Do gender roles still apply today?

Paidiske

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You always have a problem with a woman choosing to live that way? What if the woman learns the skills she needs and is prepared to make adjustments if anything ever happens to her husband, I wouldn’t see any problem with that.

You will note that my concerns were about vulnerability and lack of support. If she has a plan and the ability to support herself, then I'm less concerned. Basically it's about whether or not she's trapped.
 
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Enilorac

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My guess is that you have no problem with an individual woman deciding for herself if she wants to live domestically oriented while the husband is the financial support, but I think what you and Paidiske oppose in particular is the acknowledgment and practice of male headship. Being a headship proponent means more than just domestic orientation, it means the things I outlined in my original post.

Male "headship" is baloney. It's patriarchal subjection of women so men can feel better about themselves.

If you want to live that sort of life, have at it. Leave the rest of us out of it. Again, given what I know about your marital status and hometown, I would posit you don't have a whole lot of life experience outside your bubble. That's fine. Just stop thinking you can determine things for the rest of us with a whole lot of life experience under our belts. You are roughly the same age as my youngest child and well, he knows better than to talk that patriarchal baloney with me.

Get about 20 more years and a few thousand miles away from your bubble then talk about gender roles and the like. Until then, I'll give your posts all the consideration they're due.
 
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Male "headship" is baloney. It's patriarchal subjection of women so men can feel better about themselves.

If you want to live that sort of life, have at it. Leave the rest of us out of it. Again, given what I know about your marital status and hometown, I would posit you don't have a whole lot of life experience outside your bubble. That's fine. Just stop thinking you can determine things for the rest of us with a whole lot of life experience under our belts. You are roughly the same age as my youngest child and well, he knows better than to talk that patriarchal baloney with me.

Get about 20 more years and a few thousand miles away from your bubble then talk about gender roles and the like. Until then, I'll give your posts all the consideration they're due.
Your criticism of me is based on where I live? You don’t even know how long I lived here. I really don’t see why it would matter whether you grew up in a small town or not (or should grow up in a big city). I did not grow up in New Bern by the way, but it is an interesting town with lots of history, so there’s that.

What is curious to me is how you and Paidiske see male headship as a one to one ratio, that it will lead to women disparities. Yes, I get the data and I don't deny that some will use headship teaching as an excuse to behave poorly, but the way I see it there are marriages out there that don't have this abuse.
 
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Enilorac

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What is curious to me is how you and Paidiske see male headship as a one to one ratio, that it will lead to women disparities. Yes, I get the data and I don't deny that some will use headship teaching as an excuse to behave poorly, but the way I see it there are marriages out there that don't have this abuse.

However, abuse is MORE LIKELY in a "headship" situation. I lived it. It is unnecessary to have a "headship" in a marriage of two adults. "Headship" is an excuse for the subjection of women.

Regarding your personal info, again, you're the same age as my youngest kid. I'd no more take advice from him than I would from you. You're single, which means you're either never married or divorced. Either way, why should I take advice on a marital relationship from someone who either has never experienced it or failed at it?
 
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Paidiske

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What is curious to me is how you and Paidiske see male headship as a one to one ratio, that it will lead to women disparities. Yes, I get the data and I don't deny that some will use headship teaching as an excuse to behave poorly, but the way I see it there are marriages out there that don't have this abuse.

It is inherently abusive to disempower women. Which is what "headship" does. It's about power and control over women (at best, perhaps, in a very limited way).

There's nothing either good or necessary about it, and a lot that is inherently wrong.
 
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However, abuse is MORE LIKELY in a "headship" situation. I lived it. It is unnecessary to have a "headship" in a marriage of two adults. "Headship" is an excuse for the subjection of women.

Regarding your personal info, again, you're the same age as my youngest kid. I'd no more take advice from him than I would from you. You're single, which means you're either never married or divorced. Either way, why should I take advice on a marital relationship from someone who either has never experienced it or failed at it?
What wisdom do you have to offer me, in all seriousness. If I can’t offer any wisdom to you because of my age, then just say that. I don’t mind you telling me that I should “get educated” or have more life experiences, but it depends on what you mean by that. If all you mean is that I should read more and educate myself that’s fine but I don’t have an interest in going to college. Unless I find that a certain career path I’m called to take involves a college education, then I’ll think differently.
 
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Enilorac

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What wisdom do you have to offer me, in all seriousness. If I can’t offer any wisdom to you because of my age, then just say that. I don’t mind you telling me that I should “get educated” or have more life experiences, but it depends on what you mean by that. If all you mean is that I should read more and educate myself that’s fine but I don’t have an interest in going to college. Unless I find that a certain career path I’m called to take involves a college education, then I’ll think differently.

Get married, be married for 10+ years. Have a few kids, experience what life is like with a family. Keep the vows. Reading is no replacement for the day to day reality of marriage and family. See if you can find a woman who's willing to buy into the "headship" thing.

What wisdom do I have to offer? Hmm...age, marriage experiences, reality, raising children, survivor of domestic violence, education and career, being a woman who has dealt with this patriarchy stuff and is still dealing with PTSD from it. I am more than a little angry that you, in all your male wisdom, think that I have nothing to offer in terms of life experience. Why? Because I'm independent? Because I don't do "headship"? My husband once said that if he wanted something to obey him, he'd get a dog. The dogs didn't obey him either. I've lived a long life, survived more hell than you could possibly guess, and as a result, have much wisdom. If you don't think so because I'm a woman, that's your hangup.

You come off as some kid ranting and raving that he wants to be the boss and those awful women won't let him be the boss. You think people like Voddie Baucham and others of his ilk have it right when the truth is they espouse abuse pure and simple. You do not have enough of the lived experiences Paidske and I have to even dream you can tell us what our marriages should be. In otherwords, you're like a little kid screaming into the wind that you want things your way, not realizing that the big wide world doesn't operate that way.
 
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stevevw

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But what they are doing is making a case for transgendered identity. Not saying that cisgendered people have fixed and innate behaviours.
No if you understand the paper is saying changes in sex hormones which either make the brain masculine of feminine are what make a female act like a male because they have too much male sex hormones. This was shown in the studies they did on typical gender behaviour in children.

All of the participants exhibited male-typical behavior, such as rough-and-tumble play and having many male friends.

So they are clearly distinguishing that they are talking about both gender identity and gender behavior. That's because they are linked.

Here are a couple of more links.

Genes encoded on the sex chromosomes that directly act on the brain to influence neural developmental and sex-specific behaviors have been identified
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3030621/


What are the causes of sex differences and similarities in behavior? Some causes can be traced to human evolutionary history, especially the ways that the division of labor is influenced by biology and environments.

The specific activities in a society depend on what tasks can be performed most efficiently by each sex, given men's greater size, strength, and speed and women's bearing and nursing children.
Gender Differences in Social Behavior > Professor Wendy Wood > USC Dana and David Dornsife College of Letters, Arts and Sciences


I'm not denying that our society has typically different patterns of behaviour for men and women. But I'm denying that the only basis for that is hormonal.
I never said it was the only basis but rather have pointed out how its a combination of factors and that denying the natural influences is a limited view. I think its the social constructionist position that posits only social causes and denies natural ones
Someone who feels more like a man might adopt more "manly" behaviours, but that's choosing to use our society's script for men. Not because the script is written in our biology.
First if someone feels like something then they are going to act like they feel. To deny that is deny our own minds and bodies. Second its not just about feelings. Its the underlying brain that generates a feeling of being a man or women and that is generated by the different sex hormones on the brain.

This argument is so full of holes it's not funny. When we've had the chance to study hunter-gatherer societies, for example, it's not the aggressive, competitive hunters producing most of the food. Sure, they might be the ones who go and hunt whatever the biggest herbivore in the landscape is; but that will make an incredibly small proportion of what the group eats. It's the folks who gather plants, make fish traps, and that sort of thing, who do most of the "providing."
It doesn't matter what portion is contributed but rather the fact that there are natural evolutionary causes that make the 'more aggressive, competitive and stronger hunter in that role rather than being a socially constructed role. Evolution forms the basis and then culture comes along and refines that accordingly.

This "protector and provider" thing has very little basis in any sort of evolutionary imperative.
I suspect you may be bias on this because its a scientific fact that nature plays a role as I have linked. You seem to be throwing the baby out with the bath water by thinking that the mere word protection and provider are something negative and oppressive.

There are healthy and positive ways males play the protector and provider role. We see it throughout history such as the 9/11 disaster. Men are willing to go into the abyss to protect others. They are built for it and its in their DNA.

But don't let the negative aspects of maleness where the protector and provider instinct goes awry and males dominate and possess. In fact the reason why the natural instincts go to the extremes is because males are denied or lose their positive natural selves and identity. They become either needy and possess or violent in an attempt to act out their natural instincts. They want to control because they don't know who they are.

Evolutionary, psychological, environmental, and genetic processes suggest that men are both riskier (as defined by the willingness to take risks) and more aggressive (as defined by hostile, violent behavior or attitudes directed toward another, as well as the readiness to attack or confront). Human nature is in many ways the product of natural selection, and as a result, the traits and behaviors that helped men survive and prosper in hunting-gathering societies still exert powerful influences in the modern world
Men Riskier, More Aggressive

Well, it's a valid concern; gender roles are seldom used to limit what men can do. But they're used to keep women out of education, out of employment, out of positions of leadership, and so on.
Yes as humans we can behave badly as well and take advantage of others and we need to stop this. But to ignore the natural influences can lead to similar injustices.

But even behind that, as someone who's got a background in the relevant science, I truly believe all of this natural tendencies stuff is mostly bunk.
Well maybe you need to do some more research because its not bunk but scientifically supported. I just linked a number of papers above to support this. What I think is bunk is taking an ideological view of life and making that the truth.

The constructionist position ideological because it incorporates beliefs and assumptions about human nature and how we should be ordered as a society. Its not really an open and balanced view of things.

I'm advocating for a balanced view where we recognize the natural contributions as well all all the other factors including social and cultural influences.

If we look at how traits differ between men and women, we see something like this:

View attachment 322370
Sure, the bell curves don't quite overlap; the average man and average woman are slightly different. And at either extreme you might find more men or more women. But the vast majority of men and women, for most traits, are under the shared area. That is to say, most of us are within the normal range for our gender, which overlaps for the normal range for the other gender as well.
Its a bit hard to know the context of this graph. It depends on what we are looking at. If this is an overall difference then there is little difference. But when we isolate the specifics to gender behavior and thinking it becomes greater.

Its at the extreme where the difference is greatest and that is where its a matter of evolutionary adaptions for survival like men are way more aggressive than women at the extreme and someone you would want as a protector as a matter of survival.

But when the males positive natural instinct is denied or where negative role models influence them things get out of whack and that's why we see much higher rates of male violence in society.
 
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stevevw

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I really don't think this just popped up out of nowhere in the last 30 or so years. It's just come out of the shadows. As it is said in Ecclesiastes, there is nothing new under the sun
If we look at the evolution of philosophical thinking we see the progression towards post modernism. We began to question things which is healthy but then we became overly critical and now there is a general skepticism about everything in life. I guess fake news doesn't help lol.

But I agree there is an even deeper basis lurking in the shadows which is our fallen human nature to challenge and rebel against God. Ultimately that's about playing God and I think modern society has allowed this to happen more than ever before.
 
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didactics

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Get married, be married for 10+ years. Have a few kids, experience what life is like with a family. Keep the vows. Reading is no replacement for the day to day reality of marriage and family. See if you can find a woman who's willing to buy into the "headship" thing.

What wisdom do I have to offer? Hmm...age, marriage experiences, reality, raising children, survivor of domestic violence, education and career, being a woman who has dealt with this patriarchy stuff and is still dealing with PTSD from it. I am more than a little angry that you, in all your male wisdom, think that I have nothing to offer in terms of life experience. Why? Because I'm independent? Because I don't do "headship"? My husband once said that if he wanted something to obey him, he'd get a dog. The dogs didn't obey him either. I've lived a long life, survived more hell than you could possibly guess, and as a result, have much wisdom. If you don't think so because I'm a woman, that's your hangup.

You come off as some kid ranting and raving that he wants to be the boss and those awful women won't let him be the boss. You think people like Voddie Baucham and others of his ilk have it right when the truth is they espouse abuse pure and simple. You do not have enough of the lived experiences Paidske and I have to even dream you can tell us what our marriages should be. In otherwords, you're like a little kid screaming into the wind that you want things your way, not realizing that the big wide world doesn't operate that way.
Marriage is the norm and I probably should have been married by now considering my age. Although, I don’t get the point of your last paragraph. I brought up Voddie Baucham one time and you wanted to challenge me on a few things he said. Then at one point you posted that you saw that name brought up one too many times and said you’re done.

I’m surprised you have nothing to say about education it must have been an off the cuff statement to tell me not to reproduce until I “get an education” (page 30).
 
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Enilorac

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I’m surprised you have nothing to say about education it must have been an off the cuff statement to tell me not to reproduce until I “get an education” (page 30).

There's more than one way to get an education, although I highly recommend formal education. The first and foremost benefit is critical thinking, how to evaluate certain things for truth, bias and/or logical consistency. Barring that, I'd highly recommend reading and evaluating things from both sides of an argument. You seem to swallow certain things whole without evaluating them further.

Marriage, while considered "the norm" is not the end all and be all of adult life.

Oh, and "headship" is not part of marriage teaching in my denomination. "Headship" is actually only taught by a few groups and is not part of mainstream Christian teaching. Adventists Belief about Marriage and Family - Adventist.org
 
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Paidiske

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No if you understand the paper is saying changes in sex hormones which either make the brain masculine of feminine are what make a female act like a male because they have too much male sex hormones. This was shown in the studies they did on typical gender behaviour in children.

But it doesn't unpack what we mean by "like a male," and how much (for example) the experience of being transgendered might lead to someone resisting typical gendered socialisation. Like discouraging girls from rough-and-tumble play, or having male friends.

First if someone feels like something then they are going to act like they feel.


But - for example - how does a transgendered person know what it means to act like the gender they feel they are? What leads to a transwoman wearing dresses and heels and make up? There's nothing innate in that. It comes from observing the social norms of women and mimicking them.

It doesn't matter what portion is contributed...

Of course it matters when all of this is used to argue for gender roles which disempower women. People point to ambiguous and inconclusive results about behaviour and then argue that on that basis women should be denied education, or employment, or be "domestically oriented."

I suspect you may be bias on this because its a scientific fact that nature plays a role as I have linked.

I'm a mother. I know that our biology means different outcomes for men and women, even based on our reproductive physiology. But I don't think nature is anywhere near enough of a reason for the oppression of women we see backed up by this kind of argument.

You seem to be throwing the baby out with the bath water by thinking that the mere word protection and provider are something negative and oppressive.

Of course they are. Someone who needs to be protected and provided for is weak, passive, disempowered. Putting up an ideal of a male "protector and provider" means that women are supposed to play the inverse role to that, rather than being equal life partners whose agency, gifts, personality and so on actually matter.

There are healthy and positive ways males play the protector and provider role. We see it throughout history such as the 9/11 disaster.

Firstly, you're overlooking the involvement of women in emergency services. And secondly, it's one thing to take on a professional role like this; it's another thing to argue that all men need to be "protectors and providers" for their household.

In fact the reason why the natural instincts go to the extremes is because males are denied or lose their positive natural selves and identity. They become either needy and possess or violent in an attempt to act out their natural instincts. They want to control because they don't know who they are.

There's probably some truth to this, but the answer isn't to revert to gendered stereotypes as a script. It's to encourage and allow each person to discover their particular gifts, talents, strengths, and so on, and to flourish personally and professionally in their own unique identity.

Well maybe you need to do some more research because its not bunk but scientifically supported.

Evolutionary psychology is mostly pseudoscientific waffle.

The constructionist position ideological because it incorporates beliefs and assumptions about human nature and how we should be ordered as a society.

And the prescriptivist view of gender roles doesn't? At least the position I'm taking is attempting to challenge social injustice, rather than entrench it.

If this is an overall difference then there is little difference. But when we isolate the specifics to gender behavior and thinking it becomes greater.

Exactly. Little difference across a range of behaviours and traits typically considered to be different by gender.

Its at the extreme where the difference is greatest and that is where its a matter of evolutionary adaptions for survival like men are way more aggressive than women at the extreme and someone you would want as a protector as a matter of survival.

The point is, though, most men aren't at the extreme. Most men are under the same part of the bell curve as most women. Women, on average, are only slightly less aggressive than men, on average, and many men are less aggressive than many women. We can't use this to then prescribe that men must fulfil roles in life where more aggression is considered beneficial, but have to look at the individual person in front of us.

And honestly, most of us don't need a "protector" for survival at any point in our lives beyond childhood.

But when the males positive natural instinct is denied or where negative role models influence them things get out of whack and that's why we see much higher rates of male violence in society.

Nobody's talking about denying positive instincts (although they may need to be channelled appropriately). But I think you're right about negative role models, especially when we look at misogynistic subcultures (the book Men Who Hate Women is a disturbing, but eye-opening read in that regard).
 
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stevevw

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But it doesn't unpack what we mean by "like a male," and how much (for example) the experience of being transgendered might lead to someone resisting typical gendered socialisation. Like discouraging girls from rough-and-tumble play, or having male friends.
You were saying the paper wasn't talking about gender behaviour and I was just pointing out that it does in the context that sex hormones on the brain change typical gender behaviour.
Boys engage in rough and tumble play as they evolved to experience the world that way, hands on, physically engaging with the world. More aggressive being expressed in physical activities like rough play.

But - for example - how does a transgendered person know what it means to act like the gender they feel they are? What leads to a transwoman wearing dresses and heels and make up? There's nothing innate in that. It comes from observing the social norms of women and mimicking them.
If sex hormones make the body and brain masculine or feminine then that this infiltrates you psyche and is expressed in behavior. That's the basis.

Trans people feel like the opposite sex because they have the opposite sexes hormones and brains though its more complicated than that. That makes you feel male or female and feeling like something is the basis for behavior.

They don't have to be shown or learn, the basic natural instincts is already in them. Its not a coincident that most women who feel and act like a male have higher male sex hormones (testosterone). Research has shown that you can increase testosterone in female rats and they suddenly begin to act like males displaying rough and tumble play.

Of course it matters when all of this is used to argue for gender roles which disempower women. People point to ambiguous and inconclusive results about behaviour and then argue that on that basis women should be denied education, or employment, or be "domestically oriented."
The results are not ambiguous though. The problem is when people take those results and use them to take advantage. But to go to the extreme and say that there are no natural reasons is also wrong.

I'm a mother. I know that our biology means different outcomes for men and women, even based on our reproductive physiology. But I don't think nature is anywhere near enough of a reason for the oppression of women we see backed up by this kind of argument.
But its just scientific fact. What people do with that later is not the fault of the facts. In their right context the natural influences are just one factor among several including social and cultural ones and environmental as well. I think the scientific facts are rejected because people fear they will be used for evil. But that's a separate issue.

At the same time the other concern is that science and nature is rejected and that's a form of abuse as well which can lead to just as much harm as any perceived male oppression. That's why I think a balanced approach is needed.

Of course they are. Someone who needs to be protected and provided for is weak, passive, disempowered. Putting up an ideal of a male "protector and provider" means that women are supposed to play the inverse role to that, rather than being equal life partners whose agency, gifts, personality and so on actually matter.
I think that's your version of the words and perhaps the ideology of feminism as its very cynical treating everything as the oppressed and the oppressors. Whereas there are other ways to understand protector and provider.

At face value without any political or ideological trappings being a protector and provider seems a noble thing. Something someone does because they love the person and want them to be happy and safe and not oppress them. Especially if say a man is a new father and the wife is nursing.

I think this basic instinct has been around for millions of years and and has been studies for many years. Its in male DNA as a form of survival. Lose the mother and baby and your genes aren't being passed on.

Firstly, you're overlooking the involvement of women in emergency services. And secondly, it's one thing to take on a professional role like this; it's another thing to argue that all men need to be "protectors and providers" for their household.
I'm not making any argument for the protector provider role but rather just pointing out how male and females have different natural instincts and traits. I'm not ignoring the women who do a great job in emergency services. I'm just say its predominately males for good natural reasons.

There's probably some truth to this, but the answer isn't to revert to gendered stereotypes as a script. It's to encourage and allow each person to discover their particular gifts, talents, strengths, and so on, and to flourish personally and professionally in their own unique identity.
I agree, its just a case of how we do that. But I think socially engineering society based on some ideology about who humans are and how society should be ordered is also wrong.

Research shows that in egalitarian societies where people are free to choose this actually extenuates the differences between male and female. Men are naturally more interested in things and women are more interested in people than men are on average. If you leave men and women to make free choices they will usually choose traditional roles.
'A gender equality paradox': Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads
 
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Paidiske

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You were saying the paper wasn't talking about gender behaviour and I was just pointing out that it does in the context that sex hormones on the brain change typical gender behaviour.

What I am trying to get across is that what we define as "masculine" or "feminine" behaviour is not genetic. It's cultural. We might be driven to adopt what our cultures consider to be more masculine or feminine, but not because those things are biological or innate.

Boys engage in rough and tumble play as they evolved to experience the world that way, hands on, physically engaging with the world.

Can you demonstrate that the reason girls might do this less is biological, rather than the fact that girls are routinely discouraged from doing so? Because in research I've found (for example, here: https://playvolutionhq.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Rough-and-Tumble-Play.pdf) although differences were observed, one explanation offered for them was that "girls are discouraged from participating in behaviours that are interpreted as aggressive."

They don't have to be shown or learn, the basic natural instincts is already in them.


Really? So, transwomen don't, for example, wear high heels because that's a culturally feminine thing? They wear high heels because they have a basic natural instinct for them?

What then do we say about periods in history where men wore heels?

These shoes, while today we might consider them "feminine," were the height of male fashion at one point:

c2ribbonshoe.jpg


Behaviours are cultural. Not biological.

The results are not ambiguous though.

Well, they're certainly not unambiguously proving what you say they do.

Whereas there are other ways to understand protector and provider.

How is it possible to cast all men as needing to be protectors and providers, without casting women as needing to be protected and provided for?

At face value without any political or ideological trappings being a protector and provider seems a noble thing.

Only if it's also not a gendered thing. If we upheld protecting and providing as gender-neutral virtues, I'd have much less problem with them.

I'm not making any argument for the protector provider role...

Isn't that what you were just doing? Saying it's a biological imperative, genetically determined, and a noble virtue?

But I think socially engineering society based on some ideology about who humans are and how society should be ordered is also wrong.

That's what gender roles do! Engineer society on the basis of gender ideology.
 
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There are roles that are specific to the male and female. And the person who designed the model was God. We do not have to accept these roles but if we do not, we are in opposition to Gods will and living a life contrary to what is good.

Gods will for the male is to be the leader. From the very beginning, Adam had the accountibilty of the covenant, not eve and not a partnership.... the man only. Both were warned not to violate God's law in the garden but only Adam held the responsibility, not the woman. It's just the way it's always been.

With responsibility should come authority. The two should never be separated from each other. Because people who yeild power that have no risk of personal loss do not exercise the power in their control prudently. They have nothing to lose as someone else will have to deal with anything that goes wrong from bad decisions. And today we see an example of this with women. They have an enormous amount of power/authoirty but without the responiblity/risk as any mistakes made by women are always made good by men.

In order to set this imbalance of power right and restore people to their natural God given roles, women would need to have their choices rededuced and men have their authority increased. Old weak men have give up power to women. Now it falls on younger future generations to reclaim the natural order.
 
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Paidiske

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In order to set this imbalance of power right and restore people to their natural God given roles, women would need to have their choices rededuced and men have their authority increased. Old weak men have give up power to women. Now it falls on younger future generations to reclaim the natural order.

Your whole argument rests on a bunch of flawed premises, but your conclusion is chilling: men must control women.

Let the reader understand; this is a blatant, outright argument for men's abuse of women. This is what's at stake, and why we must continue to be vigilant against these positions.
 
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In what ways gender roles limit women’s education really depends on what you mean by that. For example if we are talking about certain theological seminaries that hold the view of men only elders. I looked it up and found SWBTS This concentration is designed for the woman who plans to minister to women through the local church. At least they still offer this for women as opposed to no education. If we had a more traditional gender roles that was the norm in the west, I would still think education should be offered to women all the same. Let’s say most women decided they wanted to put a hold on their outside career while they focus on being mothers in their 20’s and 30’s. They would be choosing to limit their outside career potential, but they would still have access to the training they desired.
But, I could be reading that wrong. I think it's the case that even though they hold to that view, they still allow women in all of the courses provided. The reason is because they know individual churches associated with the SBC disagree whether women are allowed behind the pulpit preaching on the Lord's day or if they can't be lead pastors (although I don't think the Bible makes such a distinction). Or it's simply because some women want to apply their skills differently, they let them attend. The complementarianism debate - SWBTS


What is meant by all men to be protectors and providers, may be different than what you imagine. If we had a more traditional roles in society it would mean that is the norm. So, if you prefer being the breadwinner of the home, you wouldn’t be denied the opportunity. Norms are a social construct if you will, but norms don’t need to be made into laws.


I wouldn’t say that everything we perceive to be masculine or feminine is just a culture thing. Though, every culture is different when it comes to dress, nonetheless each culture has certain dress typical for man and woman. There is a reason for that and it’s because our bodies are noticeably different, and that makes it relevant to biology. Though, men’s heels used to be a thing in 17th century Europe, women’s shoes had taller, thinner heels than those of their male counterparts.
 
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There are roles that are specific to the male and female. And the person who designed the model was God. We do not have to accept these roles but if we do not, we are in opposition to Gods will and living a life contrary to what is good.

Gods will for the male is to be the leader. From the very beginning, Adam had the accountibilty of the covenant, not eve and not a partnership.... the man only. Both were warned not to violate God's law in the garden but only Adam held the responsibility, not the woman. It's just the way it's always been.

With responsibility should come authority. The two should never be separated from each other. Because people who yeild power that have no risk of personal loss do not exercise the power in their control prudently. They have nothing to lose as someone else will have to deal with anything that goes wrong from bad decisions. And today we see an example of this with women. They have an enormous amount of power/authoirty but without the responiblity/risk as any mistakes made by women are always made good by men.

In order to set this imbalance of power right and restore people to their natural God given roles, women would need to have their choices rededuced and men have their authority increased. Old weak men have give up power to women. Now it falls on younger future generations to reclaim the natural order.
Sounds like your ideal world is one without women.
 
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And today we see an example of this with women. They have an enormous amount of power/authoirty but without the responiblity/risk as any mistakes made by women are always made good by men.

Proof? Women don't have responsibility or risk?
 
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