Do gender roles still apply today?

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Firstly, what is meant by the term “gender roles”? Do these roles pertain only to what is possible biologically? For example, some men produce seed, but no man produces eggs. Likewise, no woman produces seed, but some women produce eggs. Maybe it’s irrelevant to some because they think gender and sex mean different things. Christians, on the other hand, may have another consideration in mind. What about the institution of marriage designed by God to be between a man and a woman?

[But now, to get into the semantics of it. Do I acknowledge that some understand sex and gender to mean different things? Yes, I do. But that does not mean that I’m going to concede to the argument: If I agree that gender and sex mean different things, then I’m saying gender theory is correct. But the fact is, not all dictionary definitions agree on this.]

I would argue that yes gender roles are still relevant today. Some might counter this with a verse in Galatians where it says “there is neither…male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (See Gal 3:28) This is meaning something different. The apostle Paul was affirming what Jesus said, “an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth” (Jn 4:23). According to the Reformation Study Bible, “The ceremonial and sacrificial aspects of the law were…temporary and provisional.” So, Paul was instead emphasizing spiritual equality. The apostle also had in several letters, discussion on roles of husband and wife. (See 1 Co 11:3; Eph 5:21-33; Col 3:18-19; 1 Pe 3:1-7)

So again, Paul was emphasizing spiritual equality. This spiritual equality is not incompatible “with the God-ordained roles of headship and submission in the church, society, and the home.” (MacArthur Study Bible)

In other words, I do not see it as “gender” vs “nature”. Rather, the DNA inherent in males and females determines who we are; the roles we should live by are determined by the gender that our DNA says that we are.* Now, when I say “roles”, I mean conduct, and things that are commonly true of men and women.

Now when the Bible makes a prohibition of transvestitism (Deut. 22:5), some argue that this is a case against women in combat roles. The reason behind this interpretation is that women are the life-givers, nurturers. Also, it seems women don’t really have the issue of crossdressing generally, so it’s not to do with jeans. Quoting the Reformation Study Bible, “Women were not to adopt the accoutrements of the male (e.g., carrying weapons), and men were not to dress as women. The symbols of gender difference were to be respected, and while such symbols vary over time and from culture to culture, the principle of gender distinction remains (Gen. 1:27; cf. 1 Tim. 2:13).”

Men are to be leaders in the household
I’ve often wondered what that looks like. I know this is not to mean we condone men acting like tyrants. From a devotional titled, Spousal Roles, from Ligonier, “…that he will remember that she is a person and not to be run roughshod over when decisions are made. He will respect her opinion and work to compromise when necessary. Nevertheless, the two will not agree at times and in these cases the wife is called to submit insofar as she does not sin by doing so.” I also think that verses here, Ephesians 5:25-26, mean that men of their household are to take the initiative in godly devotion. While verse 21 does say that Christians are to submit to one another, Paul also teaches wives to submit to husbands, as to the Lord (v. 22).

Roles for the church
In the same way, pastors/elders are to be males. Paul, instructing Timothy about the office of overseer, rules out the polygamist, “the husband of one wife” (1Ti 3:2). Why is he only addressing male polygamists? It’s because he already made it clear in the previous chapter that women are not to be overseers/pastors/elders (and yes, I take all those words to mean the same thing). However, believing women are very much encouraged to preach to unbelievers; you don’t have to hold the title of pastor/teacher in order to evangelize the lost.

Societal roles
So if these “roles” relate to what is a general rule about men and women, why is the standard applied across the board? Some women are stronger than some men. However, it sounds like a terrible idea to have women drafted into war. So then, if men wield the sword and the civil magistrate wields the sword (see Ro 13:4), then does this apply to mayor, governor, city council, and Supreme Court justice to be only men? I’m just explaining how some interpret this. It’s relatively new that I’ve heard this perspective.

Conclusion
But I thought I might end with this, an article by Susan Hunt, The Goodness of Gender. —I asked our eight-year-old and eleven-year-old granddaughters, "Who is better—boys or girls?" There was immediate consensus: "Girls!" We had a Titus 2 sit-down. Ask them now and they will tell you, "Boys are better at being boys, girls are better at being girls, we are equal but different, and it is very good because God said so.”—

*But what about intersex conditions? some may counter. Doesn’t this make it uncertain that there are only two sexes? While there are rare diseases that make it appear that some males have XX chromosome pairs, or females with XY, these aren’t genuine mismatched chromosome pairs in the truest sense. Further analysis allows us to know what’s really happening. Swyers happens, when a female has what appears to be an XY sex chromosome pair, caused by mutation or deletion on important parts "of the segment of the Y chromosome containing the SRY gene." [quote by rarediseases.org] With de la Chapelle syndrome, a male with an XX pair, a translocation occurs, a piece of the SRY gene attaches with an X chromosome. Androgen insensitivity syndrome occurs in genetic males (XY). “Because their bodies are unable to respond to certain male sex hormones (called androgens), they may have mostly female external sex characteristics or signs of both male and female sexual development.” (From MedlinePlus) These conditions may not be noticed until puberty; they are infertile.
 
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HTacianas

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Firstly, what is meant by the term “gender roles”? Do these roles pertain only to what is possible biologically? For example, some men produce seed, but no man produces eggs. Likewise, no woman produces seed, but some women produce eggs. Maybe it’s irrelevant to some because they think gender and sex mean different things. Christians, on the other hand, may have another consideration in mind. What about the institution of marriage designed by God to be between a man and a woman?

[But now, to get into the semantics of it. Do I acknowledge that some understand sex and gender to mean different things? Yes, I do. But that does not mean that I’m going to concede to the argument: If I agree that gender and sex mean different things, then I’m saying gender theory is correct. But the fact is, not all dictionary definitions agree on this.]

I would argue that yes gender roles are still relevant today. Some might counter this with a verse in Galatians where it says “there is neither…male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (See Gal 3:28) This is meaning something different. The apostle Paul was affirming what Jesus said, “an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth” (Jn 4:23). According to the Reformation Study Bible, “The ceremonial and sacrificial aspects of the law were…temporary and provisional.” So, Paul was instead emphasizing spiritual equality. The apostle also had in several letters, discussion on roles of husband and wife. (See 1 Co 11:3; Eph 5:21-33; Col 3:18-19; 1 Pe 3:1-7)

So again, Paul was emphasizing spiritual equality. This spiritual equality is not incompatible “with the God-ordained roles of headship and submission in the church, society, and the home.” (MacArthur Study Bible)

In other words, I do not see it as “gender” vs “nature”. Rather, the DNA inherent in males and females determines who we are; the roles we should live by are determined by the gender that our DNA says that we are.* Now, when I say “roles”, I mean conduct, and things that are commonly true of men and women.

Now when the Bible makes a prohibition of transvestitism (Deut. 22:5), some argue that this is a case against women in combat roles. The reason behind this interpretation is that women are the life-givers, nurturers. Also, it seems women don’t really have the issue of crossdressing generally, so it’s not to do with jeans. Quoting the Reformation Study Bible, “Women were not to adopt the accoutrements of the male (e.g., carrying weapons), and men were not to dress as women. The symbols of gender difference were to be respected, and while such symbols vary over time and from culture to culture, the principle of gender distinction remains (Gen. 1:27; cf. 1 Tim. 2:13).”

Men are to be leaders in the household
I’ve often wondered what that looks like. I know this is not to mean we condone men acting like tyrants. From a devotional titled, Spousal Roles, from Ligonier, “…that he will remember that she is a person and not to be run roughshod over when decisions are made. He will respect her opinion and work to compromise when necessary. Nevertheless, the two will not agree at times and in these cases the wife is called to submit insofar as she does not sin by doing so.” I also think that verses here, Ephesians 5:25-26, mean that men of their household are to take the initiative in godly devotion. While verse 21 does say that Christians are to submit to one another, Paul also teaches wives to submit to husbands, as to the Lord (v. 22).

Roles for the church
In the same way, pastors/elders are to be males. Paul, instructing Timothy about the office of overseer, rules out the polygamist, “the husband of one wife” (1Ti 3:2). Why is he only addressing male polygamists? It’s because he already made it clear in the previous chapter that women are not to be overseers/pastors/elders (and yes, I take all those words to mean the same thing). However, believing women are very much encouraged to preach to unbelievers; you don’t have to hold the title of pastor/teacher in order to evangelize the lost.

Societal roles
So if these “roles” relate to what is a general rule about men and women, why is the standard applied across the board? Some women are stronger than some men. However, it sounds like a terrible idea to have women drafted into war. So then, if men wield the sword and the civil magistrate wields the sword (see Ro 13:4), then does this apply to mayor, governor, city council, and Supreme Court justice to be only men? I’m just explaining how some interpret this. It’s relatively new that I’ve heard this perspective.

Conclusion
But I thought I might end with this, an article by Susan Hunt, The Goodness of Gender. —I asked our eight-year-old and eleven-year-old granddaughters, "Who is better—boys or girls?" There was immediate consensus: "Girls!" We had a Titus 2 sit-down. Ask them now and they will tell you, "Boys are better at being boys, girls are better at being girls, we are equal but different, and it is very good because God said so.”—

*But what about intersex conditions? some may counter. Doesn’t this make it uncertain that there are only two sexes? While there are rare diseases that make it appear that some males have XX chromosome pairs, or females with XY, these aren’t genuine mismatched chromosome pairs in the truest sense. Further analysis allows us to know what’s really happening. Swyers happens, when a female has what appears to be an XY sex chromosome pair, caused by mutation or deletion on important parts "of the segment of the Y chromosome containing the SRY gene." [quote by rarediseases.org] With de la Chapelle syndrome, a male with an XX pair, a translocation occurs, a piece of the SRY gene attaches with an X chromosome. Androgen insensitivity syndrome occurs in genetic males (XY). “Because their bodies are unable to respond to certain male sex hormones (called androgens), they may have mostly female external sex characteristics or signs of both male and female sexual development.” (From MedlinePlus) These conditions may not be noticed until puberty; they are infertile.

This may factor into the answer:

Ukraine bans male citizens aged 18 to 60 from leaving: report
 
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BobRyan

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"sex" can either mean gender or it can mean a physical act between two people (man and woman -- according to the Bible).

Gender the other hand is never an action -- it is always a description of a human as being either male or female and all humans have it from the unborn to the end of human life and beyond the grave as a corpse.
 
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BobRyan

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Though our most recent Supreme Court justice claims to be horribly confused as to the meaning of this simple text - apparently every other human on planet earth understand what it means.

"The Ukraine State Border Guard Service has announced that men ages 18 to 60 were prohibited from leaving the country, according to reports.

Thursday's action came after Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelenskyy's declaration of martial law across the country after Russia invaded Ukraine and attacked major cities, including the capital, Kyiv.

"In particular, it is forbidden for men aged 18-60, Ukraine citizens, to leave the borders of Ukraine," a statement from the service said, according to CNN. "This regulation will remain in effect for the period of the legal regime of martial law. We ask the citizens to take this information into consideration."​
 
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Der Alte

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If a person who is born male transgender to female or a person who is born female transgender to male dies under circumstances which prevent medical personnel from determining the gender by external physical examination how will they determine the gender?
The only remaining way is skeletal structure and DNA, Science has not found a way to alter either one of those.
 
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comana

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If a person who is born male transgender to female or a person who is born female transgender to male dies under circumstances which prevent medical personnel from determining the gender by external physical examination how will they determine the gender?
The only remaining way is skeletal structure and DNA, Science has not found a way to alter either one of those.
Family and or friends can state the deceased chosen gender once the identity of the remain has been confirmed.
 
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Der Alte

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Family and or friends can state the deceased chosen gender once the identity of the remain has been confirmed.
But that don't make it so. Not sure that would be accepted by officials.
 
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If a person who is born male transgender to female or a person who is born female transgender to male dies under circumstances which prevent medical personnel from determining the gender by external physical examination how will they determine the gender?

There are no gender roles after death. It's fine to identify the remains by the genetic sex, unless and until gender information turns up.
 
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Yttrium

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I would argue that yes gender roles are still relevant today.

Well, sure. The whole point of trans is that they feel that they should be following the opposite gender role of their sex. There are some who prefer to be gender ambiguous, with no defined gender role, but that's no reason to try to remove gender roles from society.
 
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comana

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But that don't make it so. Not sure that would be accepted by officials.
What does it matter if they are dead? Those who cared would know what the deceased wanted to be known as. The official report can’t change how those who cared will remember.
 
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Well, sure. The whole point of trans is that they feel that they should be following the opposite gender role of their sex. There are some who prefer to be gender ambiguous, with no defined gender role, but that's no reason to try to remove gender roles from society.
When the Supreme Court redefines marriage (Obergefell v. Hodges), they redefine what the family unit should look like; they undermine the family unit, and the family unit is the building block of society.
 
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frank sears

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I wonder what is next? Is it possible to reach a depravity even lower then striving to change little children into an opposite gender from that which they are born with? Why are not these people going to jail, this is the worst form of child abuse.
 
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Paulos23

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When the Supreme Court redefines marriage (Obergefell v. Hodges), they redefine what the family unit should look like; they undermine the family unit, and the family unit is the building block of society.
I bet the variety of family units that exist out in society would not fit your definition of family unit.

Most of them work for the people in them, why bother about it.
 
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Yttrium

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When the Supreme Court redefines marriage (Obergefell v. Hodges), they redefine what the family unit should look like; they undermine the family unit, and the family unit is the building block of society.

I don't see any reason why all households should have the same mix of gender roles. Mixing it up a little seems okay to me.
 
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I don't see any reason why all households should have the same mix of gender roles. Mixing it up a little seems okay to me.
It’s not okay to me that it’s decided on a federal level. The state should get to decide what is legal marriage.

@Paulos23 What I think counts as a marriage: one man and one woman, whether they are Christian or not.
 
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It’s not okay to me that it’s decided on a federal level. The state should get to decide what is legal marriage.

The thing is, marriages are recognized at a federal level. It goes on your tax forms, for one thing.

Besides, at this point I doubt any state would ban same-sex marriage any more. Even most conservatives are used to the idea by now.

Now, what if you have a trans man married to a trans woman? It's effectively a heterosexual marriage with both gender roles present.
 
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PloverWing

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When the Supreme Court redefines marriage (Obergefell v. Hodges), they redefine what the family unit should look like; they undermine the family unit, and the family unit is the building block of society.

It's true that same-sex marriages are free from gendered expectations about who does which chores and who dominates whom. But many opposite-sex marriages also strive to be free from gendered expectations, aiming instead for an egalitarian balance of responsibilities that is tailored to the individual skills of the two partners.

Do you believe that egalitarian marriages also undermine the family unit? Do you believe that an egalitarian marriage can be a building block of society, or do families need to embody gender hierarchies in order to be proper building blocks?
 
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PloverWing

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I suppose I should address the OP also. Let us completely set aside all LGBTQ+ issues. So for the moment we're not thinking about gay couples, intersex people, or transgender people. We're just looking at cisgender people, and, if married, in one-man-one-woman marriages. In this context: No, I do not think it is healthy or useful to impose gender roles from the ancient world -- or even from the early 20th century -- on people and marriages in 2022. If a particular person's talents do not line up with the gender roles of whichever culture you have in mind (the Bronze Age, the Roman Empire, America in the 1800s, etc.), then some of their talents are going to be wasted, because they'll be confined to jobs assigned to them by gender instead of the jobs that their talents best equip them for. Plus, I'm really wary of taking away people's agency for no good reason, simply on account of their gender (or race or nationality or income level...); that's not a good way to love one's neighbor as one's self.
 
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The thing is, marriages are recognized at a federal level. It goes on your tax forms, for one thing.

Besides, at this point I doubt any state would ban same-sex marriage any more. Even most conservatives are used to the idea by now.

Now, what if you have a trans man married to a trans woman? It's effectively a heterosexual marriage with both gender roles present.
Honestly, I haven’t thought this through as well as I thought. Larry Elder makes the case that even the state should stay out of the marriage business and leave it to non-government institutions.
The State Should Get Out of the Marriage Business by Larry Elder | Capitalism Magazine

But now, what about transgenders getting married? Maybe the above comment here answers that. Let non-government institutions decide on that.
 
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Honestly, I haven’t thought this through as well as I thought. Larry Elder makes the case that even the state should stay out of the marriage business and leave it to non-government institutions.
The State Should Get Out of the Marriage Business by Larry Elder | Capitalism Magazine

But now, what about transgenders getting married? Maybe the above comment here answers that. Let non-government institutions decide on that.

Get federal and state governments completely out of the marriage business?

...

Fine by me.
 
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