Do "good" atheists go to heaven?

[Davidnic]

Pope Francis has never said the good Cardinal is Satan.

 

[Davidnic]

And most Catholic parents today don't need to intentionally raise atheists. The relativism in the world combined with Catholics own lack of knowledge of their own faith do it for them. Add to that the poor witness and theological inaccuracies they see from other Catholics and it is not an intentional trend as much as done for them.

 

[StevenMerten]

And most Catholic parents today don't need to intentionally raise atheists. The relativism in the world combined with Catholics own lack of knowledge of their own faith do it for them. Add to that the poor witness and theological inaccuracies they see from other Catholics and it is not an intentional trend as much as done for them.

Hello Davidic,
I am not sure I understand what you are saying.

Are you saying that Pope Francis should abolish the mountains of Catholic auto-excommunications, and auto-anathema's, presently on the books, initiated over the millenniums by Popes, then Catholics, presently raising their children as atheists, would be more likely to bring their children into the Faith? There is auto-excommunication just for leaving the Catholic Church. It's a sin to miss Mass on Holy Days of Obligation. Are you thinking Pope Francis should abolish all these obstacles from the Catholic Church, which could cause you to go to hell, to make it just as easy for a Catholic to go to heaven as the Pope Francis indicates the atheists have it?

 

[Davidnic]

Nope not even remotely saying that.

 

[StevenMerten]

No Salvation Outside the (Catholic) Church​

Saint Thomas Aquinas (died A.D. 1274):

"There is no entering into salvation outside the Church, just as in the time of the deluge there was none outside the ark, which denotes the Church." (Summa Theologiae)

Saint Augustine (died A.D. 430):

"No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church." (Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesia plebem)


Saint Fulgentius (died A.D. 533):

"Most firmly hold and never doubt that not only pagans, but also all Jews, all heretics, and all schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Church, will go into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Enchiridion Patristicum)​

The Blessed Mother and Jesus, through modern apparitions and locutions over the last few hundred years, have announced the Second Coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as King and Ruler of the world. Christ’s Second Coming will be the ‘Wedding Day of the Lamb’. Jesus has sent out His Wedding invitations and we are all to immerse ourselves in the Divine Mercy of His Blood, through the Catholic Divine Mercy Chaplet and the Catholic Sacrament of Reconciliation. Jesus will Come and burn in hell all those not wearing the Wedding Garment He has offered to His Bride, and then reside in the Body of His Church, the Catholic Church, on earth, as we go into Messianic Reign. I have to ask, What about the Protestants?

Last I heard there are 60,000 Protestant sects. So some guy takes a couple online courses and gets his ‘ordained minister’ Protestant license in the mail, pulls open the Bible and starts telling young couples ‘In the Name of Jesus Christ, I pronounce you man an wife’, in his basement, next to his cannabis garden. Did Jesus and the Blessed Mother forget to send this guy an apparition to tell him of Jesus Wedding Day upon the Second Coming? Sorry Martin Luther followers, and all Protestants, and all outside the Body of the Catholic Church! Jesus sent out the Protestants invitation, to His Wedding Day to His Bride, to the Protestants home address, the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is the only place a Protestant can put on Christ’s garment of Divine Mercy in preparation for the Wedding Day of the Lamb.

There are no Presbyterians, Methodists or Lutherans entering into heaven, only rebellious, schismatic Catholics who spent their lives as Presbyterians, Methodists and Lutherans, who Jesus forgives for their evil in not being Catholic, and Jesus lets them into heaven as Catholics.

Apparitions and Locutions from the Blessed Mother and Jesus indicate that God is furious with the unrepentant wicked and, on His Burn Hell, all the unrepentant wicked mode. It is going to be almost impossible for a Catholic to get to heaven, if that Catholic is not robed in Christ’s Catholic Divine Mercy upon His Second Coming. So some atheist, who rejected Jesus as Jesus looked up into his eyes as his baptized sons; An atheist who rejected Jesus whom he shared the blessing of Holy Matrimony with in the form of his devout Catholic wife; an atheist whom breathed his last breath rejecting Jesus as Jesus, in the form of His Church, the atheist’s wife and sons, cried and begged him to let Jesus into his heart; stands before Jesus claiming ‘invincible ignorance’!

When Catholic Church Fathers talk about ‘No Salvation Outside the (Catholic Church), the ‘schismatic’s’ they refer to are the Protestants and the ‘heretics’ are the wicked who claim there is salvation for atheists who claim ‘good’ atheists go to heaven outside of Jesus and His Church, the Catholic Church.

Saint Bede the Venerable (died A.D. 735):

"Just as all within the ark were saved and all outside of it were carried away when the flood came, so when all who are pre-ordained to eternal life have entered the Church, the end of the world will come and all will perish who are found outside." (Hexaemeron)

Saint Peter Canisius (died A.D. 1597):

"Outside of this communion – as outside of the ark of Noah – there is absolutely no salvation for mortals: not for Jews or pagans who never received the faith of the Church, nor for heretics who, having received it, corrupted it; neither for the excommunicated or those who for any other serious cause deserve to be put away and separated from the body of the Church like pernicious members…for the rule of Cyprian and Augustine is certain: he will not have God for his Father who would not have the Church for his mother." (Catechismi Latini et Germanici)

Saint Robert Bellarmine (died A.D. 1621):

"Outside the Church there is no salvation…therefore in the symbol [Apostles Creed] we join together the Church with the remission of sins: `I believe in the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins’…For this reason the Church is compared with the ark of Noah, because just as during the deluge, everyone perished who was not in the ark, so now those perish who are not in the Church." (De Sacramento Baptismi)

Fourth Lateran Council (1215): "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved."

Council of Florence, Cantate Domino (1441): "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." The same council also ruled that those who die in original sin, but without mortal sin, will also find punishment in hell, but unequally: "But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains."

All quotes from: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - Wikipedia​

 

[Meowzltov]

No Salvation Outside the (Catholic) Church

The Church still teaches this. What has changed is now we have a fuller understanding that ALL baptized believers have a certain communion with the Catholic Church.

 

[Davidnic]

All that was posted has to be read in light of the constant teaching that has been mentioned before involving the righteous Pagan and the anonymous Christian, as well as the teaching of yes there is no salvation outside the church but we know where the church is we do not know where it isn't.

Walls of out-of-context quotes don't change those two things or make St Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI Heretics.

 

[StevenMerten]

Council of Florence, Cantate Domino (1441): "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." The same council also ruled that those who die in original sin, but without mortal sin, will also find punishment in hell, but unequally: "But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains."
​

Hello Davidic,
Do you agree with the Catholic Church Council of Florence? The Council of Florence states that heretics burn in hell. In the article the author states that if Pope Francis were to have actually said that an atheist, (meaning an actual atheist which God looks into his heart and sees only total rejection of Jesus and His Catholic Church), then Pope Francis would be a heretic. Do you agree with the author on this?

​

Do ‘Good’ Atheists Go to Heaven?
quoted from the article
​

What should we make of this? First, we should push back hard against attempts by secular media or secularizing Christians to present this as a doctrine. “Pope says atheists can be saved if they are ‘good.’” That’s heresy. I wouldn’t even call it Pelagianism, because Pelagius was a Christian. He simply thought that you could be a worthy Christian (i.e., avoid sin, serve the poor, and love both God and your neighbor) by your own human efforts. You didn’t need God’s constant help via grace.

Asserting that good behavior saves atheists is a new teaching entirely. In fact, I’d say it’s part of the broader liberal instinct in Christian circles. I call it Pelagianism with very low standards. Or Mini-Pelagianism. (Think of “Mini-Me” from the Austin Powers movies … a very tiny heretic.)

We can do all that God expects from us by our efforts because it isn’t very much. Just serve social justice, check your privilege, and as Google says, “Don’t be evil.” Needless to say, throughout the Gospels Jesus said something quite different.​

Heresy​

Heresy is a teaching or practice which denies one or more essentials of the Christian faith, divides Christians, and deserves condemnation. The term is derived from the Greek word hairesis, literally meaning a choice, but referring more specifically to a sect, party or disunion. Luke uses the term in Acts to refer to the sects of the Sadducees (5:17), Pharisees (15:5; 26:5), and even the Christians - called Nazarenes and the Way (24:5,14; 28:22). When Paul uses the term in 1 Corinthians and Galatians, he refers to the divisions which cause strife in the church, while Peter links the term to false prophets and teachers.​

​

While there is a temptation for Christians to label whatever is not in keeping with sound doctrine as heresy, the Bible seems to make the distinction that heresy is not merely the opposite of orthodoxy. Rather, heresy is a divisive teaching or practice which forces those who call themselves Christians to separate from it or face condemnation for it. John the Apostle gave a prime example of such a doctrine: denying the true nature of the person and work of Jesus Christ (I John 4:1-3; 2 John 1:7-11).
quoted from: https://www.theopedia.com/heresy​

Jesus, The Divine Mercy
by St. Faustina​

“There are souls who despise My graces as well as all the proofs of My love. They do not wish to hear My call, but proceed into the abyss of hell.The loss of these souls plunges Me into deadly sorrow. God though I am, I cannot help such a soul because it scorns Me; having a free will, it can spurn Me or love Me.” (Diary 580)​

 

[Davidnic]

Taken out of context the Council of Florence also claims that limbo is not just a Pious opinion bene funda and the Pope Benedict XVI would now be a heretic.

Taken in context and with the proper explanation of church teaching Pope Benedict XVI is of course completely right.

The same thing goes for again for the righteous Pagan and Anonymous Christian and Pope Benedict XVI, St Pope John Paul II, and Pope Francis. Which, the extrapolation of, is the case that applies to the boy's father in the story.

If you look at the context of what Pope Francis said he obviously indicated that the man did not reject God in his heart from the available evidence. So he wouldn't be an atheist in obstimate denial with raised hand as the church would put it.

No Pope has suggested that an atheist whose heart remains closed, even face to face with Christ, when God looks into their heart would go to heaven.

 

[StevenMerten]

Taken out of context the Council of Florence also claims that limbo is not just a Pious opinion bene funda and the Pope Benedict XVI would now be a heretic.

Taken in context and with the proper explanation of church teaching Pope Benedict XVI is of course completely right.

The same thing goes for again for the righteous Pagan and Anonymous Christian and Pope Benedict XVI, St Pope John Paul II, and Pope Francis. Which, the extrapolation of, is the case that applies to the boy's father in the story.

If you look at the context of what Pope Francis said he obviously indicated that the man did not reject God in his heart from the available evidence. So he wouldn't be an atheist in obstimate denial with raised hand as the church would put it

No Pope has suggested that an atheist whose heart remains closed, even face to face with Christ, when God looks into their heart would go to heaven.

Hello Davidic,

The little boy does not know deep theology, he is just a kid. The little boy does know that Jesus is going to burn in hell “an atheist whose heart remains closed”, as do we all. The little boy, who, with tears in his eyes, along with his mother and brother, was begging his father to let Jesus into his heart, only sees his father’s total rejection of God upon his death.

Pope Francis, switching to the possibility that the man probably did accept Jesus a little is what the author suggests Pope Francis do, in a private setting. We all agree that Pope Francis cannot actually judge anyone’s heart, this is for Jesus to do. The author suggests, as Pope Francis does, that a little deception is ok, in private, to ease the child’s aching heart.

The author goes on that because the Popes words were not kept private, but made public across the whole world, the Pope now needs to correct his statement to the masses, with what you said, Church Teaching, “No Pope has suggested that an atheist whose heart remains closed, even face to face with Christ, when God looks into their heart would go to heaven.” If Pope Francis fails to do this, he is spreading heresy by default and leading the whole Church into heresy and away from Jesus. Cardinal Burke and many people believe that Pope Francis is using his position, as Vicar of Christ, to spread heresy through the use of ‘off the cuff’ heretical remarks, which he then does not correct publically, to protect the flock, from being lead into heresy, and eternal damnation. Can we assume that the Council of Trent was also referring to heresy upon the flock, inflicted by the manipulation of 'off the cuff' remarks, which are not then publicly clarified with actual Church Teaching, by a Church teacher? The whole reason for the Council of Florence to enact Jesus' 'Keys to the Kingdom', of eternal damnation on heretics, is to protect Christ's Flock from heresy.

We both agree that it would be a total abomination from hell if Pope Francis' remarks, to a little greving boy, led the whole Catholic Church astray from Jesus' exact Words condemning atheists to hell, right?

Do ‘Good’ Atheists Go to Heaven?
​

This is a pastoral, and not a doctrinal moment. That’s why it should have stayed private. But since Pope Francis seems to have wanted it made public, fine. What he said needs public correction. A better answer would have been something much more like this:​

“Young man, you are speaking of mysteries. None of us knows for certain what happens to a soul when it meets God. Your father said he was an atheist, but are you even sure that’s true? He baptized you. He had you raised as a Christian. Would you teach your child something you were certain was a lie? Perhaps on some level your father did believe. We can’t know for sure. It’s between him and God. So pray for your father, always. And imagine the man you knew meeting a loving God. And leave such mysteries for the next life, when all our questions will be answered.”​

Jesus, The Divine Mercy
by St. Faustina​

“There are souls who despise My graces as well as all the proofs of My love. They do not wish to hear My call, but proceed into the abyss of hell.The loss of these souls plunges Me into deadly sorrow. God though I am, I cannot help such a soul because it scorns Me; having a free will, it can spurn Me or love Me.” (Diary 580)​

 

[Rhamiel]

Taken out of context the Council of Florence also claims that limbo is not just a Pious opinion bene funda and the Pope Benedict XVI would now be a heretic.

Taken in context and with the proper explanation of church teaching Pope Benedict XVI is of course completely right.

The same thing goes for again for the righteous Pagan and Anonymous Christian and Pope Benedict XVI, St Pope John Paul II, and Pope Francis. Which, the extrapolation of, is the case that applies to the boy's father in the story.

If you look at the context of what Pope Francis said he obviously indicated that the man did not reject God in his heart from the available evidence. So he wouldn't be an atheist in obstimate denial with raised hand as the church would put it.

No Pope has suggested that an atheist whose heart remains closed, even face to face with Christ, when God looks into their heart would go to heaven.

Can you show we’re any of the Church fathers of the Council of Florence explained the context as to mean that heretics who have been told to repent and yet stay in heresy May be saved?

 

[Davidnic]

The little boy, who, with tears in his eyes, along with his mother and brother, was begging his father to let Jesus into his heart, only sees his father’s total rejection of God upon his death.

So you we're at the deathbed to describe the scene and also there when he came face-to-face with Christ to know final rejection?

What the pope said was that would God abandon his children if they were good and open to Him. And he highlighted The Hope from example that the father may have been open. That is all.

There is nothing against Catholic theology in that.

 

[Davidnic]

Can you show we’re any of the Church fathers of the Council of Florence explained the context as to mean that heretics who have been told to repent and yet stay in heresy May be saved?

Much like every Council they don't deal with things that they don't need to deal with. The previous teaching of the Church as far as the righteous pagan, which the Church applies to those not pagan who meet conditions, was not in dispute at the Council of Florence.

Heresy has several levels; formal and informal with different levels of culpability. There are issues of obstinacy, ignorance, and with hand raised. All of them have their own considerations.

 

[StevenMerten]

So you we're at the deathbed to describe the scene and also there when he came face-to-face with Christ to know final rejection?

What the pope said was that would God abandon his children if they were good and open to Him. And he highlighted The Hope from example that the father may have been open. That is all.

There is nothing against Catholic theology in that.

Hello Davidic,
What article are you reading? Pope Francis judged the atheist into heaven! Please confirm that you agree that Pope Francis, without God's vision into the atheists heart, judged the atheist into heaven.

Do ‘Good’ Atheists Go to Heaven?​

“My father died a short time ago. He was an atheist, but he baptized his four children. He was a good man. Is dad in Heaven?”

It’s nice that a son says that about his father, that he “was good.” If that man was able to raise his children like that, then he was a good man. God is proud of your father.” Do you think that God would be able to leave a man like him far from Him? Do you think that? Louder, with courage.”

No!

Pope Francis:

Does God abandon His children?

No!

Pope Francis:

Does God abandon His children when they are good?

No!​

Pope Francis:

Here, Emanuele, this is the answer. God surely was proud of your father, because it is easier when one is a believer to baptize his children, than to baptize them when you are an unbeliever. Surely God like this so much. Talk to your dad, pray for your dad. Thanks Emanuele for your courage.​

Maybe we should let Jesus, who can see men's hearts, do the judgement on eternal life or eternal damnation of atheists? What do you think?

John 5:27
"The Father has given over to him power to pass judgment because he is Son of Man; no need for you to be surprised at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in their tombs shall hear his voice and come forth. Those who have done right shall rise to live; the evildoers shall rise to be damned."​

 

[StevenMerten]

Matthew 13:34
All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables. He spoke to them only in parables, to fulfill what had been said through the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables, I will announce what has lain hidden from the foundation (of the world)."​

Here is a riddle for everyone. Jesus came to earth, and, using parables, told the world about the Kingdom of God, which is heaven. Scripture tells us that Jesus awesome news of the Kingdom of God has 'lain hidden from the foundation of the world'. So the question becomes, why would God hide the Kingdom of God, which means going to heaven, from man?

When I was really young, and inexperienced at scriptures, I pondered this riddle for years. I know the answer. Who else can reveal the answer to this riddle?

 

[Davidnic]

He never directly said definitively he was in heaven. He definitely implied it through the hope of how the man that had his children baptized and allowed them to be educated in their faith. This is in line with the theology stated before and if the pope is wrong and a heretic then so are St Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI.

He encouraged the boy to Hope. Encouraged him to talk and pray to his father. Just like we are encouraged to do so with all of those who's final disposition we don't know as well as the Saints whose disposition we do. We do this in the hope of salvation. If the father is in hell then prayers for his soul will go to the most forgotten soul in purgatory. And if he prays to his father as if he is in heaven and and he is not then the boy is making an act of faith in the existence of God.

Anyone who's studied pastoral theology knows the what the pope did was perfectly in line with church teaching.

The problem here is people are reading out of context dogmatic theology without pastoral theology.

Christ should definitely do the judging and He will. And the pope pointed out the hope of Salvation in the man's condition and urged the boys have faith in that hope and the Judgment of Christ.

That is how the dogmatic and pastoral parts of the theology relate. And they are in perfect accordance with what the church does.

 

[Anhelyna]

Steven

I frequently wonder why we ask questions such as this .

The only Person who knows who will go to heaven is surely Him Who made us.

Anything else is pure speculation

 

[Meowzltov]

Read the parable of the good Samaritan. Who does Jesus hold up as the example of love to follow? The pagan.

 

[Rhamiel]

He never directly said definitively he was in heaven. He definitely implied it through the hope of how the man that had his children baptized and allowed them to be educated in their faith. This is in line with the theology stated before and if the pope is wrong and a heretic then so are St Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI.

What about Pope Pious X?
Pope Leo XIII ?
Pope Pious IV?

You named 3 Popes who were contemporaries of each other
Pope Francis was made a Bishop by Pope John Paul II
So yes the last three Popes have had some ideas about salvation outside the Church
Let’s look back 100 years, 200 years, 300 years, 400 years, 500 years, 600 years
You see markedly different views
It seems the vast majority of Popes had a different idea about heretics and atheists

 

[Davidnic]

None of those popes ever opposed the righteous Pagan or a broad application of it depending on the circumstance as applicable when dogmatic and pastoral theology meet.

Of course it's not the normative way. But the point of the implied argument doesn't frame those Popes of being Heretics.

The Pope's I've mentioned are in line with constant teaching. it's out of context teaching that they're not in line with. And they don't have to be in line with that. The three popes I mention have quotes on the application of the theology.

You can actually include a couple others in there. So if the argument being made about salvation is correct then it is implied that Sede is correct... because there will be a line of multiple heretical Popes.

So obviously that argument and its implications are not correct and are not in proper context. The Church has never denied the mercy of God to anyone who is in imperfect Union with the visible Church through no fault of their own .

The danger is when someone takes it too far and warps the argument to say it means that we don't need to follow the Great Commission. That is why the church is so firm in the dogmatic pronunciations but compassionate in the Pastoral applications. That does not diminish the truth, but it is part of the church's long and ancient practice.

To be sure as we see with some of the German Bishops that pastoral application can be abused. But Pope Francis did not abuse that here. He applied it as multiple predecessors have shown to be appropriate.