Muslims are trying to do in the countries the emigrate to: Sweden, Germany, France, USA, India and various Asian countries

You respond:
<<
Can you give some examples so I will know how to best respond to this?
>>

setst RE: You mean, you have no idea what's going on those those countries that Muslims are migrating too??? I mean it is all over the news for several years now - raping, vandalism, thefts, sharia no go zones, threats and demonstrations, huge increase of terrorism, and Muslims now demanding their own sharia territory (states) in the foreign countries they now live. All this and more has been on the news repeatedly.

Sharia are regulations that Muslims are to live by as demonstrated or commanded by Muhammad in the Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira.

Sharia is more than just laws governing every aspect of a Muslims life, but also involves:

• Military Law including terrorism
• Jihad against unbelievers
• Hudud

Hudud reserved for the most serious crimes in Islam (violations of the “rights of God”), including

• theft,
• illicit sexual relations,
• drinking intoxicants,
• apostasy (renunciation of the faith),
• hypocrisy,
• unbelief.

The Islamic view of Sharia to this day divides the world into two basic groups:

1) the Dar al-Islam (“the realm of Submission”, that is, Islamic lands ruled by a caliph under Shari’ah)

2) all the rest of the earth: the Dar al-Harb–which means, “the realm of war” - the infidels (unbelievers), hypocrites and apostates.

Fortunately, Sharia law is not executed in full anywhere today because it is so harsh and in some respects plain evil that no Muslim nation wants it fully implemented.

Sharia Law includes

• killing apostates,
• killing and punishing hypocrites
• Islamic jihad against unbelievers,
• killing homosexuals,
• child marriage - even before puberty,
• stoning women to death for adultery,
• enslaving non-Muslims during jihad,
• using slave women for sex and selling them.
• Muslim men would go to heaven and meet virgins after killing infidels.
• Non-Muslim men could face the death penalty for marrying a Muslim female.
• Denying equality of education for women,
• persecuting other Muslims sects as apostates,
• stoning people to death for adultery,
• whipping those involved in fornication.

Terror

Sharia includes Terror - the terrorizing of persons, groups and nations in order to promote Islam

“Allahu akbar, in Jihad against unbelievers, is the popular battle cry of Islamic jihadists as they commit mass murder. But the actual meaning is “Allah is greater,” meaning Allah Is Greater Than Your God or Government.

‘Allahu Akbar’ is the aggressive declaration that Allah and Islam are dominant over every other form of government, religion, law or ethic, which is why Islamic jihadists in the midst of killing infidels so often shout it.

Qur’an 9:73 O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed.

Qur’an 17:16-17 When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet sin. So that Allah’s word is proven true against them, then we destroy them utterly.

Sharia includes Terrorism against all who deny Islam

Qur’an 21:11 How many were the populations we utterly destroyed because of their sins, setting up in their place other peoples. Our terror came unto them.

Qur’an 3:151 I shall cast terror (Asad) into the hearts of those who are bent on denying the truth. We shall cast dread in return for their ascribing divinity, side by side with God, to other beings - [something] for which He has never bestowed any warrant from on high (lam yunazzil); [expresses a continuity in time for terrorism.] and their goal is the fire - and how evil that abode of evildoers!

Sahih Bukhari
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).
Sahih Bukhari 4:52:220

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "I have been given the keys of eloquent speech and given victory with awe (terror cast into the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping last night, the keys of the treasures of the earth were brought to me till they were put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle left (this world) and now you people are carrying those treasures from place to place.
Sahih Bukhari 9:87:127

Abu Huraira reported that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon hlmg) said: I have been given superiority over the other prophets in six respects: I have been given words which are concise but comprehensive in meaning; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies): spoils have been made lawful to me: the earth has been made for me clean and a place of worship; I have been sent to all mankind and the line of prophets is closed with me.
Sahih Muslim 4:1062

Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I have been commissioned with words which are concise but comprehensive in meaning; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies): and while I was asleep I was brought the keys of the treasures of the earth which were placed in my hand. And Abfi Huraira added: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) has left (for his heavenly home) and you are now busy in getting them.
Sahih Muslim 4:1063

Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I have been helped by terror (in the heart of the enemy); I have been given words which are concise but comprehensive in meaning; and while I was asleep I was brought the keys of the treasures of the earth which were placed in my hand.
Sahih Muslim 4:1066

Hammam b. Munabbih reported: That is what Abu Huraira reported to us from the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and he narrated (some) ahadith one of which is that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies) and I have been given words which are concise but comprehensive in meaning.
Sahih Muslim 4:1067

Sira from Ibn Ishaq

If you come upon them, deal so forcibly as to terrify those who would follow, that they may be warned. Make a severe example of them by terrorizing Allah’s enemies.
Ishaq:326

Allah said, ‘No Prophet before Muhammad took booty from his enemy nor prisoners for ransom.’ Muhammad said, ‘I was made victorious with terror. The earth was made a place for me to clean. I was given the most powerful words. Booty was made lawful for me. I was given the power to intercede. These five privileges were awarded to no prophet before me.’
Ishaq:326

Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’
Ishaq:327

When the Apostle looked down on Khaybar he told his Companions, ‘O Allah, Lord of the Devils and what into error they throw, and Lord of the winds and what they winnow, we ask Thee for the booty of this town and its people. Forward in the name of Allah.’ He used to say this of every town he raided.
Ishaq:510

When the Apostle descends on your land none of your people will be left when he leaves.
Ishaq:588

Al Tabari

After the Messenger had finished with the Khaybar Jews, Allah cast terror into the hearts of the Jews in Fadak when they received news of what Allah had brought upon Khaybar. Fadak became the exclusive property of Allah’s Messenger.
Al-Tabari, Vol. 8, p. 129

We have been dealt a situation from which there is no escape. You have seen what Muhammad has done. Arabs have submitted to him and we do not have the strength to fight. You know that no herd is safe from him. And no one even dares go outside for fear of being terrorized.
Al-Tabari, Vol. 9, p. 42

Al-Bukhaari (4557) narrated that Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “ ‘You (true believers in Islamic Monotheism, and real followers of Prophet Muhammad and his Sunnah) are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind’ [Qur’an Aal- Imraan 3:110 – interpretation of the meaning].” He said: “You are the best (i.e., the most beneficial) of people for mankind, you bring them in the chains that are around their necks until they enter Islam.”

Can people be brought in chains except in the case of jihad??

Fiqh al-Da’wah by Sayyid Qutb, 217-222.
It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (12/14):
Islam spread by means of proof and evidence to those who listened to the message and responded to it, and it spread by means of force and the sword to those who were stubborn and arrogant, until they were overwhelmed and became no longer stubborn, and submitted to that reality.

Was Islam spread by the sword?

Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid, Islam Q&A, Fatwa No. 4308

Muhammad on Murder
Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’
Ishaq:327

The Jews were made to come down, and Allah’s Messenger imprisoned them. Then the Prophet went out into the marketplace of Medina, and he had trenches dug in it. He sent for the Jewish men and had them beheaded in those trenches. They were brought out to him in batches. They numbered 800 to 900 boys and men.
Ishaq:464

Muhammad, and Islam, Have a Divine Right to Conquer Others

These cities were conquered in the time of Umar, Uthman, and others, Muslims used to say, ‘Conquer for yourselves whatever seems good to you; for by Allah you have conquered no city but that Muhammad was given its keys beforehand.‘
Al-Tabari, Vol. 8, p. 13

Quran 8:
12 I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes."
13. This is because they defied and disobeyed Allah and His Messenger. And whoever defies and disobeys Allah and His Messenger, then verily, Allah is Severe in punishment.
14. This is the torment, so taste it, and surely for the disbelievers is the torment of the Fire.

Quran 8:
38. Say to those who have disbelieved, if they cease (from disbelief) their past will be forgiven. But if they return (thereto), then the examples of those (punished) before them have already preceded (as a warning).
39. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.

What has been expressed is the evil side of SHARIA that you refuse to look at.

 

[JosephZ]

You are saying the 1.44, 90% of Muslims all over the world have read the whole Quran in their own language I understood the Quran to put whatever verses in the historical context.

That's not what I'm saying at all.

It is common knowledge a large percentage of Muslims around the world live in slums, war zones, and severe poverty. They may have prayed with Arabic verses, but it is not likely they have studied the Quran in Arabic or in their own language to understand the Quran thoroughly like the Arabic scholars and other experts.

Just look around the Muslim community around you in Southern Philippines. Are you sure, all the Muslims >12 years old study the Quran regularly to understand the meaning of all the 6236 verses.

The fact is 90% of Muslims do not understand the Quran's 6236 verses in their own language to infer those verses are historical which is wrong. Most of the 90% of Muslims would accept those evil and violent verses as necessary for self-defense and just wars, which is also in a way wrong.

It's not the scriptures of the three Abrahamic religions that determine if a person is a Jew, Christian, or a Muslim, it's faith. I would venture to say that most Christians have never read the Bible thoroughly and countless millions have never read any of the Bible for themselves due to some of the reasons you gave above along with other impairments such as illiteracy and blindness. Despite this, they would be no less a Christian than the person who has read the Bible from cover to cover many times over. Most followers of the Abrahamic religions learn of their teachings through oral communication via rabbis, priests, pastors, clerics, imams, missionaries and others sharing the same faith.

Other religions and their God do not condone the killing of non-believers like Islam permitting Muslims to kill non-Muslims under conditions of fasadin re 5:33 and all other evil and violent verses.

Islam doesn't condone the killing on non-believers either. Your interpretation if fesadin is different than that which is taught in Islam.

I have argued Christianity-proper do not permit killing of any other human being, i.e. via the overall pacifist maxim of 'love all - even enemies'.

I showed you where this is also true of Islam, but you rejected my explanation. If you were correct with your way of believing then 99% of the world's Muslims wouldn't be living in peace with their neighbors. The fact that they are destroys pretty much everything you have said since joining this forum.

Point is Islam-proper posed a threat to humanity in its potential when extremists resort to use WMDs in the name of Islam.

Islamic extremists are no greater threat than any other extremist ideology when it comes to the potential use of WMDs. For example, in the US there have been several plots by right wing extremists in recent years where WMDs were planned to be deployed on the public. I have linked to several studies in the other threads that have shown that Islamic extremists aren't carrying out acts of terrorism to please Allah or to reap rewards in paradise as you claim.

Note Izutsu did not claim in any absolute sense Islam is a religion of peace.

In essence he did since he states that Islam brought an end to much of the tribal feudalism in the Arabian peninsula and introduced moral and ethical approaches to conflict.

I would not agree Izutsu's research far exceeded mine in terms of the overall meaning of Islam in the context of humanity.

Really? Izutsu was fluent in Arabic and literally wrote the Qur'an in his native language after analyzing every single word of it's content. He also lived and worked among Muslims in the Middle East. By being an outsider to both the Islamic world and the west, his approach to Islam and his research probably gave the most unbiased and unprejudiced picture of this religion than any other researcher in history.

 

[JosephZ]

You can look straight at the verses quoted and read them, and then believe just the opposite of what it states. Good examples can be gleaned from my post that you responded to.

The reason I come to a different conclusion when reading the same verses you do is because I know how to put them in their proper textual and historical context. You are failing to to this. I could take verses out of context from the Bible and make them say the complete opposite of their intent if I wanted to. This is very easy to do and is exactly what religious extremists do.

I don't believe you. There is no way that in 30 years of study from so many sources that you did not even know that Taqyah involves lying and deception, and that Taqyah is being used in the West by Muslims for that purpose.

So, NO you are attempting to deceive others, but the Islamic sources unveil you for who you really are - a deceiver.

I gave you a detailed explanation of taqiyya based on my knowledge of Islam as well as shared a video from a Muslim perspective on the subject. It's up to you what you choose to believe, but when you say "you did not even know that Taqyah involves lying and deception, and that Taqyah is being used in the West by Muslims for that purpose," it proves that your knowledge and understanding of Islam comes directly from western anti-Islamic propagandists, because those are the only sources that give that description of taqiyya.

Then you show charts... I have no idea where they came from.

The data for those charts came from the Global Terrorism Database hosted by the National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism

Well, you just stated in the beginning that you spent 30 years studying in Christian schools. Your conclusion:

"Not one of these schools taught what you believe Islam teaches."

Then you say Christians are spreading anti-Islamic propaganda. You lie so much you don't even remember one lie from the next.

What I said is not a lie. None of the schools provided by Christian sources that I have taken have taught what you are saying here about Islam. I gave you a link to where you can take an online course for yourself. Here it is again The Gospel and Islam - TVSEMINARY Trinity Video Seminary

The lecturer is Dr. David Shenk. He has a PhD in Religious Studies from New York University and teaches courses in Islam and Eastern Religions. He was born in Tanzania. Lived for ten years in Somalia and lectured in comparative religion and church history at Kenyatta University, Nairobi, Kenya for six years and has spent time working in several other Islamic countries.

Below are some of the resources you will have access to and a course outline:

Textbook #1: A Muslim and A Christian in Dialogue
Textbook #2 for the course: Journeys
Encyclopedia Of Islam.pdf
Concise Encyclopedia Islam.pdf
The New Cambridge History of Islam Volume 1

STUDY WEEK 1
Early Theological Formation in the Arabian Background
VIDEO 3.1.The Christian Context.
VIDEO 3.2. The Jewish Context.
VIDEO 3.3. The Jahiliyya and the Hanif Contexts.

STUDY WEEK 2
VIDEO 4.1. The Muslim Community (Ummah). Part 1.
VIDEO 4.2. The Muslim Community (Ummah). Part 2.

STUDY WEEK 3
Muslim Theology and Praxis
VIDEO 5.1. The Five Pillars of Muslim Theology (Iman).
VIDEO 5.2. Presenting the Gospel to Muslim.
VIDEO 5.3. The Five Pillars of Muslim Praxis (Ihsan).
VIDEO 5.4. The Mission of Islam to the World

STUDY WEEK 4
VIDEO 6. Adam and Eve
VIDEO 7. Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac

STUDY WEEK 5
VIDEO 8.1. The Qur'an and Jesus.
VIDEO 8.2. The Qur'an and Muhammad.
VIDEO 8.3. Is Muhammad the Seal of the Prophets?

STUDY WEEK 6
VIDEO 9.1. Understanding the Qur'an.
VIDEO 9.2. The Arabic Qur'an.

STUDY WEEK 7
VIDEO 10.1. Tanzil and Incarnation. Part 1.
VIDEO 10.2. Tanzil and Incarnation. Part 2.

STUDY WEEK 8
VIDEO 11.2 Migration of Muhammad from Mecca to Medina.
VIDEO 11.2. Jesus's Journey to the Cross.
VIDEO 11.3. The Significance of the Cross.

STUDY WEEK 9
VIDEO 12.1. The Muslim Ummah in Medina.
VIDEO 12.2. The Church in Jerusalem.
VIDEO 13. Tawhid and Trinity

STUDY WEEK 10
VIDEO 14. The Hajj and the Eucharist.
VIDEO 15.1. Shari'a is Muslim Law. Part 1.
VIDEO 15.2. Shari'a is Muslim Law. Part 2.

STUDY WEEK 11
VIDEO 16. The Shi'a or Shi'ite Muslims.
VIDEO 17. Sufi Mystics.
VIDEO 18. Folk and Secularist Islam

STUDY WEEK 12
VIDEO 19. Principles for Ministry Among Muslims
VIDEO 20. An Open Door (Revelation 3:7-12)

There's a lot of information there and the course will take you several weeks to complete. It took me a little over two months because of my work schedule. I always recommend this class to Christians who are looking into witnessing to Muslims. It covers a lot of topics and is a very good introductory course on Islam, it's teachings, and what Muslims believe. I sincerely hope that you will consider taking this course because I feel it would be very beneficial to you.

You are also free to enroll in courses offered by the Assemblies of God Theological Seminary on Islamic Studies which I also have taken in the past, but they will not be free and you will have to physically attend the classes.

When I mentioned Christians that are spreading anti-Islamic propaganda, I was speaking of those like yourself who go on forums like this and parrot the material they find on anti-Islamic propaganda sites. This is counterproductive not only to countering violent extremism, but more importantly to reaching the Muslim world with the gospel as it creates further division between Christians and Muslims and damages our personal witness to Christ.

You mean, you have no idea what's going on those those countries that Muslims are migrating too??? I mean it is all over the news for several years now - raping, vandalism, thefts, sharia no go zones, threats and demonstrations, huge increase of terrorism, and Muslims now demanding their own sharia territory (states) in the foreign countries they now live. All this and more has been on the news repeatedly.

I was looking for specific examples so I can get a better understanding of the background and drivers of the individual crimes. Usually they have nothing at all to do with religion and more to do with cultural or social issues.

Sharia is more than just laws governing every aspect of a Muslims life, but also involves:

• Military Law including terrorism
• Jihad against unbelievers
• Hudud

Hudud reserved for the most serious crimes in Islam (violations of the “rights of God”), including

• theft,
• illicit sexual relations,
• drinking intoxicants,
• apostasy (renunciation of the faith),
• hypocrisy,
• unbelief.

The Islamic view of Sharia to this day divides the world into two basic groups:

1) the Dar al-Islam (“the realm of Submission”, that is, Islamic lands ruled by a caliph under Shari’ah)

2) all the rest of the earth: the Dar al-Harb–which means, “the realm of war” - the infidels (unbelievers), hypocrites and apostates.

Fortunately, Sharia law is not executed in full anywhere today because it is so harsh and in some respects plain evil that no Muslim nation wants it fully implemented.

Sharia Law includes

• killing apostates,
• killing and punishing hypocrites
• Islamic jihad against unbelievers,
• killing homosexuals,
• child marriage - even before puberty,
• stoning women to death for adultery,
• enslaving non-Muslims during jihad,
• using slave women for sex and selling them.
• Muslim men would go to heaven and meet virgins after killing infidels.
• Non-Muslim men could face the death penalty for marrying a Muslim female.
• Denying equality of education for women,
• persecuting other Muslims sects as apostates,
• stoning people to death for adultery,
• whipping those involved in fornication.

“Allahu akbar, in Jihad against unbelievers, is the popular battle cry of Islamic jihadists as they commit mass murder. But the actual meaning is “Allah is greater,” meaning Allah Is Greater Than Your God or Government. ‘Allahu Akbar’ is the aggressive declaration that Allah and Islam are dominant over every other form of government, religion, law or ethic, which is why Islamic jihadists in the midst of killing infidels so often shout it.

What you have described above comes from the teachings of an Islamic sect commonly referred to as Wahhabism, not the religion of Islam that the vast majority of the world's Muslims follow. I went into great detail about this in the other thread with the same title as this one.

 

[setst777]

The reason I come to a different conclusion when reading the same verses you do is because I know how to put them in their proper textual and historical context. You are failing to to this. I could take verses out of context from the Bible and make them say the complete opposite of their intent if I wanted to. This is very easy to do and is exactly what religious extremists do.

I gave you a detailed explanation of taqiyya based on my knowledge of Islam as well as shared a video from a Muslim perspective on the subject. It's up to you what you choose to believe, but when you say "you did not even know that Taqyah involves lying and deception, and that Taqyah is being used in the West by Muslims for that purpose," it proves that your knowledge and understanding of Islam comes directly from western anti-Islamic propagandists, because those are the only sources that give that description of taqiyya.

The data for those charts came from the Global Terrorism Database hosted by the National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism

What I said is not a lie. None of the schools provided by Christian sources that I have taken have taught what you are saying here about Islam. I gave you a link to where you can take an online course for yourself. Here it is again The Gospel and Islam - TVSEMINARY Trinity Video Seminary

The lecturer is Dr. David Shenk. He has a PhD in Religious Studies from New York University and teaches courses in Islam and Eastern Religions. He was born in Tanzania. Lived for ten years in Somalia and lectured in comparative religion and church history at Kenyatta University, Nairobi, Kenya for six years and has spent time working in several other Islamic countries.

Below are some of the resources you will have access to and a course outline:

Textbook #1: A Muslim and A Christian in Dialogue
Textbook #2 for the course: Journeys
Encyclopedia Of Islam.pdf
Concise Encyclopedia Islam.pdf
The New Cambridge History of Islam Volume 1

STUDY WEEK 1
Early Theological Formation in the Arabian Background
VIDEO 3.1.The Christian Context.
VIDEO 3.2. The Jewish Context.
VIDEO 3.3. The Jahiliyya and the Hanif Contexts.

STUDY WEEK 2
VIDEO 4.1. The Muslim Community (Ummah). Part 1.
VIDEO 4.2. The Muslim Community (Ummah). Part 2.

STUDY WEEK 3
Muslim Theology and Praxis
VIDEO 5.1. The Five Pillars of Muslim Theology (Iman).
VIDEO 5.2. Presenting the Gospel to Muslim.
VIDEO 5.3. The Five Pillars of Muslim Praxis (Ihsan).
VIDEO 5.4. The Mission of Islam to the World

STUDY WEEK 4
VIDEO 6. Adam and Eve
VIDEO 7. Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac

STUDY WEEK 5
VIDEO 8.1. The Qur'an and Jesus.
VIDEO 8.2. The Qur'an and Muhammad.
VIDEO 8.3. Is Muhammad the Seal of the Prophets?

STUDY WEEK 6
VIDEO 9.1. Understanding the Qur'an.
VIDEO 9.2. The Arabic Qur'an.

STUDY WEEK 7
VIDEO 10.1. Tanzil and Incarnation. Part 1.
VIDEO 10.2. Tanzil and Incarnation. Part 2.

STUDY WEEK 8
VIDEO 11.2 Migration of Muhammad from Mecca to Medina.
VIDEO 11.2. Jesus's Journey to the Cross.
VIDEO 11.3. The Significance of the Cross.

STUDY WEEK 9
VIDEO 12.1. The Muslim Ummah in Medina.
VIDEO 12.2. The Church in Jerusalem.
VIDEO 13. Tawhid and Trinity

STUDY WEEK 10
VIDEO 14. The Hajj and the Eucharist.
VIDEO 15.1. Shari'a is Muslim Law. Part 1.
VIDEO 15.2. Shari'a is Muslim Law. Part 2.

STUDY WEEK 11
VIDEO 16. The Shi'a or Shi'ite Muslims.
VIDEO 17. Sufi Mystics.
VIDEO 18. Folk and Secularist Islam

STUDY WEEK 12
VIDEO 19. Principles for Ministry Among Muslims
VIDEO 20. An Open Door (Revelation 3:7-12)

There's a lot of information there and the course will take you several weeks to complete. It took me a little over two months because of my work schedule. I always recommend this class to Christians who are looking into witnessing to Muslims. It covers a lot of topics and is a very good introductory course on Islam, it's teachings, and what Muslims believe. I sincerely hope that you will consider taking this course because I feel it would be very beneficial to you.

You are also free to enroll in courses offered by the Assemblies of God Theological Seminary on Islamic Studies which I also have taken in the past, but they will not be free and you will have to physically attend the classes.

When I mentioned Christians that are spreading anti-Islamic propaganda, I was speaking of those like yourself who go on forums like this and parrot the material they find on anti-Islamic propaganda sites. This is counterproductive not only to countering violent extremism, but more importantly to reaching the Muslim world with the gospel as it creates further division between Christians and Muslims and damages our personal witness to Christ.

I was looking for specific examples so I can get a better understanding of the background and drivers of the individual crimes. Usually they have nothing at all to do with religion and more to do with cultural or social issues.

What you have described above comes from the teachings of an Islamic sect commonly referred to as Wahhabism, not the religion of Islam that the vast majority of the world's Muslims follow. I went into great detail about this in the other thread with the same title as this one.

Hi Joseph,

So you studied for 30 years, and even studied the beliefs of Sunni and Shia Muslims from the Encyclopedias, and yet you say you have come across and found none of the things I brought up. You will see only what you want to see.

The courses you mentioned do not take 30 years to complete. You said it took you six months. So in 30 years of study, you never came across any of the Islamic quotes I gave you, and their context, from the Qur'an, Hadith, Sira, Sharia textbook, and their scholars??? You have never studies Sunni sharia law from their own sacred books?

You state you do not believe like I do regarding all the quotes I gave from Islam's own sacred sources because you believe they are quoted out of context; yet, I gave you the Qur'anic quotes along with the most respected Hadith and the Sira, and also the most respected Tafsir to fully explain those Qur'anic verses.

No matter what you think, you cannot explain away hundreds Qur'an verses, Hadith, Sira and Tafsir revealing that Islam is at war with all unbelievers until the whole world is under Sharia.

Sharia is founded on the commands, sayings, teachings and life of Muhammad. What I gave you as "Sharia" was backed up by the many quotes I gave you from Islam's own sources. There can be no other Sharia, because to deny any command, saying, teaching or example from Muhammad is to deny being a Muslim. Such are hypocrites.

Regarding David Shenk,

The goal of his books is how to be friends with Muslims, with no detailed information about what they believe or how they disagree with Christian doctrine.

David Shenk believes that Christians and Muslims worship the same God.

Interesting, since:

1) Islam denies the Gospel: the crucifixion, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ for the redemption of our sins.

Quran 4:157 And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) ]: 158. But Allah raised him ['Iesa (Jesus)] up (with his body and soul) unto Himself (and he is in the heavens). And Allah is Ever All-Powerful, All-Wise.

2) Islam, although the Qur'an states that Allah's word is eternally existing with him, and states in the Qur'an that Jesus is the Word of Allah in human form, yet still deny that Jesus is eternal, by very nature God - being eternally existing with the Father.

Qur'an 171 The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was a Messenger of Allah and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him (Allah).

How can a mere prophet of God be Allah's Word and a spirit before becoming flesh?

3) Islam denies that God is a father to anyone, literally or spiritually.

4) Islam denies that Jesus is the Son of God.

In all respects, Islam meets the definition of "anti-christ"

1 John 2:22
Such a person is the antichrist — denying the Father and the Son.

So, Joseph, you go on believing your fairy tale while Islam continues to work to conquer the world through deceit, threats, politics, social media, in our schools, through legal channels, and by paying off political leaders, and terrorism in the foreign lands they emigrate to.

 

[JosephZ]

So you studied for 30 years, and even studied the beliefs of Sunni and Shia Muslims from the Encyclopedias, and yet you say you have come across and found none of the things I brought up. You will see only what you want to see.

My knowledge of Islam goes back to the 1980's while in the Military. It was at that time that I had to take courses in Islamic Studies before I was assigned to an Islamic country and when time permits I still take some courses online to continue to increase my knowledge of Islam. I'm currently a missionary, and for more than seven years I have lived in a Muslim village in Davao City on the island of Mindanao. There's not a day that goes by that I am not in the company of Muslims. I have traveled to many predominantly Muslim countries and know Muslims on four continents; many of whom I consider good friends. Even today much of my time here in Mindanao is spent traveling in the predominantly Muslim region of the Sulu Archipelago which is a stronghold of many hard line extremists. Their teachings are rejected by almost every Muslim in that area and most who join their terrorist organizations do it for financial gain and not because of religion or what they preach.

I've witnessed first hand what extremism and terrorism carried out in the name of Islam is capable of doing and the affects it has on people's lives. I can say with confidence that those promoting these actions and those carrying them out do not represent true Islam or the followers of Islam.

I also know that most Muslims are honest, compassionate, and caring people just as most Christians are. And they, like the vast majority of people in this world regardless of their religion, just want to live quiet peaceful lives in harmony with their neighbors. I have served with Muslims in the past while in the Military, and Muslims keep me safe when I travel to places where terrorist flourish even today. I feel just as confident with a Muslim soldier by my side as I do a Christian soldier.

When I took my first course in Islam while in the military in 1986 I really had no say in the matter. It was a requirement. I had no idea at the time that God was preparing me even back then for the mission he has assigned me to today. If someone would have told me back in 1986 that I would someday be a missionary to animists and Muslims serving in the conflict regions of Mindanao, I would have laughed. Oddly enough, after my first course in Islam I found it intriguing enough to continue my studies in that subject off and on for years after, never knowing that someday I would be a missionary serving in Muslim communities. Of course God knew this all along and had been preparing me for my future mission without my knowing. After all, we are "His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." -- Ephesians 2:10

I don't see what I want to see. I see what more than three decades of education, travel, and world experiences have shown me.

The courses you mentioned do not take 30 years to complete.

No they don't. That would be rater ridiculous don't you think?

You said it took you six months.

Actually I said it took me a little over two months to take that one class that I recommended to you.

So in 30 years of study, you never came across any of the Islamic quotes I gave you, and their context, from the Qur'an, Hadith, Sira, Sharia textbook, and their scholars??? You have never studies Sunni sharia law from their own sacred books?

I have read everything you have posted in this thread over the course of my studies related to Islam. More often though, I read them when people want to bash Islam. The Islamic quotes you have shared here are the same ones everyone who bashes Islam uses. I even said this to someone else in another thread. The counter arguments from these individuals are the same tiring arguments that have been used since 9/11 in an attempt to make Islam look like a violent religion and to shine a bad light on those who follow it. They are also using the same handful of verses taken from the Qur'an and sentences from hadiths over and over out of their textual and historical context to try and show this. Just look at any anti-Islamic propaganda site you can find online. Those who you say are refuting me are using the same exact verses and the same content that can be found on those sites.

You state you do not believe like I do regarding all the quotes I gave from Islam's own sacred sources because you believe they are quoted out of context; yet, I gave you the Qur'anic quotes along with the most respected Hadith and the Sira, and also the most respected Tafsir to fully explain those Qur'anic verses.

You are also taking the commentaries out of textual and historical context and sourcing the the hadiths in the same way.

Regarding David Shenk,
The goal of his books is how to be friends with Muslims, with no detailed information about what they believe or how they disagree with Christian doctrine.

I was suggesting you take his class where he goes into more detail about Islam.

In all respects, Islam meets the definition of "anti-christ"
1 John 2:22
Such a person is the antichrist — denying the Father and the Son.

Yes, we are in agreement on this and I have said this before on this forum.

Islam is anti-Christ.

Islam is a false religion and Muhammad is a false prophet. I preach the gospel of Jesus Christ and how "Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.” (1 Corinthians 15:3-4) I'm also willing to take this gospel to wherever God leads me, even if that means putting my life at risk to do so.

As a Christian, I assume that you, like myself, want to see all Muslims come to Christ. Do you honestly believe that bashing the religion of Islam and repeating the same content that can be found on anti-Islamic propaganda sites on a public forum is helping us to achieve that goal?

So, Joseph, you go on believing your fairy tale while Islam continues to work to conquer the world through deceit, threats, politics, social media, in our schools, through legal channels, and by paying off political leaders, and terrorism in the foreign lands they emigrate to.

What you fear is Islamic extremism, it's not the religion of Islam that the vast majority of the world's Muslims follow. Your mind has been filled with the images of 9/11, extensive coverage of terror incidents in the media, and the narrative being pushed by anti-Islamic propagandists who have been exploiting these events. It's understandable why you would believe that these events would be representative of the religion of Islam. Once again, I hope you will consider taking the course I suggested as it will dispel many of the misconceptions you have about this religion and the people who follow it.

 

[setst777]

My knowledge of Islam goes back to the 1980's while in the Military. It was at that time that I had to take courses in Islamic Studies before I was assigned to an Islamic country and when time permits I still take some courses online to continue to increase my knowledge of Islam. I'm currently a missionary, and for more than seven years I have lived in a Muslim village in Davao City on the island of Mindanao. There's not a day that goes by that I am not in the company of Muslims. I have traveled to many predominantly Muslim countries and know Muslims on four continents; many of whom I consider good friends. Even today much of my time here in Mindanao is spent traveling in the predominantly Muslim region of the Sulu Archipelago which is a stronghold of many hard line extremists. Their teachings are rejected by almost every Muslim in that area and most who join their terrorist organizations do it for financial gain and not because of religion or what they preach.

I've witnessed first hand what extremism and terrorism carried out in the name of Islam is capable of doing and the affects it has on people's lives. I can say with confidence that those promoting these actions and those carrying them out do not represent true Islam or the followers of Islam.

I also know that most Muslims are honest, compassionate, and caring people just as most Christians are. And they, like the vast majority of people in this world regardless of their religion, just want to live quiet peaceful lives in harmony with their neighbors. I have served with Muslims in the past while in the Military, and Muslims keep me safe when I travel to places where terrorist flourish even today. I feel just as confident with a Muslim soldier by my side as I do a Christian soldier.

When I took my first course in Islam while in the military in 1986 I really had no say in the matter. It was a requirement. I had no idea at the time that God was preparing me even back then for the mission he has assigned me to today. If someone would have told me back in 1986 that I would someday be a missionary to animists and Muslims serving in the conflict regions of Mindanao, I would have laughed. Oddly enough, after my first course in Islam I found it intriguing enough to continue my studies in that subject off and on for years after, never knowing that someday I would be a missionary serving in Muslim communities. Of course God knew this all along and had been preparing me for my future mission without my knowing. After all, we are "His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." -- Ephesians 2:10

I don't see what I want to see. I see what more than three decades of education, travel, and world experiences have shown me.

No they don't. That would be rater ridiculous don't you think?

Actually I said it took me a little over two months to take that one class that I recommended to you.

I have read everything you have posted in this thread over the course of my studies related to Islam. More often though, I read them when people want to bash Islam. The Islamic quotes you have shared here are the same ones everyone who bashes Islam uses. I even said this to someone else in another thread. The counter arguments from these individuals are the same tiring arguments that have been used since 9/11 in an attempt to make Islam look like a violent religion and to shine a bad light on those who follow it. They are also using the same handful of verses taken from the Qur'an and sentences from hadiths over and over out of their textual and historical context to try and show this. Just look at any anti-Islamic propaganda site you can find online. Those who you say are refuting me are using the same exact verses and the same content that can be found on those sites.

You are also taking the commentaries out of textual and historical context and sourcing the the hadiths in the same way.

I was suggesting you take his class where he goes into more detail about Islam.

Yes, we are in agreement on this and I have said this before on this forum.

As a Christian, I assume that you, like myself, want to see all Muslims come to Christ. Do you honestly believe that bashing the religion of Islam and repeating the same content that can be found on anti-Islamic propaganda sites on a public forum is helping us to achieve that goal?

What you fear is Islamic extremism, it's not the religion of Islam that the vast majority of the world's Muslims follow. Your mind has been filled with the images of 9/11, extensive coverage of terror incidents in the media, and the narrative being pushed by anti-Islamic propagandists who have been exploiting these events. It's understandable why you would believe that these events would be representative of the religion of Islam. Once again, I hope you will consider taking the course I suggested as it will dispel many of the misconceptions you have about this religion and the people who follow it.

Hi Joseph,

Thank you for explaining your history with Muslims and for sharing your faith in contrast to what Islam teaches.

You write:
<<
I've witnessed first hand what extremism and terrorism carried out in the name of Islam is capable of doing and the affects it has on people's lives. I can say with confidence that those promoting these actions and those carrying them out do not represent true Islam or the followers of Islam.
>>

Setst RE: Let me rephrase what you write here…

‘You can say with confidence that the everyday Muslim you encountered does not represent what Islam actually teaches from its own sacred books.’

That is actually the truth of it.

My interest is not how Muslims believe around the world, but what Islamic doctrine actually required to be a Muslim. Why? Islamic doctrine is the foundation for what you call Islamic ‘extremism’ throughout the world.

Sure, go ahead and say it has to do with social issues, but we do not see the huge, and growing, scale of terrorism around the world by those who claim Islam by any other group on earth no matter how hateful.

You write:
<<
I have read everything you have posted in this thread over the course of my studies related to Islam. More often though, I read them when people want to bash Islam. The Islamic quotes you have shared here are the same ones everyone who bashes Islam uses. I even said this to someone else in another thread.
>>

Setst RE: So you have come across this information in your studies? You had wrote earlier that you have not once learned anything in 30 years what I am stating to you about Islam.

"Not one of these schools taught what you believe Islam teaches."

Do you really think the goal of evangelists and apologists who specialize in Islamic doctrine do this just to bash Islam? That is an extremely biased generalization.

I certainly have no desire to bash Islam, but by the wisdom God has given me, I am compelled to unmask Islam for what it is from its own sources so that Muslims can be freed. Unless their faith is challenged, they will likely never turn away.

Joseph, you should really look at those quotes, since they are being quoted so often. There are hundreds of them. Just because the average Muslim you have met does not appear to follow Sharia as found in those Islamic sources does not mean isn’t true.

For you to say you have read and studied the Qur'an, but have not noticed that most of the Qur'an (the Medina verses) is dedicated to Islamic control and conquering of other peoples and nations for Allah is unbelievable to me.

You write:
<<
You are also taking the commentaries out of textual and historical context and sourcing the the hadiths in the same way.
>>

Setst RE: That is another biased generalization. I was very careful to understand the context before quoting those sources. My desire is not to misrepresent any religion or its sources.

You write:
<<
As a Christian, I assume that you, like myself, want to see all Muslims come to Christ. Do you honestly believe that bashing the religion of Islam and repeating the same content that can be found on anti-Islamic propaganda sites on a public forum is helping us to achieve that goal?
>>

Setst RE: I will say this, since you mentioned David Wood… David Wood’s youtube videos alone are causing many Muslims to turn away from Islam and come to Christ. How do I know this? I like reading the comments in the blog section of his videos.

Also the increasing Islamic terrorism taking place has caused many Muslims to leave Islam... See online doing a search.

I suggest you look online for videos of Muslims who have turned away from Islam, and to Christ to get a more complete picture of what it takes for a Muslim to actually be willing to leave Islam.

May I also suggest a really good book by an ex-Muslim turned to Christ called:

SEEKING ALLAH FINDING JESUS
A Devout Muslim Encounters Christianity
By: Nabeel Qureshi
Foreword by Lee Strobel

Dr. Qureshi died last year, or the year before that, of Pancreas cancer. But he was very intelligent and an excellent communicator. He explains his Muslim faith from his own person life growing up.

Note that Mr. Qureshi is one of many Muslims who left Islam because of the ministry of Dr. David Wood.

You write:
<<
What you fear is Islamic extremism, it's not the religion of Islam that the vast majority of the world's Muslims follow.
>>

Setst RE: I know there is no way to hold back what is coming. One day the Islamic nations that surround Israel will actually unite and will rise up against Israel with the help of the West who, by that time, will do its bidding. Before that, Islam will continue to persecute Christians and Jews. Only Christ Jesus will be able to stop Islam at the Battle of Armageddon.

Zechariah 12 (NIV)
Jerusalem’s Enemies to Be Destroyed. . .
12 A prophecy: The word of the Lord concerning Israel.
1 The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares: 2 “I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the Lord. “I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5 Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.’
6 “On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume all the surrounding peoples right and left, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.
7 “The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem’s inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8 On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.
Mourning for the One They Pierced
10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me (him), the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.

God will save a remnant from the Islamic Nations who repent and turn to the God of the Jews before the wrath of God is poured out. This remnant will be judged but not condemned...
Jeremiah 12:14-17
Isaiah 14:1-2
Isaiah 19
Ezekiel 47

See also:
Zechariah 14:2-3
Revelation 1:7
Revelation 13:13-14
Revelation 19:19-21

Prayers (Salat)
Sahi al Bukhari :: Book 1 :: Volume 8 :: Hadith 387
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshiped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah." Narrated Maimun ibn Siyah that he asked Anas bin Malik, "O Abu Hamza! What makes the life and property of a person sacred?" He replied, "Whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshiped but Allah', faces our Qibla during the prayers, prays like us and eats our slaughtered animal, then he is a Muslim, and has got the same rights and obligations as other Muslims have."

Naive and foolish Americans and Europeans!!! Foolish Obamas and Hillarys and all who follow after them... You are setting us up to be destroyed by Islam, and our way of life forever obliterated. If it be the will of God, then let it be.

 

[Joyousperson]

Hi Joseph,

You write:
<<
I too have read the same Islamic sources, including all of those you presented in your last post, and have come to a completely different understanding of Islam than you.
>>

setst RE: Obviously... You can look straight at the verses quoted and read them, and then believe just the opposite of what it states. Good examples can be gleaned from my post that you responded to.

For example:

Your claim: Muhammad would never condone dishonesty.
FACT: Muhammad used dishonestly commonly to assassinate others and to gain victory in battle against peaceful groups. And even proclaimed that "war is deceit."

You write:
<<
I have taken many courses in Islamic Studies from various sources over the past 30+ years from Christian, Islamic, and secular schools of thought.
>>

setst RE: I don't believe you. There is no way that in 30 years of study from so many sources that you did not even know that Taqyah involves lying and deception, and that Taqyah is being used in the West by Muslims for that purpose.

So, NO you are attempting to deceive others, but the Islamic sources unveil you for who you really are - a deceiver.

Then you show charts... I have no idea where they came from. One thing I do know, however, that the US and other nations have fought Muslims because of their horrific inhumanity, and most times at the request of poor Muslim nations who are being threatened and attacked by other Muslim nations.

The aggressor is not the US. If the US had its way, we never want to be involved in another war. However, Islam is terrorizing the world through groups like ISIS and Iran. And other Muslims nations want them stopped. So because the US helps, does not mean we now are the aggressor.

You write:
<<
It's pains me to see Christians spreading anti-Islamic propaganda.
>>

setst RE: Well, you just stated in the beginning that you spent 30 years studying in Christian schools. Your conclusion:

"Not one of these schools taught what you believe Islam teaches."

Then you say Christians are spreading anti-Islamic propaganda. You lie so much you don't even remember one lie from the next.

setst wrote:
↑
All you really have to do is read the news about what Muslims are trying to do in the countries the emigrate to: Sweden, Germany, France, USA, India and various Asian countries

You respond:
<<
Can you give some examples so I will know how to best respond to this?
>>

setst RE: You mean, you have no idea what's going on those those countries that Muslims are migrating too??? I mean it is all over the news for several years now - raping, vandalism, thefts, sharia no go zones, threats and demonstrations, huge increase of terrorism, and Muslims now demanding their own sharia territory (states) in the foreign countries they now live. All this and more has been on the news repeatedly.

Sharia are regulations that Muslims are to live by as demonstrated or commanded by Muhammad in the Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira.

Sharia is more than just laws governing every aspect of a Muslims life, but also involves:

• Military Law including terrorism
• Jihad against unbelievers
• Hudud

Hudud reserved for the most serious crimes in Islam (violations of the “rights of God”), including

• theft,
• illicit sexual relations,
• drinking intoxicants,
• apostasy (renunciation of the faith),
• hypocrisy,
• unbelief.

The Islamic view of Sharia to this day divides the world into two basic groups:

1) the Dar al-Islam (“the realm of Submission”, that is, Islamic lands ruled by a caliph under Shari’ah)

2) all the rest of the earth: the Dar al-Harb–which means, “the realm of war” - the infidels (unbelievers), hypocrites and apostates.

Fortunately, Sharia law is not executed in full anywhere today because it is so harsh and in some respects plain evil that no Muslim nation wants it fully implemented.

Sharia Law includes

• killing apostates,
• killing and punishing hypocrites
• Islamic jihad against unbelievers,
• killing homosexuals,
• child marriage - even before puberty,
• stoning women to death for adultery,
• enslaving non-Muslims during jihad,
• using slave women for sex and selling them.
• Muslim men would go to heaven and meet virgins after killing infidels.
• Non-Muslim men could face the death penalty for marrying a Muslim female.
• Denying equality of education for women,
• persecuting other Muslims sects as apostates,
• stoning people to death for adultery,
• whipping those involved in fornication.

Terror

Sharia includes Terror - the terrorizing of persons, groups and nations in order to promote Islam

“Allahu akbar, in Jihad against unbelievers, is the popular battle cry of Islamic jihadists as they commit mass murder. But the actual meaning is “Allah is greater,” meaning Allah Is Greater Than Your God or Government.

‘Allahu Akbar’ is the aggressive declaration that Allah and Islam are dominant over every other form of government, religion, law or ethic, which is why Islamic jihadists in the midst of killing infidels so often shout it.

Qur’an 9:73 O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed.

Qur’an 17:16-17 When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet sin. So that Allah’s word is proven true against them, then we destroy them utterly.

Sharia includes Terrorism against all who deny Islam

Qur’an 21:11 How many were the populations we utterly destroyed because of their sins, setting up in their place other peoples. Our terror came unto them.

Qur’an 3:151 I shall cast terror (Asad) into the hearts of those who are bent on denying the truth. We shall cast dread in return for their ascribing divinity, side by side with God, to other beings - [something] for which He has never bestowed any warrant from on high (lam yunazzil); [expresses a continuity in time for terrorism.] and their goal is the fire - and how evil that abode of evildoers!

Sahih Bukhari
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).
Sahih Bukhari 4:52:220

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "I have been given the keys of eloquent speech and given victory with awe (terror cast into the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping last night, the keys of the treasures of the earth were brought to me till they were put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle left (this world) and now you people are carrying those treasures from place to place.
Sahih Bukhari 9:87:127

Abu Huraira reported that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon hlmg) said: I have been given superiority over the other prophets in six respects: I have been given words which are concise but comprehensive in meaning; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies): spoils have been made lawful to me: the earth has been made for me clean and a place of worship; I have been sent to all mankind and the line of prophets is closed with me.
Sahih Muslim 4:1062

Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I have been commissioned with words which are concise but comprehensive in meaning; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies): and while I was asleep I was brought the keys of the treasures of the earth which were placed in my hand. And Abfi Huraira added: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) has left (for his heavenly home) and you are now busy in getting them.
Sahih Muslim 4:1063

Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I have been helped by terror (in the heart of the enemy); I have been given words which are concise but comprehensive in meaning; and while I was asleep I was brought the keys of the treasures of the earth which were placed in my hand.
Sahih Muslim 4:1066

Hammam b. Munabbih reported: That is what Abu Huraira reported to us from the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and he narrated (some) ahadith one of which is that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies) and I have been given words which are concise but comprehensive in meaning.
Sahih Muslim 4:1067

Sira from Ibn Ishaq

If you come upon them, deal so forcibly as to terrify those who would follow, that they may be warned. Make a severe example of them by terrorizing Allah’s enemies.
Ishaq:326

Allah said, ‘No Prophet before Muhammad took booty from his enemy nor prisoners for ransom.’ Muhammad said, ‘I was made victorious with terror. The earth was made a place for me to clean. I was given the most powerful words. Booty was made lawful for me. I was given the power to intercede. These five privileges were awarded to no prophet before me.’
Ishaq:326

Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’
Ishaq:327

When the Apostle looked down on Khaybar he told his Companions, ‘O Allah, Lord of the Devils and what into error they throw, and Lord of the winds and what they winnow, we ask Thee for the booty of this town and its people. Forward in the name of Allah.’ He used to say this of every town he raided.
Ishaq:510

When the Apostle descends on your land none of your people will be left when he leaves.
Ishaq:588

Al Tabari

After the Messenger had finished with the Khaybar Jews, Allah cast terror into the hearts of the Jews in Fadak when they received news of what Allah had brought upon Khaybar. Fadak became the exclusive property of Allah’s Messenger.
Al-Tabari, Vol. 8, p. 129

We have been dealt a situation from which there is no escape. You have seen what Muhammad has done. Arabs have submitted to him and we do not have the strength to fight. You know that no herd is safe from him. And no one even dares go outside for fear of being terrorized.
Al-Tabari, Vol. 9, p. 42

Al-Bukhaari (4557) narrated that Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “ ‘You (true believers in Islamic Monotheism, and real followers of Prophet Muhammad and his Sunnah) are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind’ [Qur’an Aal- Imraan 3:110 – interpretation of the meaning].” He said: “You are the best (i.e., the most beneficial) of people for mankind, you bring them in the chains that are around their necks until they enter Islam.”

Can people be brought in chains except in the case of jihad??

Fiqh al-Da’wah by Sayyid Qutb, 217-222.
It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (12/14):
Islam spread by means of proof and evidence to those who listened to the message and responded to it, and it spread by means of force and the sword to those who were stubborn and arrogant, until they were overwhelmed and became no longer stubborn, and submitted to that reality.

Was Islam spread by the sword?

Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid, Islam Q&A, Fatwa No. 4308

Muhammad on Murder
Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’
Ishaq:327

The Jews were made to come down, and Allah’s Messenger imprisoned them. Then the Prophet went out into the marketplace of Medina, and he had trenches dug in it. He sent for the Jewish men and had them beheaded in those trenches. They were brought out to him in batches. They numbered 800 to 900 boys and men.
Ishaq:464

Muhammad, and Islam, Have a Divine Right to Conquer Others

These cities were conquered in the time of Umar, Uthman, and others, Muslims used to say, ‘Conquer for yourselves whatever seems good to you; for by Allah you have conquered no city but that Muhammad was given its keys beforehand.‘
Al-Tabari, Vol. 8, p. 13

Quran 8:
12 I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes."
13. This is because they defied and disobeyed Allah and His Messenger. And whoever defies and disobeys Allah and His Messenger, then verily, Allah is Severe in punishment.
14. This is the torment, so taste it, and surely for the disbelievers is the torment of the Fire.

Quran 8:
38. Say to those who have disbelieved, if they cease (from disbelief) their past will be forgiven. But if they return (thereto), then the examples of those (punished) before them have already preceded (as a warning).
39. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.

What has been expressed is the evil side of SHARIA that you refuse to look at.

Will said and argued. Great points

 

[Joyousperson]

It's not the scriptures of the three Abrahamic religions that determine if a person is a Jew, Christian, or a Muslim, it's faith. I would venture to say that most Christians have never read the Bible thoroughly and countless millions have never read any of the Bible for themselves due to some of the reasons you gave above along with other impairments such as illiteracy and blindness. Despite this, they would be no less a Christian than the person who has read the Bible from cover to cover many times over. Most followers of the Abrahamic religions learn of their teachings through oral communication via rabbis, priests, pastors, clerics, imams, missionaries and others sharing the same faith.

You are shooting aimlessly.
You did claim 90% of Muslims know the verses in the Quran well enough to understand those contentious verses re killing are historical.
Now you are giving the above excuses, it is faith.

Note the various meanings of 'faith'.

1. confidence or trust in a person or thing:
2. belief that is not based on proof:
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion:
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.:
5. a system of religious belief:
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.:

Note all the meanings above are reducible to 2, i.e. belief that is not based on proof, i.e. subjective opinions and personal convictions.

In this case, 90% of Muslims believed their clerics and scholars based on faith, hearsay but without proof and objectivity.

To be objective on what is Islam and God's words and command, we need to understand thoroughly what is in the 6236 verses of the Quran.

That is what I have been doing and confirming the extremists are correct in their interpretation of those verses that contain evil and violent elements.

Islam doesn't condone the killing on non-believers either. Your interpretation if fesadin is different than that which is taught in Islam.

Where is your proofs??

I have proven the concept of 'fasadin' and its supporting details and range of examples are expressed in the Quran itself.
Those who killed non-Muslims relied on these verses objectively as Allah intended it to be, so that they can gain the greatest merit to paradise with eternal life.
WHO ARE YOU, me or others to judge insist they are wrong, only Allah can judge.

I showed you where this is also true of Islam, but you rejected my explanation. If you were correct with your way of believing then 99% of the world's Muslims wouldn't be living in peace with their neighbors. The fact that they are destroys pretty much everything you have said since joining this forum.

What is the point of showing and expressing your views which are not well argued and supported?
In general, the Quran may mentioned something like 'be friendly' to non-Muslims in one or two verses which are contentious or abrogated, but this is weighed against 3400++ verses that are antagonistic and contemptuous to non-Muslims in the overall context of the Quran [& Ahadith] and Islam.

Islamic extremists are no greater threat than any other extremist ideology when it comes to the potential use of WMDs. For example, in the US there have been several plots by right wing extremists in recent years where WMDs were planned to be deployed on the public. I have linked to several studies in the other threads that have shown that Islamic extremists aren't carrying out acts of terrorism to please Allah or to reap rewards in paradise as you claim.

You seem to imply we should not be bothered with the potential threat of total destruction and extermination of the human species because other terrorists with WMDs intents exist.
That is a very perverted mind, the extreme a Muslims apologist will go to defend Islam.

Note the Japanese terrorist gangs, Aum Shinrikyo did use poison gas and killed many in a subway in 1984.
If non-Islamic terrorists were to use WMDs, there are limited, i.e.

1. not likely to use the worst kind of WMDs,
2. not likely to be extensive around the world
3. will be limited by MAD - Mutual Assured Destruction,
4. not supported by a religion or God

Nonetheless we have to address and eliminate the above threat from these non-Islamic terrorists groups.

Islam with its no-holds-barred ideology and the 320 million of evil prone Muslims, on the other hand, pose the greatest and ultimate potential to exterminate the human species.

I have demonstrated with various references, many Islamist claimed to perform their religious duty to Allah when killing innocent non-Muslims. Such is expressed in many verses from the Quran.

In essence he did since he states that Islam brought an end to much of the tribal feudalism in the Arabian peninsula and introduced moral and ethical approaches to conflict.

Yes, Islam ended the tribal feudalism and organized them into one satanic army with the same mission to dominate non-Muslims around the world.
This is so evident with the conquest by Muslims invaders from Spain to India with trails of terrible evil and violent acts as motivated and inspired by the inherent evil and violent ideology of Islam.

Note Izutsu also mentioned there is a transition of feudal and tribalistic elements from pre-Islamic into the Islamic era. This is why there are still elements of primal aggression against 'the other' [us versus them], i.e. non-Muslims, imbued within the Quran. This is what the 320 million evil prone Muslims will feast upon in align with their inherent evil tendencies.

Yes, Islam did introduce relatively better and systematic ethics in contrast to the very primitive wide ranging feudal and tribal thoughts.
But these ethics, rules and laws are only applicable if one is a Muslim.
For non-Muslims it is a different set of rules where they are treated like trash and be killed upon any inkling of fasadin [threat to Islam].

Note the dehumanizing terms forced upon non-Muslims; e.g.

5:60. Shall I tell thee of a worse (case) than theirs [infidels] for retribution with Allah? Worse (is the case of him) [infidel] whom Allah hath cursed, him [Kafir] on whom His wrath [on Jews] hath fallen! Worse is he [infidel] of whose sort Allah hath turned some to apes and swine, and who serveth idols. Such [infidels] are in worse plight and further astray from the plain road.​

7:166. So when they [Jews infidels] took pride in that which they [infidels] had been forbidden, We said unto them [infidel Jews]: Be ye apes despised and loathed!

58:20. Lo! those [infidels] who oppose [HDD: yuḥāddūna] Allah and His messenger, they [infidels] will be among the lowest [DhLL: l-adhalīna]. [of creatures]​

98:6. Lo! those [infidels] who disbelieve [KFR: kafarū], among the People of the Scripture [Jews and Christians] and the idolaters [l-mush'rikīna], will abide in fire of hell. They [infidels] are the worst [ShRR; sharru] of created beings. [BRA: l-bariyati].​

while Muslims are the best of creatures;

98:7. (And) lo! Those [proto-Muslims] who believe [AMN: amanu] and do good works [l-ṣāliḥāti] are the best [KhYR: khayru] of created beings. [BRA: l-bariyati].​

7:179. …. These [infidels] are as the cattle nay, but they [infidels] are worse! These [infidels] are the neglectful [GhFL; l-ghāfilūna; heedless].​

When non-Muslims are dehumanized by Allah [all-powerful] the evil prone Muslims [320 millions] will be induced to be arrogant and treat the non-Muslims as trash and vermins to be exterminated.

Note there are tons of dehumanizing verses and 3400++ verses, 55% of the 6236 verses in the Quran that condemned the non-Muslims in general.

This is evident in the context of the whole Quran, Allah with its ideology of Islam is evil and violent.
Can you counter the above?

Really? Izutsu was fluent in Arabic and literally wrote the Qur'an in his native language after analyzing every single word of it's content. He also lived and worked among Muslims in the Middle East. By being an outsider to both the Islamic world and the west, his approach to Islam and his research probably gave the most unbiased and unprejudiced picture of this religion than any other researcher in history.

True, his research is objective, which I had insisted you do the same. Anyone can verify his work to the Quran's 6236 verses and his application of logic, semantics, ethics and others.

Izutsu's research is confined to the semantics, concepts and ethics of Islam [based on the analysis of the Quran] is thus relatively limited to his area of research.
Me, on the other hand, on top of what Izutsu did, I brought in a wide range of advanced knowledge with Philosophy [as wide as possible], Neurosciences, psychology, neuro-pyschology, neuro-evolutionary psychology, comparative religions & spirituality and various other fields of knowledge.

Note I have gone through every of the 6236 verses in the Quran and put in [...] the critical terms and concepts with their Arabic roots and terms and identify where non-Muslims [infidels] are involved. You can see that in all the verses I quoted from the Quran [Pickthall's translation]. It is not a one month job but take years.​

 

[setst777]

You are shooting aimlessly.
You did claim 90% of Muslims know the verses in the Quran well enough to understand those contentious verses re killing are historical.
Now you are giving the above excuses, it is faith.

Note the various meanings of 'faith'.

1. confidence or trust in a person or thing:
2. belief that is not based on proof:
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion:
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.:
5. a system of religious belief:
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.:

Note all the meanings above are reducible to 2, i.e. belief that is not based on proof, i.e. subjective opinions and personal convictions.

In this case, 90% of Muslims believed their clerics and scholars based on faith, hearsay but without proof and objectivity.

To be objective on what is Islam and God's words and command, we need to understand thoroughly what is in the 6236 verses of the Quran.

That is what I have been doing and confirming the extremists are correct in their interpretation of those verses that contain evil and violent elements.


Where is your proofs??

I have proven the concept of 'fasadin' and its supporting details and range of examples are expressed in the Quran itself.
Those who killed non-Muslims relied on these verses objectively as Allah intended it to be, so that they can gain the greatest merit to paradise with eternal life.
WHO ARE YOU, me or others to judge insist they are wrong, only Allah can judge.


What is the point of showing and expressing your views which are not well argued and supported?
In general, the Quran may mentioned something like 'be friendly' to non-Muslims in one or two verses which are contentious or abrogated, but this is weighed against 3400++ verses that are antagonistic and contemptuous to non-Muslims in the overall context of the Quran [& Ahadith] and Islam.


You seem to imply we should not be bothered with the potential threat of total destruction and extermination of the human species because other terrorists with WMDs intents exist.
That is a very perverted mind, the extreme a Muslims apologist will go to defend Islam.

Note the Japanese terrorist gangs, Aum Shinrikyo did use poison gas and killed many in a subway in 1984.
If non-Islamic terrorists were to use WMDs, there are limited, i.e.

1. not likely to use the worst kind of WMDs,
2. not likely to be extensive around the world
3. will be limited by MAD - Mutual Assured Destruction,
4. not supported by a religion or God

Nonetheless we have to address and eliminate the above threat from these non-Islamic terrorists groups.

Islam with its no-holds-barred ideology and the 320 million of evil prone Muslims, on the other hand, pose the greatest and ultimate potential to exterminate the human species.

I have demonstrated with various references, many Islamist claimed to perform their religious duty to Allah when killing innocent non-Muslims. Such is expressed in many verses from the Quran.


Yes, Islam ended the tribal feudalism and organized them into one satanic army with the same mission to dominate non-Muslims around the world.
This is so evident with the conquest by Muslims invaders from Spain to India with trails of terrible evil and violent acts as motivated and inspired by the inherent evil and violent ideology of Islam.

Note Izutsu also mentioned there is a transition of feudal and tribalistic elements from pre-Islamic into the Islamic era. This is why there are still elements of primal aggression against 'the other' [us versus them], i.e. non-Muslims, imbued within the Quran. This is what the 320 million evil prone Muslims will feast upon in align with their inherent evil tendencies.

Yes, Islam did introduce relatively better and systematic ethics in contrast to the very primitive wide ranging feudal and tribal thoughts.
But these ethics, rules and laws are only applicable if one is a Muslim.
For non-Muslims it is a different set of rules where they are treated like trash and be killed upon any inkling of fasadin [threat to Islam].

Note the dehumanizing terms forced upon non-Muslims; e.g.

5:60. Shall I tell thee of a worse (case) than theirs [infidels] for retribution with Allah? Worse (is the case of him) [infidel] whom Allah hath cursed, him [Kafir] on whom His wrath [on Jews] hath fallen! Worse is he [infidel] of whose sort Allah hath turned some to apes and swine, and who serveth idols. Such [infidels] are in worse plight and further astray from the plain road.​

7:166. So when they [Jews infidels] took pride in that which they [infidels] had been forbidden, We said unto them [infidel Jews]: Be ye apes despised and loathed!

58:20. Lo! those [infidels] who oppose [HDD: yuḥāddūna] Allah and His messenger, they [infidels] will be among the lowest [DhLL: l-adhalīna]. [of creatures]​

98:6. Lo! those [infidels] who disbelieve [KFR: kafarū], among the People of the Scripture [Jews and Christians] and the idolaters [l-mush'rikīna], will abide in fire of hell. They [infidels] are the worst [ShRR; sharru] of created beings. [BRA: l-bariyati].​

while Muslims are the best of creatures;

98:7. (And) lo! Those [proto-Muslims] who believe [AMN: amanu] and do good works [l-ṣāliḥāti] are the best [KhYR: khayru] of created beings. [BRA: l-bariyati].​

7:179. …. These [infidels] are as the cattle nay, but they [infidels] are worse! These [infidels] are the neglectful [GhFL; l-ghāfilūna; heedless].​

When non-Muslims are dehumanized by Allah [all-powerful] the evil prone Muslims [320 millions] will be induced to be arrogant and treat the non-Muslims as trash and vermins to be exterminated.

Note there are tons of dehumanizing verses and 3400++ verses, 55% of the 6236 verses in the Quran that condemned the non-Muslims in general.

This is evident in the context of the whole Quran, Allah with its ideology of Islam is evil and violent.
Can you counter the above?


True, his research is objective, which I had insisted you do the same. Anyone can verify his work to the Quran's 6236 verses and his application of logic, semantics, ethics and others.

Izutsu's research is confined to the semantics, concepts and ethics of Islam [based on the analysis of the Quran] is thus relatively limited to his area of research.
Me, on the other hand, on top of what Izutsu did, I brought in a wide range of advanced knowledge with Philosophy [as wide as possible], Neurosciences, psychology, neuro-pyschology, neuro-evolutionary psychology, comparative religions & spirituality and various other fields of knowledge.

Note I have gone through every of the 6236 verses in the Quran and put in [...] the critical terms and concepts with their Arabic roots and terms and identify where non-Muslims [infidels] are involved. You can see that in all the verses I quoted from the Quran [Pickthall's translation]. It is not a one month job but take years.​

Hi Joyousperson,

Great post with good solid evidence. Seeing such posts strengthens my faith and helps me to become a better witness.

You write:
<<
Yes, Islam did introduce relatively better and systematic ethics in contrast to the very primitive wide ranging feudal and tribal thoughts.
But these ethics, rules and laws are only applicable if one is a Muslim.
For non-Muslims it is a different set of rules where they are treated like trash and be killed upon any inkling of fasadin [threat to Islam].
>>

setst RE: Those different set of rules for non-Muslims (unbelievers, apostates and hypocrites) is clearly and repeatedly commanded and taught throughout the Qur'an, the Hadith, the Sira, and the most reliable Tafsir.

And really, just look what is happening within the Muslim nations compared to non-Muslim nations, to see and learn how these Muslims treat other Muslims, and Christians and Jews.

Really! We have a whole history of Islamic conquest from Muhammad to the times of the rightly guided caliphs to see Islams intent: Within a little over 100 years 2/3 of Europe of destroyed and put under Islamic control before they were finally stopped. The whole world was the Goal of Islam.

Within Muhammad’s lifetime the whole of the Arabian Peninsula was conquered.

And, in following with Muhamad’s command to fight unbelievers where ever you find them and conquer the world for Islam, within 120 years after his death, Islam conquered lands stretching all the way to China on one end and the Atlantic Ocean on the other side.. Their conquests include. . .

Conquest of Syria: 634–641
Conquest of Egypt: 639–642
Conquest of Mesopotamia and Persia: 633–651
Conquest of Sindh (India): 711–714
Conquest of the Maghreb (NE Libya): 647–742
Conquest of Spain and Septimania: 711–721
Conquest of Transoxiana (modern-day Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and parts of Kazakhstan): 673–751

Islam was to conquer the world for Allah by the command of Muhammad in the Quran.

Qur'an 61:9 He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islamic monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religions even though the Mushrikûn (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah and His Messenger Muhammad) hate (it). (Hilali and Khan, The Noble Qur’an, Riyadh: Darussalam, 1996)

The historical context of 61:9 is battle and warfare according to the Hadith. And that is how the rightly guided Caliphs understood the orders of Muhammad, which is why they were conquering the world for Islam.

Qur'an 9:29 – “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” “People of the Book” refers to Christians and Jews. According to this verse, they are to be violently subjugated, with the sole justification being their religious status. Verse 9:33 tells Muslims that Allah has charted them to make Islam “superior over all religions.” This chapter was one of the final “revelations” from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad’s companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.

Can you imagine over 270 million people slaughtered by Islam in its 1400 years of conquest (which includes all those Africans who died on Muslim slave ships).

Millions more women and children from good families in civilized societies, most of whom saw their husbands, daddies and mothers, relatives and friends slaughtered and lives torn apart, many being Christian or Jewish, turned into sex slaves to be sold on the market repeatedy, or kept as pets to be raped over and over again by the cult that tortured, killed and enslaved their family, burned their homes down, destroyed their lives and their country.

Muhammad’s mandate for war against the world until the world becomes Islam has not changed to this very day. The only force holding them back is the West.

In Islam, there can be no new law or command that supersedes what Muhammad commanded. Why? Because, according to Islam, Muhammad is the last prophet. That is why all fundamental Muslims are Jihadists bent on destroying the West. Here is how Muhammad taught Islam how to do this…

1) Enter a country proclaiming to peaceful and a religion of peace and tolerance.

2) After gaining more in number, influence using Taqyah socio-political environment to favor Muslims, create protests, demonstrations, unrest, terrorism, killings.

3) Once gaining a foothold, then they are to subdue, conquer, torture, kill and enslave the very country that gave them refuge.

4) Kill all hypocrites and apostates, take all their property, and capture their children as sex slaves and, if a male children submit to Islam then they are to be recruited into Muhammad’s army.

That is what Muhammad commanded, and that is what Islam has practiced throughout its history.