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Do "good" atheists go to heaven?

StevenMerten

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I think this would be an incredibly unwise and perilous thing to say. To pronounce that the Holy Father will go to Hell is not a small deal.
Hello Garcia,

I see someone openly defying Christ’s Words, as an incredibly unwise and perilous thing to do.

Jesus, The Divine Mercy
by St. Faustina

There are souls who despise My graces as well as all the proofs of My love. They do not wish to hear My call, but proceed into the abyss of hell.The loss of these souls plunges Me into deadly sorrow. God though I am, I cannot help such a soul because it scorns Me; having a free will, it can spurn Me or love Me.” (Diary 580)
 
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StevenMerten

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The Pope is in line with church teaching since Apostolic times you are not.
Hello Davidic,
Are you saying that the Church teaches that if an atheist dies it is safe to say that he is in heaven? I do need a source on that.
 
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Davidnic

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As has been mentioned several times the church teaches we don't know the final disposition of anyone. The Divine Mercy shows that if the heart was even slightly ajar to God God can work miracles in their salvation outside the sacraments. The church has taught about Invincible ignorance and the righteous pagan and varients of that since Apostolic times.
 
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StevenMerten

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Hello Davidic,
We are talking about what to tell two little boys who are grieving. Is it ok to tell them people are in heaven or hell to comfort them? We are not actually judging anyone’s final resting place.
 
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Davidnic

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No we are talking about what the Pope said and how it is in line with Catholic theology. Anything else is a logical fallacy or series of them.

An atheist who, through no fault of their own did not know God enough to overcome their view but kept their heart open could be saved by God's extra sacramental action outside the normative method of salvation that we know. That is the truth the Pope expressed to the child without going into the deep theology. It was a pastoral explanation of our constant teaching since the beginning. God would not abandon a good person who left their heart open to Him despite invincible ignorance. That is what the Pope explained.
 
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StevenMerten

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Does everyone understand that if an atheist repents and believes in Jesus in the last seconds of his life, then he dies a Christian, not an atheist. Pope Francis is not talking about that here. Pope Francis is telling us that a non converted heart atheist is in heaven.
 
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Davidnic

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Nope he's not. He is saying God does not close the door if the person does not close the door. Just like the Divine Mercy says and constant teaching has said. We can not know but we can point to indications with hope. Just like the Pope did.
 
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fat wee robin

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You would be thinking incorrectly then. And not viewing the work in its totality or correctly in reference to the last hope of salvation in the personal revelation.

Entry 1507
All grace flows from mercy, and the last hour abounds with mercy for us. Let no one doubt concerning the goodness of God; even if a person's sins were as dark as night, God's mercy is stronger than our misery. One thing alone is necessary: that the sinner set ajar the door of his heart, be it ever so little, to let in a ray of God's merciful grace, and then God will do the rest. But poor is the soul who has shut the door on God's mercy, even at the last hour. It was just such souls who plunged Jesus into deadly sorrow in the Garden of Olives; indeed, it was from His Most Merciful Heart that divine mercy flowed out.

We do not know the man's moment of death or last hour. But we do have some indication that the door was not completely closed. The Church has always held the last decision outside the normative means of salvation is up to God. And the Pope was perfectly in line with that.
Thank you for 1507 .It is marked .
 
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StevenMerten

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Thank you for 1507 .It is marked .

Jesus, The Divine Mercy
by St. Faustina​

In the Old Covenant I sent prophets wielding thunderbolts to My people. Today I am sending you with My mercy to the people of the whole world. I do not want to punish aching mankind, but I desire to heal it, pressing it to My Merciful Heart. I use punishment when they themselves force Me to do so; My hand is reluctant to take hold of the sword of justice, Before the Day of Justice I am sending the Day of Mercy. I replied, “O my Jesus, speak to souls Yourself, because my words are insignificant.” (diary 1588)​


Hello fat wee robin,

St. Faustina’s entry 1507 is her personal comments, not Jesus', the Father's or the Blessed Mother’s Words. 1507 is not at the end of St. Faustina’s diary as others want you to believe. Beyond 1507, in 1588 St. Faustina begs Jesus to tell us of His Plan, Himself, because her words are insignificant. Jesus refers to St. Faustina as His secretary. Do not let Jesus Words get lost in the shorthand dictation of the secretary, when the difference between Eternal death and Eternal life, for billions of souls, is at stake!

I warn you, do not throw out all the Words of Jesus’, The Father’s, the Blessed Mother’s, and all the apocalyptic prophets of the Word of the Bible, for one small quotation from St. Faustina. God knows how the Second Coming is going to go down, stick with Jesus’ The Blessed Mother, and the Father’s words about Christ’s impending, disastrous, Second Coming. I do not even understand how 1507 is somehow, now, being contrived into opposing the Word of God.

My daughter, tell souls that I am giving them My mercy as a defense. I Myself am fighting for them and am bearing the just anger of My Father. (Diary 1516)​
 
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Davidnic

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You could also go with the constant teaching of the Church which is not private Revelation but part of the deposit of faith. As explained by Pope Benedict XVI:


Furthermore, the salvific action of Jesus Christ, with and through his Spirit, extends beyond the visible boundaries of the Church to all humanity. Speaking of the paschal mystery, in which Christ even now associates the believer to himself in a living manner in the Spirit and gives him the hope of resurrection, the Council states: “All this holds true not only for Christians but also for all men of good will in whose hearts grace is active invisibly. For since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery”.

Again in line with constant teaching and go all the way back to righteous Pagan through Anonymous Christian to Pope Benedict XVI and Pope Francis.

Like the Church teaches we don't know what Invincible ignorance exists in a person so we take small Hope from the actions we can see that a man might have left his heart open to the grace of God and can confidently state that God with the heart of a father would not abandon His children if that was the case.

It really isn't confusing or unclear and the Pope was not wrong.
 
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StevenMerten

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You could also go with the constant teaching of the Church which is not private Revelation but part of the deposit of faith. As explained by Pope Benedict XVI:


Furthermore, the salvific action of Jesus Christ, with and through his Spirit, extends beyond the visible boundaries of the Church to all humanity. Speaking of the paschal mystery, in which Christ even now associates the believer to himself in a living manner in the Spirit and gives him the hope of resurrection, the Council states: “All this holds true not only for Christians but also for all men of good will in whose hearts grace is active invisibly. For since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery”.

Again in line with constant teaching and go all the way back to righteous Pagan through Anonymous Christian to Pope Benedict XVI and Pope Francis.

Like the Church teaches we don't know what Invincible ignorance exists in a person so we take small Hope from the actions we can see that a man might have left his heart open to the grace of God and can confidently state that God with the heart of a father would not abandon His children if that was the case.

It really isn't confusing or unclear and the Pope was not wrong.

John 5:27
"The Father has given over to him power to pass judgment because he is Son of Man; no need for you to be surprised at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in their tombs shall hear his voice and come forth. Those who have done right shall rise to live; the evildoers shall rise to be damned."

Hello Davidic,
Jesus tells us, The Father has given over to him power to pass judgment because he is Son of Man. I would prefer that it is Jesus judging the heart of the atheist into or out of heaven rather than Pope Francis.
 
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StevenMerten

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So Pope Francis tells us that "good" atheists go to heaven and Pope Francis has made it clear that the Protestants go to heaven, but what about the present day Catholic schismatic’s? I can remember when it was felt in devout Catholic circles that the Protestants were going to hell. This Catholic mentality toward the Protestants has changed, and now the Pope is teaching us that even the atheists are going to heaven, but what about the modern day Catholic schismatic’s? For four hundred years plus the Church taught ‘No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church’ and it kept many a devout Catholic from crossing the line to Protestantism. Pope John Paul II excommunicated the schismatic SSPX guys. It seems the only guys presently in danger of eternal damnation, in the eyes of the Vatican, are the modern day Catholic schismatics. Does anyone know Pope Francis’ feelings toward the salvation of the modern day Catholic schismatics, who are presently threatening to lead a large portion of Catholics away from his papal authority as Vicar of Christ, from within the Catholic Church?
 
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StevenMerten

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Jesus’ Commissions His Apostles to spread His Gospel of Salvation to the world! Jesus tells His Apostles that whoever rejects His Gospel, tell them to go to hell.

Luke 10:8
Whatever town you enter and they welcome you, eat what is set before you, cure the sick in it and say to them, 'The kingdom of God is at hand for you.' Whatever town you enter and they do not receive you, go out into the streets and say, 'The dust of your town that clings to our feet, even that we shake off against you.' Yet know this: the kingdom of God is at hand. I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom on that day than for that town. "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty deeds done in your midst had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would long ago have repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. But it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you. And as for you, Capernaum, 'Will you be exalted to heaven? You will go down to the netherworld.'" Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me."

Matthew 12:42
"At the judgment the queen of the south will arise with this generation and condemn it , because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and there is something greater than Solomon here.

Matthew 10:32
Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.



Luke 8:11 The Parable of the Sower Explained.
“This is the meaning of the parable. The seed is the word of God. Those on the path are the ones who have heard, but the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts that they may not believe and be saved.
 
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Davidnic

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Again rather than gymnastics we can go with the clear statements of how it is all constantly applied:

You could also go with the constant teaching of the Church which is not private Revelation but part of the deposit of faith. As explained by Pope Benedict XVI:


Furthermore, the salvific action of Jesus Christ, with and through his Spirit, extends beyond the visible boundaries of the Church to all humanity. Speaking of the paschal mystery, in which Christ even now associates the believer to himself in a living manner in the Spirit and gives him the hope of resurrection, the Council states: “All this holds true not only for Christians but also for all men of good will in whose hearts grace is active invisibly. For since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery”.

Again in line with constant teaching and go all the way back to righteous Pagan through Anonymous Christian to Pope Benedict XVI and Pope Francis.

Like the Church teaches we don't know what Invincible ignorance exists in a person so we take small Hope from the actions we can see that a man might have left his heart open to the grace of God and can confidently state that God with the heart of a father would not abandon His children if that was the case.

It really isn't confusing or unclear and the Pope was not wrong.
 
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Davidnic

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From St. Pope John Paul II:

The Council recognized that, by not always showing the true face of God, believers may have contributed to the rise of atheism (cf. Gaudium et spes, n. 19; CCC, n. 2125). In this regard, it is bearing witness to the real face of God that gives the most convincing response to atheism.

This obviously does not exclude, but rather demands a correct presentation of the rational reasons that lead to the recognition of God. Unfortunately, these reasons are often obscured by the influence of sin and of many cultural circumstances. The Gospel message, confirmed by the witness of a sensible charity (cf. Gaudium et spes, n. 21), is thus the most effective way for people to understand something of God's goodness and gradually to recognize his merciful face.
 
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Davidnic

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And section 21 of GS that he quotes:


In her loyal devotion to God and men, the Church has already repudiated(16) and cannot cease repudiating, sorrowfully but as firmly as possible, those poisonous doctrines and actions which contradict reason and the common experience of humanity, and dethrone man from his native excellence.

Still, she strives to detect in the atheistic mind the hidden causes for the denial of God; conscious of how weighty are the questions which atheism raises, and motivated by love for all men, she believes these questions ought to be examined seriously and more profoundly.

The Church holds that the recognition of God is in no way hostile to man's dignity, since this dignity is rooted and perfected in God. For man was made an intelligent and free member of society by God Who created him, but even more important, he is called as a son to commune with God and share in His happiness. She further teaches that a hope related to the end of time does not diminish the importance of intervening duties but rather undergirds the acquittal of them with fresh incentives. By contrast, when a divine instruction and the hope of life eternal are wanting, man's dignity is most grievously lacerated, as current events often attest; riddles of life and death, of guilt and of grief go unsolved with the frequent result that men succumb to despair.

Meanwhile every man remains to himself an unsolved puzzle, however obscurely he may perceive it. For on certain occasions no one can entirely escape the kind of self-questioning mentioned earlier, especially when life's major events take place. To this questioning only God fully and most certainly provides an answer as He summons man to higher knowledge and humbler probing.

The remedy which must be applied to atheism, however, is to be sought in a proper presentation of the Church's teaching as well as in the integral life of the Church and her members. For it is the function of the Church, led by the Holy Spirit Who renews and purifies her ceaselessly,(17) to make God the Father and His Incarnate Son present and in a sense visible. This result is achieved chiefly by the witness of a living and mature faith, namely, one trained to see difficulties clearly and to master them. Many martyrs have given luminous witness to this faith and continue to do so. This faith needs to prove its fruitfulness by penetrating the believer's entire life, including its worldly dimensions, and by activating him toward justice and love, especially regarding the needy. What does the most reveal God's presence, however, is the brotherly charity of the faithful who are united in spirit as they work together for the faith of the Gospel(18) and who prove themselves a sign of unity.

While rejecting atheism, root and branch, the Church sincerely professes that all men, believers and unbelievers alike, ought to work for the rightful betterment of this world in which all alike live; such an ideal cannot be realized, however, apart from sincere and prudent dialogue. Hence the Church protests against the distinction which some state authorities make between believers and unbelievers, with prejudice to the fundamental rights of the human person. The Church calls for the active liberty of believers to build up in this world God's temple too. She courteously invites atheists to examine the Gospel of Christ with an open mind.

Above all the Church knows that her message is in harmony with the most secret desires of the human heart when she champions the dignity of the human vocation, restoring hope to those who have already despaired of anything higher than their present lot. Far from diminishing man, her message brings to his development light, life and freedom. Apart from this message nothing will avail to fill up the heart of man: "Thou hast made us for Thyself," O Lord, "and our hearts are restless till they rest in Thee."(19)
 
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Davidnic

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The Popes are clear on how no salvation outside the church is applied. This is backed up again from the righteous Pagan to the anonymous Christian.

I'm not willing to accept that Vatican Council II is wrong, St. Pope John Paul II, and Pope Benedict XVI are Heretics. Which is what the acceptance of the argument that Pope Francis is wrong here would imply.
 
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StevenMerten

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Hello Davidic,

So what do you think of the exploding trend of Catholic parents to raise their children as good atheists?

The Catholic Church, for millenniums, used the ‘Keys to the Kingdom’ of binding and loosting sins, through the threat of excommunication on rebellious Catholics and the Sacrament of Reconciliation to the repentant Catholics, to guide Catholics to Eternal Life in Jesus Christ.

Pope Francis has condemned Cardinal Burke as Satan for simply asking a question on clarity of papal teaching. Pope John Paul II has excommunicated the SSPX guys for their desire to use the Traditional Mass. Now Pope Francis is blessing deceased atheists with Eternal Life.

I can see the logic in Catholic parents raising their children as good atheists, for the purpose of getting them into heaven, by circumventing Catholic disciplinary actions against Catholics. Though I painfully disagree with doing so.

I think that this modern push toward atheism is very painful to our Saviour Jesus and God the Father.
 
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