Do Disbelievers Go Too Hell?

[Lynn73]

don't even believe in Hell, yet I am still a Christian. The word "hell" is a mistranslation of the Greek and Hebrew as is the word "eternal."

If anybody is interested in learning about the True Christianity without Eternal Hell-fire I'd be glad to discuss it, though I may not be the best person for the job. I would just share my views now, but it would take up too much of my time and would be a waste if no one wanted to hear it.

I think you're wrong and I already know about true Christianity. Hell isn't popular so we try our best to do away with it. Jesus knew it existed. But nothing I say is going to change your mind about it, I'm sure, but I'm betting the devil is happy to have people not believing in it.

 

[mike1reynolds]

Any righteousness we think we're producing on our own is filthy rags in God's sight.

So the Devil would have you believe in order to discourage you from making an effort in this regard. The world would be a much worse place than it already is if everyone believed like this. You don't think that you need to be loving, God will accept your hate too. If most people felt like this there would be a lot more hate in the world.

It's the blood He's looking for. Christ's blood cleanses us from sin, not our good works or our love or our attempts to emulate Christ.

All this talk of blood and death (a murder actually) makes God sound violent and primitive. This is what turns many people off from Christianity. As the world gets more civilized these kinds of savage expressions become more repulsive and so the Christian faith suffers and dwindles. It need not be like this, the Passion of Christ can be expressed in a perfectly civilized manner that does not turn modern civilized people off.

 

[mike1reynolds]

I think you're wrong and I already know about true Christianity. Hell isn't popular so we try our best to do away with it. Jesus knew it existed. But nothing I say is going to change your mind about it, I'm sure, but I'm betting the devil is happy to have people not believing in it.

I agree completely here. It is like AIDS, which first attacks the body’s ability to recognize the virus. The Devil is helped by disbelief in evil and Hell. If you don’t believe in them and so can't recognize them then the Devil can attack you more easily.

 

[mike1reynolds]

It need not be like this, the Passion of Christ can be expressed in a perfectly civilized manner that does not turn modern civilized people off.

This is going to be wildly misinterpreted, I’m sure. What happened to Jesus was savage, but I am referring to God’s actions here. Your portrayal of the Passion makes God sound savage, mine does not.

 

[Lynn73]

You act as though I have not described atonement for our sins. The sins of intolerance and conceit are alive and well today just as they were then, and that is what Jesus died for.

Sorry, but that's now what I heard you saying. And Jesus died for all sins not just intolerance and conceit. And incidently, I'm only intolerant to what I believe is biblical error, there's no conceit involved.

You can only construe my statements as unbiblical by altering them. Intellectuals make these kinds of “straw man” arguments all the time, it is a very intellectual process.

I can see that you aren't really understanding anything I've said. I haven't altered your statements and some of them ARE unbiblical. There's nothing "strawman" about it. Nor am I being intellectual. I simply believe the Bible over what you say.

Far better than you. Your statement here is just an insult. You self-righteously assume that anyone who differs with you is an ignorant fool. That is how arrogant intellectuals feel too.

I think you need to be careful about assuming my attitude or intentions. You don't like what I say, so you resort to calling me self righteous and arrogant. I'm interested in biblical truth, not men's ideas. Nowhere have I called you an ignorant fool. I'm simply pointing out where your statments don't agree, in my opinion, with the Bible.

To believe in Jesus is to practice what he taught, which is selfless love. All of your intellectual machinations can’t change that simple and obvious fact.[/quote

I haven't said we shouldn't practice what Jesus taught but I still stand on the biblical fact that selfless love won't give you eternal life. That's not the gospel. Jesus saves, yet you seem to be saying that being loving saves. The fact is people can be loving and not know Christ or ever trust Him as Savior. Their love won't save them. It has nothing to do with "intellectual machinations" and everything to do with the gospel revealed in Scripture.

agree that True belief is embracing God’s selfless love, which is a feeling and not a thought. But you are full of thoughts, not selfless compassion. How are your beliefs anything more than intellectual concepts?

How do you know what I'm full of? I believe in the Christ of the Bible and not just intellectually. I've trusted in Him as my Savior. True belief is embracing God's provision for our salvation which is Christ. Yes, the Gift is given with His selfless love.

u have turned the spiritual path on its head, intellectual beliefs flow from what is in one’s heart, not the other way around. True belief as you put it comes from an experience, from feeling the presence of God and His peace and love. You can’t get too this simply by paying lip service and adopting a belief system.

I think you should be careful about trusting in experiences and feelings which are unpredictable and can change at he drop of a hat. What are you going to do if you don't always feel the presence of God or His peace and love? Believe He's left you? Believe His word, not your feelings and experiences as wonderful as they might be.. Sometimes He gives us wonderful feelings and experience of His Presence but this isn't always the case. If you're saying we can't have real belief without some feeling or experience, I happen to disagree.

You seem angry to me. And your opinions do not come across as humble, they come across as extremely judgmental. That is why evangelicals have such a bad rap with the majority of Christians who are turned off by this.

I'm not angry. And you're entitled to your opinion. Would you rather I just pat you on the head and say okay to whatever you say instead of showing you from Scripture where you may be mistaken? We're supposed to compare what people tell us with the Bible to see if it's true or not. And, unless I'm totally misunderstanding you, I think you're promoting another gospel other than what I see in Scripture. I'm being honest. And you seem very defensive to me. You need to get used to people disagreeing with you here.

I suggest that you read Matthew 7:21-23 more closely, as well as 1 John 4. This is how most Christians think. You clearly believe that most Christians are going too Hell. Matthew 7:21-23 says that you should think again and not focus so much on the mote in the eyes of others, the plank in your own eye is much more serious.

Once again, you don't appear to get a thing I'm saying. Nowhere have I said that most Christians are gong to hell. What I will say is that not all who profess to be Christian are. I think you need to seriously read Galatians 1:1-9. If you think there's any other way of being saved other that by the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, the Bible doesn't agree with you and, imho, you promote another gospel other than the one in Scripture. If I'm understanding you correctly.

 

[Lynn73]

So the Devil would have you believe in order to discourage you from making an effort in this regard. The world would be a much worse place than it already is if everyone believed like this. You don't think that you need to be loving, God will accept your hate too. If most people felt like this there would be a lot more hate in the world.

I didn't say anything about sitting around and not doing good. I said these things don't save. Get it right. You seem very emotional. Reread everything I've said. We're talking about salvation, right. So read what I've said in that context. No good works or anything will save us, that doesn't mean we shouldn't do them!

All this talk of blood and death (a murder actually) makes God sound violent and primitive. This is what turns many people off from Christianity. As the world gets more civilized these kinds of savage expressions become more repulsive and so the Christian faith suffers and dwindles. It need not be like this, the Passion of Christ can be expressed in a perfectly civilized manner that does not turn modern civilized people off.

Excuse me, but where have you been? Have you read the Bible? All through the Old Testament, constant blood had to be shed to cover the people's sins until the once and for all perfect Lamb came to be sacrificed one and for all.


Le 17:11 - Show Context For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.



Heb 9:22 - Show Context And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

We don't change the message of the gospel just so as to not turn people off. I hate to tell you this but blood making an atonement is what God has ordained. Now if you want to call him violent and primitive that's up to you. Are you saying that Jesus dying and shedding His blood our sins was God murdering Him?

Blood and death is how Jesus atoned for our sins, my friend. The truth is the truth and isn't to be watered down to accomodate modern "civilized" society. Do you believe the Bible is God's word? Do you accept what it says about salvation and what Christ had to do in order to make it possible? The more I read of your posts, the more concerned I am for you. You don't seem to be understanding anything I'm trying to get across to you.

 

[mike1reynolds]

To believe in Jesus is to practice what he taught, which is selfless love. All of your intellectual machinations can’t change that simple and obvious fact.

I haven't said we shouldn't practice what Jesus taught but I still stand on the biblical fact that selfless love won't give you eternal life. That's not the gospel. Jesus saves, yet you seem to be saying that being loving saves.

So believing in Jesus without practicing his teachings will save you?

The fact is people can be loving and not know Christ or ever trust Him as Savior. Their love won't save them. It has nothing to do with "intellectual machinations" and everything to do with the gospel revealed in Scripture.

“Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.” – 1 John 4:7

God is love, Christ is love. If you know selfless love then you know Christ. Christ is the embodiment of selfless love. If you are a being of selfless love then Christ is present in you, even if you never heard of Him.

 

[BarbB]

Time to shake the dust, Lynn.

There's an agenda here and we aren't aware of what it is.

 

[mike1reynolds]

Once again, you don't appear to get a thing I'm saying. Nowhere have I said that most Christians are gong to hell. What I will say is that not all who profess to be Christian are. I think you need to seriously read Galatians 1:1-9. If you think there's any other way of being saved other that by the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, the Bible doesn't agree with you and, imho, you promote another gospel other than the one in Scripture. If I'm understanding you correctly.

You said that those who are not born again do not go too Heaven. Perhaps I misunderstood what appears to be the obvious implications of this statement.

 

[mike1reynolds]

Excuse me, but where have you been? Have you read the Bible? All through the Old Testament, constant blood had to be shed to cover the people's sins until the once and for all perfect Lamb came to be sacrificed one and for all.

I don’t differ with any of this, it is you who are jumping to conclusions about what I’m saying.

Did God demand any of these killings? No, human beings forced God’s hand. You don’t seem to understand the distinction, much less its profound consequences to your interpretation vs. my interpretation.

We don't change the message of the gospel just so as to not turn people off. I hate to tell you this but blood making an atonement is what God has ordained. Now if you want to call him violent and primitive that's up to you. Are you saying that Jesus dying and shedding His blood our sins was God murdering Him?

That is what it sounds like to most people who have turned away from Christianity. I have a strong argument against this which is compelling to people who think like this. Do you?

 

[Lynn73]

I have to get off the computer now. Faith in Christ alone saves, without works. The works flow from being saved, they aren't the means of getting saved. Do you understand? Read Ephesians 2:8-9. By grace are ye saved through faith. NOT OF WORKS. I'm not saying you shouldn't do them. They just don't save. Another Scipture I shared asks what must I do to do the works of God. The answer comes back to believe on Him whom He has sent. All these things like love and good works and such are wonderul but they don't save .Youcan have selfless love and not know Christ. I say with no arrogance or self righteousness that I simply believe that you're very confused as to what saves a person. Selfless love, as wonderful as it is, isn't your Savior. Jesus is. I have to go.

 

[Lynn73]

Time to shake the dust, Lynn.

There's an agenda here and we aren't aware of what it is.

I have to get off anyway. Already been on longer than I intended. You may be right. All I know is something is definitely wrong. It's like..oh well bes drop it. Later.

 

[mike1reynolds]

I have to get off the computer now. Faith in Christ alone saves, without works. The works flow from being saved, they aren't the means of getting saved. Do you understand?

I understand you completely and did before I ever met you. Your's is a common point of view.

Read Ephesians 2:8-9. By grace are ye saved through faith. NOT OF WORKS.

You are taking this out of context, you cannot resolve your interpretation of this statement with the verses I quote. You have no explanation for the verses that I quote in your context. Given your interpretation the verses you quote and the verses that I quote are hopelessly contradictory. How do you resolve this apparent contradiction?

I see no contradiction. As soon as you take credit for your good works they are no longer selfless. If you are saved, and thus, filled with God’s loving and compassionate spirit, then you automatically do good works. They are two sides of the same coin, inextricably interwoven, one cannot exist without the other. That is what real grace is. It descends on you and you become selfless.

But you are taking this out of context and divorcing good works from the experience of God’s love and compassion. The two are inseparable. If you are genuinely feeling God’s presence then you are totally concerned about others and put your own needs last, like a mother with her baby. That is how God feels about us, and that is how you will feel about others when you experience God’s presence.

I'm not saying you shouldn't do them. They just don't save. Another Scipture I shared asks what must I do to do the works of God. The answer comes back to believe on Him whom He has sent. All these things like love and good works and such are wonderul but they don't save.

Well of course you have to take God seriously to begin with. Feeling the presence of God requires tremendous work and soul searching. It is something that I was blessed to have been trained to do in childhood. It is like learning a language, if you start too late you have a much more difficult time. Some people are the poor in spirit, they did not have any spiritual education in childhood. So in order for them to have an experience of God's presence they have to start by simply disciplining their intellectual doubts.

You’re taking these verses out of context, not considering the audience, and trying to apply them universally.

You can have selfless love and not know Christ.

That is contrary to Scripture: “…everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.” –John 4:7

 

[mike1reynolds]

There's an agenda here and we aren't aware of what it is.

My motives are transparent, the same as yours. Do you think that I'm trying to get too something else? The point is salvation vs. the intellectual deceptions of the Devil.

False prophets preach from the Bible and quote verses too. The Devil uses intellectual manipulations like debating academics, exploiting loopholes in people’s understanding of Scripture. Only a solid grounded understanding can slice through the deceptive abstractions and false assumptions. The Devil thrives off of circular reasoning, and takes Scripture out of context to lead people too make false assumptions. Circular reasoning is an argument that assumes its own conclusion, an assumption that is considered to be self-proving. The Devil loves circular reasoning about Scripture. It is the root of false unloving religion which aid demons in their work of breeding conflict and negativity.

 

[mike1reynolds]

I am very passionate about this topic because it is one of the lies that sabotaged my faith as a child. At eight, after my maternal grandfather’s death, I decided that the most important thing that anyone can do is serve God, so I decided to become a theologian, pastor or priest. Unfortunately I was raised Protestant. Methodists are one of the least fanatical, but no one could answer my tough questions, no one could provide a picture of God that was logical and just. To follow their arguments, God had to be a bigot, and to me as a child that made less sense than no God at all. So by the time I was 9 I was struggling against atheism. By the time I hit puberty at 12 it was unstoppable. It lasted until I was 21, when my father and paternal grandfather finally found an opening through the study of parallel religion that shook me awake and helped me to see the truth of Christianity again. Those 9 years were the darkest in my life, I thought of suicide often.

When you loose something and find it again, it means much more to you than when you take it for granted.

 

[Splayd]

Before I invest any more time and energy in this thread I want to be clear on what you're saying mike.
Are you suggesting that 1 John Chapter 4 indicates that anyone, regardless of whether or not they have faith, will be saved if they exhibit selfless love towards others?

 

[Flicker]

Actually, the Bible says that God will destroy all unconverted people. See 2 Thess. 1:6-9.

 

[Lynn73]

My motives are transparent, the same as yours. Do you think that I'm trying to get too something else? The point is salvation vs. the intellectual deceptions of the Devil.

False prophets preach from the Bible and quote verses too. The Devil uses intellectual manipulations like debating academics, exploiting loopholes in people’s understanding of Scripture. Only a solid grounded understanding can slice through the deceptive abstractions and false assumptions. The Devil thrives off of circular reasoning, and takes Scripture out of context to lead people too make false assumptions. Circular reasoning is an argument that assumes its own conclusion, an assumption that is considered to be self-proving. The Devil loves circular reasoning about Scripture. It is the root of false unloving religion which aid demons in their work of breeding conflict and negativity.

I'm not sure you have the solid grounded understanding that you're talking about. All I've heard from you is a gospel of selfless love and if we follow that we'll be saved. That's not the gospel revealed in Scripture as to how we're saved and that's what you need to be grounded in. The truth revealed in God's word. As a whole, not just bits and pieces you pick and decide to make a twisted, unbalanced theology out of. It's you who is taking Scripture out of context. Wherever biblical truth is proclaimed there is going to be conflict. People didn't like what Jesus had to say and they won't like what we have to say either.

 

[Lynn73]

That is contrary to Scripture: “…everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.” –John 4:7

Even atheists have love for their families. Are they saved? No, they aren't. So either God is contradicting Himself or we need to take this Scripture along with the rest of Scripture and find the right interpretation. In light of the other Scripture, this cannot mean that everyone who loves is saved or else there's a lot of other Scripture that must be thrown out and ignored. This may be speaking of a certain type of love that only Christians have. I'm not sure but this I do know, not everyone who loves is saved.

 

[Flicker]

God is going to operate his punishment upon an unconverted person in a manner calculated to destroy them unless they believe Jesus died for their sins. John 3:36. That much is clear from the Bible.