Do Disbelievers Go Too Hell?

[Flicker]

I guess people who begin genocides and never repent of it are in heaven right?

Hmm...

To the glory of God,

Randy

Why not?

 

[quarter21]

People don't go to hell because they aren't Christians or simply because they don't know Jesus... that would be a cruel God. People go to hell because they lie, steal, murder, hate (hatred in the bible even is considered murder in God's eye, matt 5, 1 Jn 3:15,.... if you don't agree, who raises the bar of what is right and what is wrong), ext. What good judge would not feel angry if his children committed murder, and not do what is right in sending them to jail. Yet what judge deep down would also not feel remorse, and sadness as well as grief, because his children committed wrong, and are now rotting away in jail?

People go to hell because that is just punishment. Look into a newspaper.. if it says that someone recieved a fine of 50 dollars you can assume the crime was small. If the person recieved life sentence, you can tell the person has done something wrong. Well america seems to judge what is right and what is wrong. Yet if you see in revelations 21:8... all liars will have their part in lake of fire..... meaning a lie is actually really serious though we treat it as if nothing. Perhaps you say a lie is not that bad. Some crazy murderers think what they have done is not that bad.... yet we are the ones that set the standard.

Jesus is like the lawyer that can work on our defense. Other religions can't because many work on works to get to heaven.... almost like someone that committed drug pushing that states "yes judge, but I gave money to the poor".

Christianity is true because it provides the most logical way to know God and realize how Holy He is.

If I murdered your family (only an example), and I mentioned to the judge that I am sincerely sorry.... and he let me off the hook... how would you feel for a judge with such lack of justice? would you be able to welcome me as your friend? My family owned a hair salon.. my mom was not happy comming into her very first own business ever and finding shampoo stolen which comes out of her pocket.. she didn't realize people were going to treat her that way. And that was something small.

If God is holy and just.. He will punish the people like hitler, people that have murdered innocent children, rapists, but where do we draw the line? What about people that sell drugs to little children? Yes of course that is wrong. If you think it is only wrong as each person views it.. .would you want someone doing all described above to your loved ones and to you? Where does the line stop... God is not going to stop at the drug dealers, but also thieves, adulterers, and liars.

This leaves everyone out? yes, Bible says we have all sinned. Most religions can attest to that. Yet we can't bribe God, as mentioned above. Punishment must take place, and Jesus took it for us. As if He took the bullet for us.

People go to hell because they do wrong, not because they dont know Jesus.. just like someone goes to jail becaue they do wrong not because they don't have a good lawyer.

Was hell created by a tripped out man? Does that make sense again? Using my past example... like a judge that would send hitler to jail for life... is that judge tripped out for creating a punishment system for hitler? Or is the person stating this question not believe in a loving God? Does not God love the jews whom hitler murdered? Would not God see justice done on hitler?

Does anyone have a problem with my analogies?

 

[Flicker]

Does not God love the jews whom hitler murdered? Would not God see justice done on hitler?

Don't forget, the vast majority of Jews exterminated by Hitler were not Christians, and thus God will punish them just as he will punish Hitler.

 

[mike1reynolds]

The Bible says very clearly that it is selfless love that gets us into Heaven and nothing else. To try to redefine selfless love like an intellectual doesn’t change the fact that selfless love has a clear and unambiguous meaning.

Selfless love is not the following of commandments, it is the other way around, if you have selfless love then you automatically follow those commandments without having to be told, even if you don’t even know that those commandments were written down. It was written on paper for primitive savages, but to the person who has God in their heart those commandments are indelibly written on their heart.

Being a good person is not a complex unfathomable mystery, the Golden Rule is about as simple as simple gets. If you are a loving and compassionate person then God’s commandments will be embodied by you automatically.

Someone asserted that just saying that you are a loving person doesn’t get you into Heaven. Of course not. You have to be a loving and compassionate person. God sees what is in your heart. He judges us by the content of our hearts, not our intellects. Show me a single passage in the Bible that says that God judges your head and not your heart?

By the same token, just giving lip service to God is of no help at all. You can profess the Lord all day long, but if you are not a loving and compassionate person it won’t do you the slightest bit of good:

"Knowing the correct password--saying "Master, Master,' for instance--isn't going to get you anywhere with me. What is required is serious obedience--doing what my Father wills. I can see it now--at the Final Judgment thousands strutting up to me and saying, "Master, we preached the Message, we bashed the demons, our God-sponsored projects had everyone talking.' And do you know what I am going to say? "You missed the boat. All you did was use me to make yourselves important. You don't impress me one bit. You're out of here.'

What does the Father will? That we be like Him, compassionate, loving and selfless. All of this focus on legalistic concepts and the intellectual differences in the beliefs of others is contrary to God. God is not an intellectual or a lawyer.

The Bible also says in several places that teachers will be judged by a stricter standard. A small sin for others is a big sin for someone who presumed to teach others. If you try to teach people that God is an intellectual who sends everyone to Hell who disagrees with conservative Christian intellectual concepts, He is going to have something to say about that at your trial.

(BTW, the Message translation of the Bible is by far my favorite. It does a much better job of capturing the subtle nuances of the languages that are being translated from. For example, I had a debate with an atheist who asserted that Jesus was racist because he called a Greek Syrian woman a dog in Mark and Matthew. All translations on Biblegateway.com said dog except the Message, which accurately translated it as “whelping puppy”.)

 

[mike1reynolds]

Don't forget, the vast majority of Jews exterminated by Hitler were not Christians, and thus God will punish them just as he will punish Hitler.

So you think that God is an intellectual who condemns people for what is in their head rather than what is in their hearts?

How does this opinion of yours help you to know God's love? Does it help you to feel the presence of God? No, it bolsters your ego, makes you feel more imporant than people of other religions.

"You missed the boat. All you did was use me to make yourselves important. You don't impress me one bit. You're out of here.'

 

[Melethiel]

(BTW, the Message translation of the Bible is by far my favorite. It does a much better job of capturing the subtle nuances of the languages that are being translated from. For example, I had a debate with an atheist who asserted that Jesus was racist because he called a Greek Syrian woman a dog in Mark and Matthew. All translations on Biblegateway.com said dog except the Message, which accurately translated it as “whelping puppy”.)

The Message isn't a translation, it's a paraphrase. It's okay for reading, but too inaccurate to be used for study.

 

[Lynn73]

People don't go to hell because they aren't Christians or simply because they don't know Jesus... that would be a cruel God. People go to hell because they lie, steal, murder, hate (hatred in the bible even is considered murder in God's eye, matt 5, 1 Jn 3:15,.... if you don't agree, who raises the bar of what is right and what is wrong), ext. What good judge would not feel angry if his children committed murder, and not do what is right in sending them to jail. Yet what judge deep down would also not feel remorse, and sadness as well as grief, because his children committed wrong, and are now rotting away in jail?

People go to hell because that is just punishment. Look into a newspaper.. if it says that someone recieved a fine of 50 dollars you can assume the crime was small. If the person recieved life sentence, you can tell the person has done something wrong. Well america seems to judge what is right and what is wrong. Yet if you see in revelations 21:8... all liars will have their part in lake of fire..... meaning a lie is actually really serious though we treat it as if nothing. Perhaps you say a lie is not that bad. Some crazy murderers think what they have done is not that bad.... yet we are the ones that set the standard.

Jesus is like the lawyer that can work on our defense. Other religions can't because many work on works to get to heaven.... almost like someone that committed drug pushing that states "yes judge, but I gave money to the poor".

Christianity is true because it provides the most logical way to know God and realize how Holy He is.

If I murdered your family (only an example), and I mentioned to the judge that I am sincerely sorry.... and he let me off the hook... how would you feel for a judge with such lack of justice? would you be able to welcome me as your friend? My family owned a hair salon.. my mom was not happy comming into her very first own business ever and finding shampoo stolen which comes out of her pocket.. she didn't realize people were going to treat her that way. And that was something small.

If God is holy and just.. He will punish the people like hitler, people that have murdered innocent children, rapists, but where do we draw the line? What about people that sell drugs to little children? Yes of course that is wrong. If you think it is only wrong as each person views it.. .would you want someone doing all described above to your loved ones and to you? Where does the line stop... God is not going to stop at the drug dealers, but also thieves, adulterers, and liars.

This leaves everyone out? yes, Bible says we have all sinned. Most religions can attest to that. Yet we can't bribe God, as mentioned above. Punishment must take place, and Jesus took it for us. As if He took the bullet for us.

People go to hell because they do wrong, not because they dont know Jesus.. just like someone goes to jail becaue they do wrong not because they don't have a good lawyer.

Was hell created by a tripped out man? Does that make sense again? Using my past example... like a judge that would send hitler to jail for life... is that judge tripped out for creating a punishment system for hitler? Or is the person stating this question not believe in a loving God? Does not God love the jews whom hitler murdered? Would not God see justice done on hitler?

Does anyone have a problem with my analogies?

People still do wrong even after becoming Christian. Do you know any perfect, sinless Christians? Yet Christians aren't going to hell. People go to hell because they are outside of Christ, God's only provision for salvation. If we all were to receive justice, we'd all go to hell because we're all guilty. Christ is God's only provision for our salvation. He atoned for our sins and those in Him won't go to hell, those outside of Him will. So, yes, people do go to hell for not accepting by faith Christ's provision for their salvation. If Hitler had trusted Christ as Savior on his deathbed, he would've gone to heaven.

mike1reynolds, selfless love, keeping the commandments, and the golden rule do not get us into heaven. That isn't Scriptural. The shed blood of Christ gets us into heaven. There isn't any amount of good works or being good that will entitle you to one minute of heaven. It's a gift we receive by faith in Jesus Christ. There's only one way to heaven and that is through the Door, Jesus Christ. You can keep the golden rule, be selfessly loving and still go to hell.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

To the OP.... (I didn't read the other posts yet.)

You misunderstand about Heaven and Hell... Sin and Salvation...

Heaven and Hell are one and the same place... in front of God for all eternity.... some of us will "turn away" eternally from God... that is Hell.

God is not Angry at us... God is Love.

Forgive me.....

 

[mike1reynolds]

If Hitler had trusted Christ as Savior on his deathbed, he would've gone to heaven.

He certainly claimed too. He once even said, “I have come to finish the work that Christ started.” So according to you, Hitler is in Heaven.

mike1reynolds, selfless love, keeping the commandments, and the golden rule do not get us into heaven. That isn't Scriptural.

I quoted scripture in this regard. You ignore and contradict the verse in Matthew that says that one must do the Father wills, God’s bidding, which is to love selflessly.

The shed blood of Christ gets us into heaven. There isn't any amount of good works or being good that will entitle you to one minute of heaven. It's a gift we receive by faith in Jesus Christ. There's only one way to heaven and that is through the Door, Jesus Christ. You can keep the golden rule, be selfessly loving and still go to hell.

Then what is the distinction that Jesus refers to in Matthew 7:21-23 where some people who profess to be Christian will be accepted by the Lord and others will not? Clearly grace and profession of faith are insufficient if one is egotistical and conceited about one’s faith.

 

[BarbB]

So, Mike1Reynolds, where does Jesus fit into YOUR theology?

 

[Lynn73]

He certainly claimed too. He once even said, “I have come to finish the work that Christ started.” So according to you, Hitler is in Heaven.

Claiming and being can be two different things. Hitler was a maniac. Christ's work wasn't to eliminate a race of people from the earth by murdering them. But I stand by what I said. If, before he died, he truly repented and trusted in Christ, he went to heaven. Not because of anything he did or didn't do, but because of what Christ did. I nowhere stated that he is in heaven because I can't know that. Reread what I said.

I quoted scripture in this regard. You ignore and contradict the verse in Matthew that says that one must do the Father wills, God’s bidding, which is to love selflessly.

That's not all that's in the Father's will but it doesn't change that you ignore Scripture that clearly show that only through Christ is anyone saved. You ignore the gospel which is Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose the third day. No one will be saved by loving if they ignore God's provision which is Christ who said that He is the way, the truth, and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father but by Him.

Then what is the distinction that Jesus refers to in Matthew 7:21-23 where some people who profess to be Christian will be accepted by the Lord and others will not? Clearly grace and profession of faith are insufficient if one is egotistical and conceited about one’s faith.

The distinction is that not everyone who professes to be Christians really are. Their actions will show that they are real. The Lord will tell some of these people that he NEVER knew them. They weren't really His no matter what they professed or what they did in His name. He knows who really belongs to Him and who doesn't.

 

[mike1reynolds]

That's not all that's in the Father's will but it doesn't change that you ignore Scripture that clearly show that only through Christ is anyone saved. You ignore the gospel which is Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose the third day.

I ignore no such thing, but I don’t give it an interpretation like it was idol worship sacrifice. Jesus died to save the world from certain destruction. His sacrifice balanced the collective bad works of humans that would have resulted in automatic destruction of the Earth.

No one will be saved by loving if they ignore God's provision which is Christ who said that He is the way, the truth, and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father but by Him.

And He will only save those who have worked at being like Him, which is selfless and loving.

The distinction is that not everyone who professes to be Christians really are. Their actions will show that they are real. The Lord will tell some of these people that he NEVER knew them. They weren't really His no matter what they professed or what they did in His name. He knows who really belongs to Him and who doesn't.

You side stepped the who question with the word really. So who is really a Christian and who is not? How do you have any notion of God’s criteria for who is real and who isn’t in this regard if you reject the only criteria that He gave, which is to work at being and thinking like His selfless and loving way of being and thinking?

All of these counter arguments are focused on the head rather than the heart. I challenge anyone to provide scripture that says that God judges people by their intellectual concepts rather than by what is in their hearts. All of the misinterpretations come from assuming that a verse applies to the head and not the heart, but there is no scriptural backing for these kinds of misinterpretations. The only scriptural backing in this regard is that God judges you by what is in your heart and never exclusively by what is in your head.

 

[BarbB]

So saying that we can only be saved by Jesus is idol worship?

 

[mike1reynolds]

To say that you are automatically saved simply by holding an intellectual belief is contradicted by Matthew 7:23.

In idol worship, one propitiates a god and supposedly receives benefit by this propitiation alone, without having to do anything else.

 

[BarbB]

To say that you are automatically saved simply by holding an intellectual belief is contradicted by Matthew 7:23.

.

It's not an intellectual belief to be born-again. Without Jesus, it's impossible to be born again. Without being born-again, you are not saved.

You seem to be espousing a Christianity of works - love and you will be saved. But where's Jesus?

 

[Lynn73]

I ignore no such thing, but I don’t give it an interpretation like it was idol worship sacrifice. Jesus died to save the world from certain destruction. His sacrifice balanced the collective bad works of humans that would have resulted in automatic destruction of the Earth.

What in the word are you talking about? Truly the "gospel" you seen to be promoting is foreign to me and what I see in the Bible. Jesus didn't die to save the world from destruction, he died to save us from our sins. His sacrifice had nothing to do with balancing collective bad works to avoid earthly destruction. It had everything to do with atoning for our sins before a Holy God.

And He will only save those who have worked at being like Him, which is selfless and loving.

Sorry, it sounds good but that's not what the Bible says. He saves those who truly believe in Him and trust His atoning sacfrifice for their sins. Like it or not, friend, this is what the Bible says. There are plenty of people who, no doubt, work at being like Him and who are loving but won't see heaven because they never trust Him as Savior. Do you know what the gospel is?

You side stepped the who question with the word really. So who is really a Christian and who is not? How do you have any notion of God’s criteria for who is real and who isn’t in this regard if you reject the only criteria that He gave, which is to work at being and thinking like His selfless and loving way of being and thinking?

I side step nothing. The Bible makes it clear what one must do to be a Christian and it's all about the gospel of Jesus Christ, not what you're promoting. Selfless loving, as wonderful as that is, doesn't make anyone a Christian. When the Philippian jailor asked what he must do to be saved, the answer came back that he must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, not that you must selflessly love. You aren't, imho, promoting the gospel of Jesus Christ and the true plan of salvation is revealed in Scripture.

To say that you are automatically saved simply by holding an intellectual belief is contradicted by Matthew 7:23.

In idol worship, one propitiates a god and supposedly receives benefit by this propitiation alone, without having to do anything else.

Who said anything about intillectual belief saving? Mental assent doesn't save. True belief does, however, which is a lot more than just intellecutal belief. We don't have to do anything else to be saved. See Ephesians 2:8-9. All through the Scriptures you'll see the word belief associated with salvation.



John 6:28-29 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.



All the other things such as works, love, becoming more like Christ flows from being saved, they aren't the means of getting saved. In my humble opinion, you should carefully reread the New Testament and see if you're really promoting the true gospel. Check out Galatians 1:6-9. That is serious. Frankly, I'm concerned.

 

[mike1reynolds]

It's not an intellectual belief to be born-again. Without Jesus, it's impossible to be born again. Without being born-again, you are not saved.

If being born-again is not a belief system, then what is it?

A Catholic friend use to say, we don’t need to be born again, we got it right the first time!

Jokes aside, when I was 8 my grandparents mistakenly sent me to an evangelical summer Bible school. They talked about having a closer relationship with Jesus and that sounded fantastic so I immediately raised my hand. At 8 I knew that serving God is the most important thing anyone can do, so I wanted to be a priest, theologian or pastor and I was very eager to learn as much as I could.

They took me into a private room and the councilor described being born again. I said that it all sounded wonderful except for the part about acknowledging that one had not previously accepted Jesus. It would have been a lie for me to say and I told him that I could not lie like that. He looked disappointed and quickly the session was over. I found the experience very negative and talked with my grandparents about it, who immediately agreed to send me too another Bible school.

You seem to be espousing a Christianity of works - love and you will be saved. But where's Jesus?

He was a tangible example of how we should try to be. God can’t teach by example in this regard, we had to have a living breathing flesh and blood example.

 

[JohnRyan]

I don't even believe in Hell, yet I am still a Christian. The word "hell" is a mistranslation of the Greek and Hebrew as is the word "eternal."

If anybody is interested in learning about the True Christianity without Eternal Hell-fire I'd be glad to discuss it, though I may not be the best person for the job. I would just share my views now, but it would take up too much of my time and would be a waste if no one wanted to hear it.

 

[Lynn73]

No one has said we should'nt try to be like Jesus but this isn't what saves. Jesus came here specifically to die for our sins. That was His first purpose. We're saved by faith in Him, not by trying to be like Him. Once we're born again, the Spirit begins to conform us to His image. I think you're confused on what actually saves a person and gives them eternal life. No amount of our attempts at being good provide salvation. Any righteousness we think we're producing on our own is filthy rags in God's sight. It's the blood He's looking for. Christ's blood cleanses us from sin, not our good works or our love or our attempts to emulate Christ.

 

[mike1reynolds]

What in the word are you talking about? Truly the "gospel" you seen to be promoting is foreign to me and what I see in the Bible. Jesus didn't die to save the world from destruction, he died to save us from our sins. His sacrifice had nothing to do with balancing collective bad works to avoid earthly destruction. It had everything to do with atoning for our sins before a Holy God.

You act as though I have not described atonement for our sins. The sins of intolerance and conceit are alive and well today just as they were then, and that is what Jesus died for.

Sorry, it sounds good but that's not what the Bible says. He saves those who truly believe in Him and trust His atoning sacfrifice for their sins. Like it or not, friend, this is what the Bible says.

You can only construe my statements as unbiblical by altering them. Intellectuals make these kinds of “straw man” arguments all the time, it is a very intellectual process.

There are plenty of people who, no doubt, work at being like Him and who are loving but won't see heaven because they never trust Him as Savior. Do you know what the gospel is?

Far better than you. Your statement here is just an insult. You self-righteously assume that anyone who differs with you is an ignorant fool. That is how arrogant intellectuals feel too.

I side step nothing. The Bible makes it clear what one must do to be a Christian and it's all about the gospel of Jesus Christ, not what you're promoting. Selfless loving, as wonderful as that is, doesn't make anyone a Christian. When the Philippian jailor asked what he must do to be saved, the answer came back that he must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, not that you must selflessly love. You aren't, imho, promoting the gospel of Jesus Christ and the true plan of salvation is revealed in Scripture.

To believe in Jesus is to practice what he taught, which is selfless love. All of your intellectual machinations can’t change that simple and obvious fact.

Who said anything about intillectual belief saving? Mental assent doesn't save. True belief does, however, which is a lot more than just intellecutal belief.

I agree that True belief is embracing God’s selfless love, which is a feeling and not a thought. But you are full of thoughts, not selfless compassion. How are your beliefs anything more than intellectual concepts?

All the other things such as works, love, becoming more like Christ flows from being saved, they aren't the means of getting saved.

You have turned the spiritual path on its head, intellectual beliefs flow from what is in one’s heart, not the other way around. True belief as you put it comes from an experience, from feeling the presence of God and His peace and love. You can’t get too this simply by paying lip service and adopting a belief system.

In my humble opinion, you should carefully reread the New Testament and see if you're really promoting the true gospel. Check out Galatians 1:6-9. That is serious. Frankly, I'm concerned.

You seem angry to me. And your opinions do not come across as humble, they come across as extremely judgmental. That is why evangelicals have such a bad rap with the majority of Christians who are turned off by this.

I suggest that you read Matthew 7:21-23 more closely, as well as 1 John 4. This is how most Christians think. You clearly believe that most Christians are going too Hell. Matthew 7:21-23 says that you should think again and not focus so much on the mote in the eyes of others, the plank in your own eye is much more serious.



P.S. This thing sure is annoying the way it keeps inserting empty quote blocks automatically. I noticed that you got hit by that, and I keep having to edit my messages to remove them...