Do "good" atheists go to heaven?

[Rhamiel]

Wait...
There is a purgatory?
Who is going to purgatory and who is going to hell?
What about other religions? Are they even worse than atheism?
(Sorry for being curiuos )

Purgatory is for people who are in a state of friendship with God, meaning they love God, they are spiritually regenerated, they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the process of Sanctification has begun (I am basically saying the same thing over and over, each term talks about being saved, just slight different focus, look at it as nuance rather then different things) but still have some minor failings that need healed. Purgatory is not forever, it is a state of being to prepare people for heaven

Hell is for people not in a state of friendship with God

I would say other religions are less bad then atheism , because they have more elements of the truth, but it is not the true Faith, so still hellbound

 

[The Grouch]

Purgatory is for people who are in a state of friendship with God, meaning they love God, they are spiritually regenerated, they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the process of Sanctification has begun (I am basically saying the same thing over and over, each term talks about being saved, just slight different focus, look at it as nuance rather then different things) but still have some minor failings that need healed. Purgatory is not forever, it is a state of being to prepare people for heaven

Hell is for people not in a state of friendship with God

I would say other religions are less bad then atheism , because they have more elements of the truth, but it is not the true Faith, so still hellbound

However we do trust in Gods mercy and we as a church both ecclesiastical and as a body of believers entrust such souls to the mercy of God although we do not presume his mercy. We know under normal circumstances such souls are hellbound but that salvation is entirely in the hands of God who we know is mercifull so we trust in his mercy but we can not presume we or others will recieve mercy if we die not in a state of grace that is not in full communion/in full friendship with God

 

[thecolorsblend]

but it is not the true Faith, so still hellbound

Eh. It... depends.

 

[StevenMerten]

I think the pope answered correctly

So little Emanuele feels bad that his dad died an atheist and he wants to know if his dad is in heaven. Emanuele tells Pope Francis that his atheist dad was a good man. Pope Francis assures Emanuele that his good atheist dad is, in fact, in heaven.

So what if little Emanuele said his dad was a bad man. What if little Emanuele told Pope Francis that his dad molested him and his brothers and murdered his mom as she tried to protect them, and died in a gun battle with police as he screamed blasphemies against God. What do you think Pope Francis' judgement on Emanuelle's dad, in regard to heaven or hell, should be if Emanuelle's dad was a child abuser, murderer, blasphemer, and atheist, to his death?

Pope Francis could answer, 'Do you think that God wants this child abusing man who murdered your mother with him in heaven?' Emanuelle would say, 'no'. Pope Francis would say, 'Louder, with courage'. Emanuelle would scream 'NO!' Pope Francis would say, 'Does God abandon His children in hell when they are total abominations?' Emanuelle would scream, 'Yes!'

Or, Pope Francis could say, 'Emanuelle, you are evil for describing your own father as an evil child molester and murderer! God's mercy is infinite! I assure you, Emanuelle, your father, even though he is an unrepentant child abuser, murderer, blasphemer, and atheist, is in heaven before God right now. This is how great God's mercy truly is!

So Davidic, what do you think Pope Francis' answer to Emanuelle should be if Emanuelle tells Pope Francis that his atheist dad is a 'bad man'?

 

[Rhamiel]

Eh. It... depends.

Invincible ignorance would mean you are not guilty of your false belief
But the non-Christian is still unbaptized, unregenerated
So Limbo may be possible, but I do not think they are saved

 

[thecolorsblend]

Invincible ignorance would mean you are not guilty of your false belief
But the non-Christian is still unbaptized, unregenerated
So Limbo may be possible, but I do not think they are saved

There's more than enough going on with that stuff for me to be content leaving it in God's hands. We're not all equally culpable so it never made sense that our judgment will be One Size Fits All, you know?

 

[Davidnic]

So little Emanuele feels bad that his dad died an atheist and he wants to know if his dad is in heaven. Emanuele tells Pope Francis that his atheist dad was a good man. Pope Francis assures Emanuele that his good atheist dad is, in fact, in heaven.

So what if little Emanuele said his dad was a bad man. What if little Emanuele told Pope Francis that his dad molested him and his brothers and murdered his mom as she tried to protect them, and died in a gun battle with police as he screamed blasphemies against God. What do you think Pope Francis' judgement on Emanuelle's dad, in regard to heaven or hell, should be if Emanuelle's dad was a child abuser, murderer, blasphemer, and atheist, to his death?

Pope Francis could answer, 'Do you think that God wants this child abusing man who murdered your mother with him in heaven?' Emanuelle would say, 'no'. Pope Francis would say, 'Louder, with courage'. Emanuelle would scream 'NO!' Pope Francis would say, 'Does God abandon His children in hell when they are total abominations?' Emanuelle would scream, 'Yes!'

Or, Pope Francis could say, 'Emanuelle, you are evil for describing your own father as an evil child molester and murderer! God's mercy is infinite! I assure you, Emanuelle, your father, even though he is an unrepentant child abuser, murderer, blasphemer, and atheist, is in heaven before God right now. This is how great God's mercy truly is!

So Davidic, what do you think Pope Francis' answer to Emanuelle should be if Emanuelle tells Pope Francis that his atheist dad is a 'bad man'?

Your example is a logical fallacy, a combination of red herring, straw man, and false dilemma. It seems relevant but is not the topic because it did not happen and appeals to sentiment, it is not the argument being made and it sets up a false either or in the situation. So it is a threefold fallacy in the argument.

Emanuel did not say his father was bad, he said something that hit right to what the Divine Mercy (which you originally presented incorrectly), St. Frances De Sales and others have held is representative of leaving the hearts door ajar to grace. The Church is not eager to take God's place in deciding definitively who is in hell, no matter how much some are. And She gives us guidance on where mercy may be. The boys father met that hope. The Pope is not saying bad people who reject God go to heaven in some kind of universal salvation. If the boy had said that his father was unrepentant and bad, had sinned and refused to let Gods name be cursed in his home and prevented his children were prevented from knowing God...the Pope should have answered differently because the answer of the Church would be different. But that did not happen. This goes all the way back and is related to the righteous pagan in Catholic theology.

 

[football5680]

My answer would be no, because they have rejected God but I would find it extremely difficult to tell this to a kid. In this case, if the father happened to be agnostic as well as a good man, then based on what Saint Paul said in Romans 2:13-16, I would say there is a chance. In the end, judgment belongs to God so I have no right to definitively say what will happen to anybody.

 

[Trimeresurus]

Eh. It... depends.

.. on what?

 

[Davidnic]

.. on what?

If someone has not had the fullness of truth presented to them or it was presented in a way that worked counter to faith.

For example, many Catholics have an incomplete understanding of their faith and the Church has suffered from poor teaching of its youth in the last several decades. This has caused many people to misunderstand what the Church teaches. Also the actions and scandal caused by some might lead someone to have an inaccurate view of the Catholic Church. And perhaps one that leads to an invincible ignorance that can not be overcome.

This is not a reason to be lax on spreading the Gospel. It does not mean that God will sort it out so it is not important what someone believes. That is Universalism. But it does mean that God alone knows the obstacles that keep someone from Christianity in general and the Catholic Church specifically. So we do not know the disposition of any soul outside of the Saints.

We know what the normative path to heaven is and it is our job to present and stand by that path. But God can, and we teach, does work outside of that as He sees fit. But we do not presume it or expect it...we hope and leave it to Him while we work to make sure fewer people fall into that area than, sadly, currently do. It should not be a signal for us to be lax on presenting the truth, but rather a force that compels us to do so.

Often it is the poor example of those in the Church who cause someone to be divided from the Church. In those cases and other situations God judges if the ignorance was invincible and the impediments insurmountable in relation to how He gave them Grace and the situations that prevented them from working with that Grace.

 

[thecolorsblend]

.. on what?

Culpability, mostly. We’re not all equally culpable so we’re not all necessarily held to the same standards. God will judge according to people’s knowledge and understanding.

For me, best practice is remaining as faithful a Catholic as possible because I think my culpability is pretty high. I cannot and will not speculate on anybody else’s judgment.

 

[Phil 1:21]

.. on what?

Whether one is trying to be politically correct or speak the truth.

 

[Trimeresurus]

Culpability, mostly. We’re not all equally culpable so we’re not all necessarily held to the same standards. God will judge according to people’s knowledge and understanding.

For me, best practice is remaining as faithful a Catholic as possible because I think my culpability is pretty high. I cannot and will not speculate on anybody else’s judgment.

That actually makes sense.
If there is an all-knowing god who decides if one is going to heaven or not you wouldn't be able to fully understand his decussions anyway. Just because you don't know it all. Judging others is what people do to fatter themselves. To me it is a sign of weakness.

 

[StevenMerten]

So the Pope is telling the world that there is no more need of a Pope, or a Church? This is kind of strange. When Jesus started His Church, Catholics offered up their lives as martyrs to bring Jesus’ Salvation to the world. Christ’s Church, the Catholic Church, was the Lampstand from which Jesus shined His light of Salvation to the world. Priests, Nuns and laity, devoted their lives to building up the Church to its present 1.3 billion members. Now the Church has a new teaching in that anyone, and almost everyone, if not all, are going to heaven with absolutely no need of Christ's Catholic Church? Wow! That’s a switch; Not to long ago it was ‘no salvation outside the Catholic Church!’

Can you imagine how it is going to be? ‘Kid’s, it's time to get up and go to Mass’; ‘Dad! the Church teaches that Jesus saves everyone, even atheists. Are the atheists getting up for Mass? No! Let us sleep! The atheists do not have to study their Catechism, and they are going to heaven! Confession, Baptism, Eucharist, prayer, repentance, all unneeded to go to heaven through Jesus', because of Jesus' tremendous mercy, according to Pope Francis! Give it up dad!’

So what will the Catholic Church do without her mission from Jesus to bring the nations to Salvation? Maybe we can rent out some of our churches to the Protestants or something.

 

[Davidnic]

So the Pope is telling the world that there is no more need of a Pope, or a Church?

Nope not at all. The Church has held this belief since the Early Church Fathers and there is still a need for the Church and the Great Commission.

If you read the Popes answer in any other way then you're reading it wrong. The Church does not teach Universalism, nor did the Pope endorse that and move outside the bounds of accepted teaching.

 

[StevenMerten]

If you read the Popes answer in any other way then you're reading it wrong. The Church does not teach Universalism, nor did the Pope endorse that and move outside the bounds of accepted teaching.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has life eternal. Whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure the wrath of God.​

Hello Davidic,

Let us define ‘universal salvation’ for those who are not familiar with the term.

A father tells his children not to play in the street. So his children cry, wine, and throw a temper tantrum. Finally the father tells his kids they can continue to play in the street if that will make them happy and love him. The children jump up and down for joy and are thankful that they have a father who ‘loves’ them. It is all fine and good, until a bus drives by and runs over them all and they all die.

I have a web page where I have posted forty-five verses where Jesus tells us He is going to burn someone in hell, or not forgive someone. A person wrote me in an uproar, “How could you make Jesus look so hateful and evil!”

The universal salvation guys hate Jesus’ many warnings on eternal damnation. They see Jesus warnings of hell and damnation as a God of hate for doing so. So the universal salvation guys just simply ignore the half of the bible, and modern locutions from Jesus, where they see Jesus warnings of eternal damnation, and focus only on the half of the bible which Jesus is talking about giving Eternal life. The universal salvation guys defy and oppose Jesus teachings on hell and damnation, to give atheists and agnostics great joy and comfort in their continued rejection of Jesus.

Locutions from Jesus and apparitions from the Blessed Mother have warned us that the bus is coming and it is now time to warn the atheist children to get off the street. Jesus tells us through St. Faustina, that He is giving atheists one last chance, through His Divine Mercy Chaplet, or face eternal damnation.

Jesus, The Divine Mercy
by St. Faustina​

“Jesus looked at me and said, Souls perish in spite of My bitter Passion. I am giving them the last hope of salvation; that is, the Feast of My Mercy. If they will not adore My mercy, they will perish for all eternity. Secretary of My mercy, write, tell souls about this great mercy of Mine, because the awful day, the day of My justice, is near.” (Diary 965)

“There are souls who despise My graces as well as all the proofs of My love. They do not wish to hear My call, but proceed into the abyss of hell. The loss of these souls plunges Me into deadly sorrow. God though I am, I cannot help such a soul because it scorns Me; having a free will, it can spurn Me or love Me.” (Diary 580)

“Write: I am Thrice Holy, and detest the smallest sin. I cannot love a soul which is stained with sin; but when it repents, there is no limit to My generosity toward it. My mercy embraces and justifies it. With My mercy, I pursue sinners along all their paths, and My Heart rejoices when they return to Me. I forget the bitterness with which they fed My Heart and rejoice at their return.
Tell sinners that no one shall escape My Hand; if they run away from My merciful Heart, they will fall into My Just Hands. Tell sinners that I am always waiting for them, that I listen intently to the beating of their heart... When will it beat for Me?” (Diary 1728)

“Oh, if sinners knew My mercy, they would not perish in such great numbers. Tell sinful souls not to be afraid to approach Me; speak to them of My great mercy.”(Diary 1396)

March 25, 1936. “Then I saw the Mother of God, who said to me, Oh, how pleasing to God is the soul that follows faithfully the inspirations of His grace! I gave the Savior to the world; as for you, you have to speak to the world about His great mercy and prepare the world for the Second Coming of Him who will come, not as a merciful Savior, but as a just Judge. Oh, how terrible is that day! Determined is the day of justice, the day of divine wrath. The angels tremble before it. Speak to souls about this great mercy while it is still the time for [granting] mercy. If you keep silent now, you will be answering for a great number of souls on that terrible day. Fear nothing. Be faithful to the end. I sympathize with you.” (Diary 635)​

Quoted from: www.divinemercy.com

 

[ripple the car]

As I was about to type out a very critical post about what the Holy Father said, I was reminded inwardly of all the stupid, kind, theologically incorrect things I've said just to make someone comfortable or happy. I do that a lot, especially when caught off guard and in face to face conversations with little time to think, much less type out or edit what I say.

I think if in the Holy Father's shoes, I might have said something very similar. That does not mean that his answer may have been the wisest thing to say. Or even that he is correct. But there is a chance to hope in the atheist father's conversion at death, and I think the Divine Mercy Revelation even describes Divine Mercy pursuiting the soul even at the point of death, as the door is closing.

I think it is wise and charitable to consider how often we may mis-speak in unplanned, sensitive situations, especially if someone's in tears. I sure do. It can be very, very tough to walk the line between being correct, and gracious.

 

[SaNcTaMaRiA]

The Pope's answer was pastoral and correct for the context and the moment.

How does the pope in front of the media and kids tell a grieving crying nervous scared little boy that his father is probably in hell? Is that his job to tell the boy that? We don't know the repose of this man's soul. What we do know is that he baptized his children and was allowing them to be raised Catholic. Perhaps the man is in hell. Perhaps he is in purgatory. At the end of the day to hope is better then to despair and to believe in mercy is better then telling a little boy his father whom he loves is burning in eternal hell.

 

[StevenMerten]

Let’s say you see a young boy in Chile, and he is crying. You ask him why he is crying and he tells you that he was molested by a known child molester Priest, whom was kept on duty by a known cover up bishop, that was reinstated by Pope Francis. So you tell the young boy, ‘Pope Francis and his band of chid molesters are going to hell!’ Then the boy starts to smile a little, simply at the thought of Justice. You are not judging Pope Francis’ soul, but just trying to console a child victims broken heart. Is it ok to do this?

 

[ripple the car]

Let’s say you see a young boy in Chile, and he is crying. You ask him why he is crying and he tells you that he was molested by a known child molester Priest, whom was kept on duty by a known cover up bishop, that was reinstated by Pope Francis. So you tell the young boy, ‘Pope Francis and his band of chid molesters are going to hell!’ Then the boy starts to smile a little, simply at the thought of Justice. You are not judging Pope Francis’ soul, but just trying to console a child victims broken heart. Is it ok to do this?

I think this would be an incredibly unwise and perilous thing to say. To pronounce that the Holy Father will go to Hell is not a small deal.