Do Disbelievers Go Too Hell?

[Lynn73]

If you're speaking of annhiliation instead of eternal existence in hell, I have to disagree with that.

 

[Flicker]

If you're speaking of annhiliation instead of eternal existence in hell, I have to disagree with that.

The Bible teaches that God is going to operate his punishment upon an unconverted sinner in a manner calculated to result in the ongoing destruction of that person, but without ever extinguishing his consciousness. See, e.g., 2 Thess 1:6-9

 

[BarbB]

I am very passionate about this topic because it is one of the lies that sabotaged my faith as a child. At eight, after my maternal grandfather’s death, I decided that the most important thing that anyone can do is serve God, so I decided to become a theologian, pastor or priest. Unfortunately I was raised Protestant. Methodists are one of the least fanatical, but no one could answer my tough questions, no one could provide a picture of God that was logical and just. To follow their arguments, God had to be a bigot, and to me as a child that made less sense than no God at all. So by the time I was 9 I was struggling against atheism. By the time I hit puberty at 12 it was unstoppable. It lasted until I was 21, when my father and paternal grandfather finally found an opening through the study of parallel religion that shook me awake and helped me to see the truth of Christianity again. Those 9 years were the darkest in my life, I thought of suicide often.

When you loose something and find it again, it means much more to you than when you take it for granted.

Mike, I can absolutely agree with everything you said in this post. I was raised Presbyterian and I fell away for 40 years. I never toyed with atheism - always believed in God, but sure didn't know God or Jesus. And I agree with your last sentence so much that I will repeat it.

When you loose something and find it again, it means much more to you than when you take it for granted

Amen and amen.

But what you are espousing - that love saves is not true scripturally. I would have said so also until I read the Bible for myself about 6 months after returning to Jesus and being saved. Love does not save - Jesus saves. Love of Jesus and God saves. Generic love, no matter how intense, doesn't save. I don't know how God will handle any who haven't heard of Jesus, but I am absolutely sure that he will be just.

Please read the Bible - pay attention to everything. It is all true. When something reads strangely, ask the Holy Spirit why God would make sure that paragraph is in the Bible and he will make it clear to you.

 

[mike1reynolds]

Even atheists have love for their families. Are they saved? No, they aren't. So either God is contradicting Himself or we need to take this Scripture along with the rest of Scripture and find the right interpretation.

God is not contradicting himself. You can’t resolve the contradiction because it is your interpretation that is contradictory to God. If you end up being forced to completely ignore a verse of scripture as you do, then your interpretation has a problem.

If someone searches vainly for God in a Godless world only to loose heart and become deeply depressed, who are you to judge this person? You automatically assume that that person is going to Hell as if it were an utterly and completely obvious fact. You are making some very ungodly assumptions about God.

But what you are espousing - that love saves is not true scripturally. I would have said so also until I read the Bible for myself about 6 months after returning to Jesus and being saved. Love does not save - Jesus saves. Love of Jesus and God saves. Generic love, no matter how intense, doesn't save. I don't know how God will handle any who haven't heard of Jesus, but I am absolutely sure that he will be just.

Selfless love is not generic love. God is the ultimate selflessness. Selfless love comes from God just as life comes from God.

Please read the Bible - pay attention to everything. It is all true. When something reads strangely, ask the Holy Spirit why God would make sure that paragraph is in the Bible and he will make it clear to you.

How do you know that it isn’t the devil answering you? If you go based on spirits rather than logic it might not be the Holy Spirit that is answering.

According to John, those who have selfless love know God, but those who don't love don’t know God. So the accuracy of your understanding, much less you apprehension of spirit answers, is totally dependent on how selfless and loving you are.

As to reading the Bible, that little thing? No problem! The New Testament is hardly more than a pamphlet compared to other holy scriptures. I have spent my life studying all religions and Islam is the only one I totally reject. Only after studying other religions for decades does the Bible make clear sense to me. I use to think that it was complete and utter gibberish, but after having studied the more clearly preserved theologies of other traditions, the Bible makes a whole lot more sense to me.

The early Christians were running for their lives and trying to keep the faith from vanishing altogether, so their's were far from being the best kept records of a teacher's teachings. Then the Roman government adopted the religion and destroyed 90% of it. That’s why the scriptures are so thread bear, for political reasons they only wanted Peter’s tradition. Anything from Thomas’ tradition or any tradition carried on by Semitic Christians was destroyed. The Romans couldn’t have Jews walking around with authority.

John’s works were almost declared heretical, it passed the council's vote by the skin of its teeth. The Romans had destroyed so much of Jesus’ teachings that there was almost nothing left, so they were required to keep a fragment of one of the Semitic traditions. During that time period more Christian died at each other's hands than were killed during all the centuries of Roman persecutions combined.

So the NT is largely stripped of context. If you aren’t familiar with the commonality of all religions it is really easy to misinterpret the NT, because most of the context was obliterated by the Romans. The Romans who compiled the anthology which is the Bible were violent Roman politicians, like all other Roman politicians. They were anything but Holy men. They excluded books from the Bible primarily for political reasons, not spiritual reasons.

Actually, the Bible says that God will destroy all unconverted people. See 2 Thess. 1:6-9.

You have to be a selfless and loving person to understand scripture. That is what 1 John 4 says: if you don’t know selfless love then you don’t know God. Yours is an unloving and contemptuous distortion of Thessalonians. That is the only way that one can contort the Bible into supposedly preaching bigotry. The devil loves bigotry…

Verse 6: Who troubled the early Christians? All non-Christians? Hardly. The Romans were demon worshipers (that is what the Bible says, though you hardly need the Bible to tell you that obvious fact). Paul is talking about Romans and so that is something quite distinct from all non-Christians. Islam is the only demon worshiping world religion today.

Verse 7: The Second Coming. No problem here.

Verse 8: In flaming fire take vengeance on those that know not God, and they obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Back to 1 John 4: who doesn’t know God? Those who are unloving don’t know God. As to obedience to the gospel, if you are a good and loving person how likely are you to violate the moral precepts of the gospel? You have to focus like a corrupt lawyer on lip services to find a violation. Matthew 7:21 makes it clear that simply giving lip service is meaningless to the Lord. Clearly that was a very low priority to Jesus.

Verse 9: Violators will be prosectured. Who are these violators? Unloving and immoral people.

You are just reapplying the same flawed interpretation over and over, using one to support the other. “This must be interpreted my way so that must be interpreted my way.” You have done nothing more than assume your own conclusions, claiming that your assumption is proof of your conclusion, or rather, that the conclusion proves itself. This is circular reasoning. The devil loves circular reasoning because it always results in a falsehood, a lie. Keep it up and he will feast on your soul…

John 3:36: The Hindus and Buddhist explicitly believe that Jesus is a messiah, Jesus is recognized as an Avatar, which means the same as messiah. Even the Muslims do. Mohammed preached about the second coming of Christ.

So by your reasoning, an Islamic terrorist will get too Heaven before a peaceful wise Taoist. That is totally nuts.

What is the difference between belief and knowledge in this context? God is love, so if you believe in selfless love then you believe in God in your heart, even if think you don't intellectually. If this is not true, then God is not love, and the Bible is wrong. You can’t avoid contradicting God and the Bible with interpretations so contemptuous of others. Random contempt for others like this can only push you away from God.

 

[Melethiel]

The Scriptures and the Church teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, not of "love".

 

[mike1reynolds]

The Scriptures and the Church teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, not of "love".

If God is Love, then what is the difference? Jesus' gospel is all about selfless love.

 

[Lynn73]

Jesus gospel is about dying for our sins, being buried, and rising the third day. I see from your responses that you're very very confused as to what the true gospel of Christ is. You're stuck on this "selfless love" kick and you cannot see the whole of what Scripture teaches.

 

[BarbB]

How do you know that it isn’t the devil answering you? If you go based on spirits rather than logic it might not be the Holy Spirit that is answering.......

As to reading the Bible, that little thing? No problem! The New Testament is hardly more than a pamphlet compared to other holy scriptures. I have spent my life studying all religions and Islam is the only one I totally reject. Only after studying other religions for decades does the Bible make clear sense to me. I use to think that it was complete and utter gibberish, but after having studied the more clearly preserved theologies of other traditions, the Bible makes a whole lot more sense to me.....

Mike, I can't do anything right with you. First I'm too logical, then I'm too emotional. I hate to tell you but even Methodists believe in the Holy Spirit and being led by the Spirit in their lives.

As to the second paragraph quoted above, I would suggest that you have concocted your own religion out of bits and pieces of various things you've read. The Bible is both OT and NT.

At this point I'm just going to pray that you find your way, because you are obviously floundering in your faith. You need a firm foundation but your religion isn't giving you anything but mirey clay. You are operating on a sentence or two out of John, not the whole counsel of the Word.

Bye.

 

[wanderphilos]

I have not read the entire thread...but unbelievers will be JUDGED. What God does with them is entirely up to HIM. Just like Jonah in the belly of the whale...he was upset with God for His mercy. But it is up to GOD not up to us what God chooses to do...and how He judges.

 

[Akathist]

Mod Hat:​

Members are reminded of the following rule:


6.6 You MAY post in the "Christians Only" forums and MAY use a "Christian" faith icon in your profile if you consider yourself a "Christian" and DO adhere to the contents of the Nicene Creed AND believe in the following controversial doctrines BUT the specific discussion of these doctrines must be posted in the Open forums (for example, Unorthodox Theological Doctrines) and not in the Christian Only forums:


c. Universalism or Universal Salvation.
d. Annihilationism.

 

[livingword26]

And He will only save those who have worked at being like Him, which is selfless and loving.

Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works , lest any man should boast.
KJV

The only scriptural backing in this regard is that God judges you by what is in your heart and never exclusively by what is in your head.

Jer 17:9
9 The heart is deceitful above all things , and desperately wicked: who can know it?
KJV

If we are judged by what is in us then we are doomed. Our salvation does not depend on what we do, rather what we do reflects whether or not we are saved.

 

[Lynn73]

As to the second paragraph quoted above, I would suggest that you have concocted your own religion out of bits and pieces of various things you've read. The Bible is both OT and NT.

At this point I'm just going to pray that you find your way, because you are obviously floundering in your faith. You need a firm foundation but your religion isn't giving you anything but mirey clay. You are operating on a sentence or two out of John, not the whole counsel of the Word.

Bye.

I'm in perfect agreement with this. Mike, you appear to have picked one thing out of Scripture that you like the sound of and you've made a religion out of it. You aren't rightly dividing the word of truth because you ignore true gospel of Scripture and instead are fixated on this gospel of "selfless love." You need to get firmly grounded in the whole council of God's word, not just the bits and pieces you pick out, as Barb alludes to. Along with her, I'll be praying that you come to the truth.

 

[JohnRyan]

Jesus gospel is about dying for our sins, being buried, and rising the third day. I see from your responses that you're very very confused as to what the true gospel of Christ is. You're stuck on this "selfless love" kick and you cannot see the whole of what Scripture teaches.

Yes, but everything that God does, in the end, is done out of love. Love is the end of all things.

 

[Lynn73]

Yes, God is love (as well as holy, pure, wrathful, judge, etc.) The point is, mike's view is very unbalanced and unbiblical. The gospel isn't that love saves or that loving someone saves you, it's the fact that He went to a cross and shed His blood for our sins and died, was buried, and rose the third day. Yes, God did this out of love but read mike's posts. He says that having love toward people saves. It does not. That's not the gospel. There are millions of people who love their families and other people and are lost and on the way to hell because they haven't been born again through faith in Christ. He isn't understanding the whole council of the word of God but just picking bits and pieces here and there.

 

[Kasanova07]

I believe its better to trust God's mercy. Those who call themselves Christian, and have the audacity to judge and claim to know who will and will not go to Hell should be ready to prove without a doubt that they can even be sure they themselves won't go to Hell for being in the wrong church or believing the wrong doctrines, etc.

 

[mike1reynolds]

I'm not ignoring any other verses, but you ignore 1 John 4 and Mt. 7:21-23. I don't see how your criticism applies to me, but it does seem to apply to some here.

I don’t know the exact verse, but in the NT it says that those who teach will be judged more strictly. I interpret this to mean that a small sin for an ordinary person is a big sin for someone who tries to encourage others in it.

Bigotry is a sin. It is a mixture of pride and hate. If you try to convince others that God is a bigot, He is definitely going to have something to say about the mater.

========================================

I have a question about salvation by grace alone. I’m not sure I have all the details, or the specifics of your particular take on it. I know that the Calvinists talk about the elect and how God knew from the start who would and would not go too Heaven. Is that your view? If so, doesn’t this contradict the notion of free will?

It is a classic question, ‘free will vs. predestination’. The two are generally considered to be mutually exclusive, especially in this context. If God made us knowing full well what we would choose then He made our choice already, not us. This leaves no room for free will.

 

[mike1reynolds]

He says that having love toward people saves. It does not. That's not the gospel. There are millions of people who love their families and other people and are lost and on the way to hell because they haven't been born again through faith in Christ.

That is not a very accurate portrayal of my views. Nazis loved their families AND were utterly convinced that Jesus died for their sins and had saved them.

I know plenty of people who love their families dearly and yet are very far from being selfless, even with them.

 

[Erinwilcox]

If God is Love, then what is the difference?

Is that all God is? Love? Or does He have other attributes.

 

[mike1reynolds]

Of course He has other attributes, but bigotry certainly isn't one of them.

 

[Splayd]

Everyone knows John 3:16! It's got the answer right there if you read just a little further.

John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Just in case it's not already apparent here's some more verses to ponder...

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Hebrews 7:25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them

Romans 10:9-10 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Acts 2:37-39 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?'' Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”