Do nations turn evil without Christ?

[DamianWarS]

The general sentiment among western believers is that without Christ nations are predisposed to evil citing places/people like ISIS, China, or North Korea as their proof. Is this true? Are there examples of cultures, people groups and/or nations that have risen to goodness and prosperity that can mirror "Christian" nations without the mores of Christianity or dominantly without Christ as their shepherd? Or does a state without Christ destine to failure, corruption, greed and poverty because they are lost?

There are plenty of examples of Christian nations failing so failure alone is not good enough but it is failure without Christ and without a history of Christian values. One country comes to mind for me... Japan. A part of the G7 nations with about a percent being Christian. This makes then an unreached people group and in some areas an unengaged unreached people group. A nation without Christ yet prosperous and generally "good". They have their hedonistic issues of course but none that seem to out weight "christian" nations. So why have their christ-less achievements been so fruitful?

 

[Dave L]

The general sentiment among western believers is that without Christ nations are predisposed to evil citing places/people like ISIS, China, or North Korea as their proof. Is this true? Are there examples of cultures, people groups and/or nations that have risen to goodness and prosperity that can mirror "Christian" nations without the mores of Christianity or dominantly without Christ as their shepherd? Or does a state without Christ destine to failure, corruption, greed and poverty because they are lost?

There are plenty of example of Christian nations failing so failure alone is not good enough but it is failure without Christ and without a history of Christian values. One country comes to mind for me... Japan. A part of the G7 nations with about a percent being Christian. This makes then an unreached people group and in some areas an unengaged unreached people group. A nation without Christ yet prosperous and generally "good". They have their hedonistic issues of course but none that seem to out weight "christian" nations. So why have their christ-less achievements been so fruitful?

“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.” (1 John 5:19)

 

[AnnaDeborah]

There is no such thing as a 'Christian' nation (or a non Christian one) although some countries have greater numbers of individual Christians than others. But even in countries where every effort has been made to drive out Jesus (North Korea, Somalia etc) there are faithful individuals who follow Christ.

 

[DamianWarS]

There is no such thing as a 'Christian' nation (or a non Christian one) although some countries have greater numbers of individual Christians than others. But even in countries where every effort has been made to drive out Jesus (North Korea, Somalia etc) there are faithful individuals who follow Christ.

I mean a Christian nation whereby a nation has had a lot of influence by Christianity.

Western cultural values are as they are because of Christian influence. The "things" we think are right or wrong largely come from a Christian narrative so regardless what you believe Christianity bares it mark. Places where historically or presently Christianity has not had a dominate presence cannot be said they were influenced by Christianity in any great way and then arguably by inheritance Christ.

So the tribal unknown people group in the Amazon jungle doesn't think murdering and stealing are wrong because of the pillars of the church but they think it's wrong for other reasons (assuming they think it's wrong at all)

Japan is an un-christian nation. It doesn't have the historical Christian narrative and it hasn't been shaped by Christian values. The values it has are their own shaped largely outside of the reach of Christianity. Today they are 1% Christian, yet prosperous, responsible and seemingly thriving. How did they get here without Christ? Or is crediting a nations prosperity with how much Christian influence it has even responsible?

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

The general sentiment among western believers is that without Christ nations are predisposed to evil citing places/people like ISIS, China, or North Korea as their proof. Is this true? Are there examples of cultures, people groups and/or nations that have risen to goodness and prosperity that can mirror "Christian" nations without the mores of Christianity or dominantly without Christ as their shepherd? Or does a state without Christ destine to failure, corruption, greed and poverty because they are lost?

There are plenty of examples of Christian nations failing so failure alone is not good enough but it is failure without Christ and without a history of Christian values. One country comes to mind for me... Japan. A part of the G7 nations with about a percent being Christian. This makes then an unreached people group and in some areas an unengaged unreached people group. A nation without Christ yet prosperous and generally "good". They have their hedonistic issues of course but none that seem to out weight "christian" nations. So why have their christ-less achievements been so fruitful?

I think it is natural for people to think their country is better. Just like "western" countries may think theirs is better, "eastern" countries think their way is better. And both sides will cite the evidences that support them. That's just what people do.

To claim that western believers think that theirs is better--because they have "Christianity" involved--is making the big assumption about the genuineness of the professing believer and about the country they are claiming. Most countries, including the United States have more non-believers running them than believers. So, to claim that the United States is a Christian nation really defies the facts. If the United States was a Christian nation, for example, we wouldn't allow abortion, we wouldn't allow the lie of evolution to run our schools and universities, God wouldn't be banished from the same institutions, the games played in politics wouldn't be allowed, and we would be seeking God for the answers to our problems, not the powerful and monetarily-endowed, etc.

 

[juvenissun]

The general sentiment among western believers is that without Christ nations are predisposed to evil citing places/people like ISIS, China, or North Korea as their proof. Is this true? Are there examples of cultures, people groups and/or nations that have risen to goodness and prosperity that can mirror "Christian" nations without the mores of Christianity or dominantly without Christ as their shepherd? Or does a state without Christ destine to failure, corruption, greed and poverty because they are lost?

There are plenty of examples of Christian nations failing so failure alone is not good enough but it is failure without Christ and without a history of Christian values. One country comes to mind for me... Japan. A part of the G7 nations with about a percent being Christian. This makes then an unreached people group and in some areas an unengaged unreached people group. A nation without Christ yet prosperous and generally "good". They have their hedonistic issues of course but none that seem to out weight "christian" nations. So why have their christ-less achievements been so fruitful?

Christ is a personal God.
Not even a Christian church composed of all Christians.

 

[DamianWarS]

hmm... it seems people are hung up over this idea of a "Christian" nation. I do not mean this term to suggest a Christian state but rather a nation that is widely influenced by Christian values. These nations dominantly think what is right and wrong from their Christian heritage regardless if presently there isn't a lot of professed Christian faith. Values like do not steal, do not murder and be nice to each other ultimately came from biblical principles even if most reject the bible because the founding principles are heavily Christian influenced. European states find themselves largely secular but many of their values still are rooted in Christianity as they have strong Christian heritage. Don't get hung up over the terms used.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

hmm... it seems people are hung up over this idea of a "Christian" nation. I do not mean this term to suggest a Christian state but rather a nation that is widely influenced by Christian values. These nations dominantly think what is right and wrong from their Christian heritage regardless if presently there isn't a lot of professed Christian faith. Values like do not steal, do not murder and be nice to each other ultimately came from biblical principles even if most reject the bible because the founding principles are heavily Christian influenced. European states find themselves largely secular but many of their values still are rooted in Christianity as they have strong Christian heritage. Don't get hung up over the terms used.

But, when you make a statement like "Christian nations" versus "non-Christian nations," you create a dichotomy by the terms you use that isn't there. I initially shared that self-serving people will always think whatever they stand for is best. That isn't limited to people who claim to be Christian.

According to Scripture, we are all evil (at least until God truly comes into our lives) and yet, according to our own Scriptures, even then, we can choose to walk in the flesh (which is evil) and necessarily results in corruption and death. All people without Christ are subject to the curse and are evil. The majority of people in any country are without Christ. There is no distinction in Scripture. Even in the Old Testament, the very people who were chosen continued to do evil in God's sight over and over again. Evil didn't suddenly stop happening in the Roman empire when Constantine decided to make the christian religion their official religion. Evil never stopped happening in the entire history of the United States, no matter who claims the founding fathers of the United States were Christian. We mistreated the Indians and stole their land. We mistreated Africans and stole their freedom to make money off their labor. We mistreated each other. The United States was never truly a Christian nation, though we certainly may have assimilated what people claim to be "Judeo-Christian"-specific values. That is why one person on another thread even said he saw more "Christlike" assimulation from a hindu than any Christian he has known in his 75 years. Values and relationship aren't the same thing. The United States wasn't founded on a relationship with Christ.

Appearing to run consistent with some of the lists in the Bible doesn't even make the majority of those who are in an entity called a "Christian church" true believers as Scripture describes saving belief.

There would also be a big difference between a "Christian nation" and a nation that "once upon a time" appeared to be influenced by some semblance of a Christian heritage. The protestant church may have come out of the roman catholic church, but the two are very different entities in more than one way. I don't think there are many people who would go into a protestant church and call it a roman catholic church, simply because historically protestants came out of roman catholic church.

 

[DamianWarS]

But, when you make a statement like "Christian nations" versus "non-Christian nations," you create a dichotomy by the terms you use that isn't there. I initially shared that self-serving people will always think whatever they stand for is best. That isn't limited to people who claim to be Christian.

you'll have to work with me a bit and see past the semantics. Christ does not save nations he saves people so when a national level is invoked it's christian characteristics are about cultural values than they are individuals of faith. Christian Nation = Nation heavily influenced by Christian values. Non-Christian Nation = Nation with very little influence by Christian values. This is the same with good/evil. Nations are not single individuals so when they are characterised as good or bad it amounts to their net total of how they are changing the world for good or for bad and does this look like prosperity or does it look like poverty because they often mirror each other.

So when a nation is peaceful, prosperous, has responsibly government, is contributing to global economy, is innovating on a global scale, etc... they are thought of as good. when a nation's contribution sends a message of conflict, hate, racism, mistreatment, oppression and generally closed doors they are thought of as evil... still with me?

Christians... well, American Christians, seem to think that God has chosen their nation and cite their prosperity as proof and may cite the deplorable conditions of war torn countries as not surrendering to Christ using various biblical proof texts. But this doesn't make sense for all countries and it's easy to pick off the ISIS and the North Koreas but sometimes that theory completely fails and for some reason countries can thrive without Christ.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

you'll have to work with me a bit and see past the semantics. Christ does not save nations he saves people so when a national level is invoked it's christian characteristics are about cultural values than they are individuals of faith. Christian Nation = Nation heavily influenced by Christian values. Non-Christian Nation = Nation with very little influence by Christian values. This is the same with good/evil. Nations are not single individuals so when they are characterised as good or bad it amounts to their net total of how they are changing the world for good or for bad and does this look like prosperity or does it look like poverty because they often mirror each other.

So when a nation is peaceful, prosperous, has responsibly government, is contributing to global economy, is innovating on a global scale, etc... they are thought of as good. when a nation's contribution sends a message of conflict, hate, racism, mistreatment, oppression and generally closed doors they are thought of as evil... still with me?

Christians... well, American Christians, seem to think that God has chosen their nation and cite their prosperity as proof and may cite the deplorable conditions of war torn countries as not surrendering to Christ using various biblical proof texts. But this doesn't make sense for all countries and it's easy to pick off the ISIS and the North Koreas but sometimes that theory completely fails and for some reason countries can thrive without Christ.

(1) I know what people say. I get that. But, just because people say things, doesn't make it true. And people's labels won't carry any weight with God. God defines good and evil, based on measures that aren't necessarily shared by the unregenerated (or even flesh-walking Christians).

(2) People love bashing American Christians, as if that classification stands for a homogeneous group; but it doesn't. Only some are worldly prosperity-driven, NOT ALL. Some even make genuinely self-sacrificial decisions and don't participate in politics, similar to the early Christians. To make global generalizations is almost always flawed, not just in this case.

(3) By what you shared as the context for deciding "good and evil," there are a lot of things that are open to interpretation, depending on how you define the words in your conditions. Depending on how you define those words, and who is judging, you could have very different looking lists.

 

[DamianWarS]

(1) I know what people say. I get that. But, just because people say things, doesn't make it true. And people's labels won't carry any weight with God. God defines good and evil, based on measures that aren't necessarily shared by the unregenerated (or even flesh-walking Christians).

(2) People love bashing American Christians, as if that classification stands for a homogeneous group; but it doesn't. Only some are worldly prosperity-driven, NOT ALL. Some even make genuinely self-sacrificial decisions and don't participate in politics, similar to the early Christians. To make global generalizations is almost always flawed, not just in this case.

(3) By what you shared as the context for deciding "good and evil," there are a lot of things that are open to interpretation, depending on how you define the words in your conditions. Depending on how you define those words, and who is judging, you could have very different looking lists.

So I'll ask you this instead, can a nation be blessed by God because of their Christian heritage, Christian values or strong Christian representation? Likewise can a nation be punished by God because of the absence of these values or Christian representation? Is it responsible to point to a nation and call it cursed by God or a special blessing from God?

 

[Shempster]

I mean a Christian nation whereby a nation has had a lot of influence by Christianity.

The country with the most churches per capita is Jamaica.
That might not answer your question, but it is a clue to look into if you are so inclined.

BlessUp

 

[FireDragon76]

hmm... it seems people are hung up over this idea of a "Christian" nation. I do not mean this term to suggest a Christian state but rather a nation that is widely influenced by Christian values. These nations dominantly think what is right and wrong from their Christian heritage regardless if presently there isn't a lot of professed Christian faith. Values like do not steal, do not murder and be nice to each other ultimately came from biblical principles even if most reject the bible because the founding principles are heavily Christian influenced.

Those values exist in many cultures, not just Christian ones. Japan is a good example. They have their own religions that teach about the sanctity of human life and compassion.

 

[DamianWarS]

Those values exist in many cultures, not just Christian ones. Japan is a good example. They have their own religions that teach about the sanctity of human life and compassion.

They may have overlapping Christian values but they didn't get it from Christian influence, currently they are 1% Christian.

 

[FireDragon76]

They may have overlapping Christian values but they didn't get it from Christian influence, currently they are 1% Christian.

I never implied that Japan has "Christian values".

 

[DamianWarS]

I never implied that Japan has "Christian values".

I know but that's part the question. How does Japan, in their non-Christian structures, systems and heritage rise above, be prosperous and responsible without Christ? Everywhere pretty much thinks murdering and stealing are wrong yet for some reason they happen more in some places, not because murdering is a cultural value but for a lot of other reasons that lead to disorder. This seems to conflict with the idea that a country's prosperity can be linked to a special blessing that Christ gives them based on the faith in that country. Jesus tells us "[the Father] causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous"

 

[Aaron112]

Christ is a personal God.
Not even a Christian church composed of all Christians.

Much needed reminder almost every day, all over the earth.

 

[Aaron112]

How does Japan, in their non-Christian structures, systems and heritage rise above, be prosperous and responsible without Christ?

"Why do the wicked prosper?"
"Don't envy the wicked"
"Don't keep company with the wicked" (anyone hot temper/angry, greedy, selfish, idolators)

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

If you asked most normie Christians these days, it's Christianity itself that makes nations go evil. The less Christianity is involved in the social, legal and cultural nature of a country, the better, apparently.

 

[T.i.m.o.t.h.y.]

If you asked most normie Christians these days, it's Christianity itself that makes nations go evil. The less Christianity is involved in the social, legal and cultural nature of a country, the better, apparently.

Jesus said to go into all the world and preach the gospel of the kingdom. I learned a song in Sunday school many years ago. This little light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine, shine all over my community and not let satan blow it out, I'm gonna let it shine.

I still hold to those words because they are based on what Jesus said. The light of the body is the eye, but if your eye be dark then so is your whole body. We are the light of the world, if we don't shine then our community, our state, our nation will be dark. The world's light will shine brightly without any hinderance by righteousness. That's evident when Nimrod ruled, and evident in all pagan world empires.

Lot did what he could to shine his light to Sodom and Gomorrah, he had a town position of righteous judgement, a political position, but he was one man against many in darkness. That town had no foundation of light because none of them were in covenant with God.
When God told Abraham that judgement would come to S&G, Abraham a righteous man interceded on behalf of the town because of Lot's righteous influence there.
Starting at 50 righteous and working down to 10 righteous. In response, God said that He'd spare S&G if there were 10. But alas there was only Lot, his wife and daughters who escaped the judgement (if his wife hadn't looked back).
But, even so, inspite of the great opposition, Lot was in position shining his light, even if it was weak in effect. A dimly burning light the Lord will not snuff out.

If Christians practice their Christianity unto themselves only, and not making it evident for all around them, then their religion is in vain. How odd, that sin and sinful people don't keep their sin out of the social, legal, and culture arenas where they live.. but some Christians think that we should keep our Christianity out of those places were we have a level of interaction and involvement through employment and buying worldly necessities, sending our children to schools- where they learn secular information to function in the worldly arena, to think like the world if not grounded in the gospel to resist unrighteousness, etc.

In my experience it's the world that says keep your beliefs in your church and not be bothering them.