We can only make decisions according to the understanding that is given unto us by another , not ourselves : But God : Phil 2(13): For it is GOD who works in you both to will and do of his good purpose ! So it is effectively God not ourselves !Okay, very good.
No, God does not violate man's free will.
Likewise, man cannot violate God's free will.
No, God will not force man to do anything.
Yes, that is the truth. Man's fallen nature predisposes man towards sin. Not only this, but man also inherits death from Adam. Yes, God is very merciful in saving sinners. What is your point?
( 7 ) : ” THE GREATEST FALSE TEACHING OF THE CHURCHES ! “Ordain. The Bible says that he predestined for them to do it.
Col 1(17): He is before ALL things and by him ALL things consist ! and Eph 1(11): Him who works ALL things after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL ! : Those who keep saying God didn't do this or didn't do that are continually attacking GOD : not a good position to be in !Au contraire!
"Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand." Isaiah 53:10
While the sovereign will of God is a difficult discussion - attempts to deny His absolute sovereign predestination of everything which happens in His creation is an attempt to diminish Him and it does not please Him for anyone to do so.
People may be well meaning, I suppose, in their unscriptural conjectures - but they are rejecting the Word of God non the less.
Calvinists may have some faults theologically. They are debatable.
But their theology concerning the sovereignty of God is a well meaning (and pretty much right on IMO) attempt to tackle a difficult subject.
It is better by far than the statements of those who simply want to criticize while adding little to the theological discussion on the subject.
P.S. - This criticism could have been leveled at any number of folks here. I simple chose your post to respond to because it was there and because you were the original OP.
Acts 13(48); As many as were ordained unto eternal believed ! These are the predestined whosoever in John 3(16) : Only those who were pre ordained !I have another question. Do Calvinists believe in John 3:16? If so what is their interpretation of it?
Romans 9(11-22) !Election is not according to God's hidden will, but revealed in Jesus. God chooses us in Jesus. Our salvation is not a matter of God sovereignly choosing is and isn't saved, but God choosing us in His grace.
This is fundamentally different. In the Calvinist system, God picks some to be saved, and thus there are some not chosen for salvation. That is not the Lutheran position--God does not look past, overlook, or choose anyone not to be saved--Christ died for everyone, and God's will and desire is that everyone be saved.
The point isn't that God says only some can be saved.
The point is that God is the One who comes to us to save us in Jesus; and He does this for the whole world.
Of course God doesn't will for man to sin. Sin is contrary to the will of God. God is not the author of evil.
The difference is that God's election is not by some hidden, inscrutable, sovereign choice; but by grace through the Incarnate Logos.
That isn't the Lutheran opposition, the Lutheran opposition to synergism is that attributes to man works which contribute to his salvation. It's not that it detracts from God's glory, but that it detracts from God's grace. When the Lutheran confesses that salvation is by grace alone, we mean that in the most absolute of terms: Grace alone. It is God who comes down, not we who go up. It is God who meets us, not us meeting God half way. It is God, in His mercy, kindness, and love embracing the humility and shame of the cross that rescues us, makes us right with God, and heals us.
It is intrinsically about making a firm distinction between Law and Gospel. From Luther's Heidelberg Disputation: "The Law says 'Do this' and it is never done. Grace says 'Trust this' and it is already done." The Law commands that which is good and right, and reveals that we are not righteous, but sinners; the Law is therefore unable to save us. No one can be righteous according to the Law, except One: Jesus Christ by whose righteous obedience has undone Adam's disobedience, by His death and resurrection crucifies sin and death and heals us, justifying us before God, and uniting us to Himself and to His life as pure gift, so that we have in Him sonship, by which we are heirs of God, joint-heirs with Jesus, and by the Spirit cry out, "Abba! Father!" and are made partakers of the divine nature, by grace, ultimately to the fullness that we will have in the resurrection of the dead, the eternal and immortal life in the Age to Come.
Lutheranism speaks of the distinction between Coram Deo and Coram Hominibus; that is us before God and us before our fellow human beings. To put it another way, God doesn't need our good works, but our neighbor does. God does not benefit from our good deeds, but our neighbor does--because they have hungry mouths to feed, they are thirsty and need drink, a roof over their head. The Law of God calls us outward, in love, toward others, in service to Jesus Christ, to live lives as living sacrifices to God. Our sacrifices, however, do not improve our status before God, it does not improve our station before God--the love and grace of God which He has for us in Jesus, which we have received in full from Him, received in faith through Word and Sacrament is truly, and indeed, full. We can't win brownie points with God, we can't make Him love us less, and we can't make Him love us more--He loves us fully, perfectly, and completely because, as St. John reminds us, God is love.
So what are our good deeds for? Are they for God? No, they are for our fellow man. Nothing we can do can increase, improve, or contribute to what God has already done for us, and already gives us. For He gives us the fullness of Himself in Jesus, the love we have, the grace we have, the salvation we have from Him is perfect and complete; for Christ died for the whole world. As St. Paul says, by grace we have been saved, not by our efforts, so that no one may boast; but we have been created for good works which have been prepared for us, that we might walk in them (Ephesians 2:10). The good works we do are not to improve our place before God, as though God rewards us based on our merits; but rather the works we do we do out of love for God and in response to the great love He has for us, and we do them for the sake of our neighbor.
Good works aren't that we might be saved, but rather we have been saved for good works.
We say it is monergistic because man is a passive recipient of God's mercies. Man does have a role to play in the living out of his faith, the living out of his salvation in the grace and love of God--that is the Coram Hominibus dimension of our Christian life. Christianity is not a purely vertical experience--us and God. It is also a horizontal one, us and other people and all of creation. Salvation comes solely from above, from God, down to us, as grace; but this grace and this life we have received is to be lived out in sacrifice and service to others. The Lutheran distinction is to say that the Coram Hominibus dimension of Christian life is not about our contributing to our salvation (what we have received from God) but of living that salvation out in response to God's grace.
This isn't the Lutheran position, however. God doesn't choose to damn anyone. God damns nobody. Since it is God's will that everyone be saved, Christ died for everyone. We damn ourselves. God is not unjust, since He does not pick and choose who will and won't be saved; God is just and the justifier of the unjust.
God alone saves.
Man alone damns.
To quote C.S. Lewis, "There are only two kinds of people in the end, those who say to God, 'Thy will be done.' And to those to whom God says, 'Thy will be done.'"
St. Isaac the Syrian speaks of two kinds of people in the end, those who experience the love of God as blessedness, and those who experience the love of God as anguish--but God deprives His love from no one, for love is impartial, and God's love is for everyone. The distinction isn't God's disposition toward us, but our disposition toward God. What the Lutheran says is that our disposition toward God changes, not by our own will, but by God's grace which comes to us through the Gospel, granting us faith.
Why then are some damned? Not by God's decree, will, or choice--but by man's own sinful, willful choice. It is man who chooses his own destruction. It is God's will that he be saved and live and have life abundantly in the Age to Come.
-CryptoLutheran
It’s apparent your opinion and interpretation of what Paul’s explaning in Romans 9 is that which Paul anticipates and answers. Your objection to Gods Sovereign freedom in showing mercy on some and hardening others is rebuked in verses 19-23. The natural tendency of sinful man is to reject what Paul’s saying by elevating mans freedom and Gods unjustness. But yet in this chapter grace is magnifiedSorry, I have read Romans 9 numerous times, and I believe it is you who need to carefully study it, since it is apparent you consider your interpretation the correct one, supporting the Calvinistic doctrine of predestination.
Rom 8(28): All things work together for good to them that are the called ! Well one says how could evil ever work together for good ? Well according to God himself : Evil is needed to become as a God : Genesis 3(22): God speaking : The man is become as one of us , to know good AND EVIL ! Do according to God both good AND EVIL are needed to become as a God ! So God has created all things , even the things we don't understand and think are bad and then erroneously say God did not create because we erroneously think they are bad : that's why the bible says lean not unto your own understanding !Your point John?
So does God force men to deny him? And to sin? And to lie?God pre ordains both Good and Evil : Col 1(17) !
Ephesians 1(11): Him who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL ! If all things are already after his will it is impossible to have our will as all things are already after his will ! What part of this do you not understand ?It just sounds to me like you haven't done the math. 2+2=4. If you keep thinking about these Scriptures you'll see it.
Acts 13(48), Prov 16(4) : Hey Bruce , how are you ?So does God force men to deny him? And to sin? And to lie?
God cannot deny himself
God cannot lie
And God does no iniquity
And God does not temp men with evil
Jesus said,
Luke 11 - 9. And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.”
He did not say “I will force you as a robot to ask and I will force you as a robot to seek and I will force you as a robot to knock and I will force the door opened regardless of what you think believe say or do . “
Clay in the great potters hands : Thank God : nobody can do a better job then God Why would you even want a free will ? : Do you really think you could do a better job then God? I am so happy to be just clay or a robot if you prefer in the great potters hands .So does God force men to deny him? And to sin? And to lie?
God cannot deny himself
God cannot lie
And God does no iniquity
And God does not temp men with evil
Jesus said,
Luke 11 - 9. And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.”
He did not say “I will force you as a robot to ask and I will force you as a robot to seek and I will force you as a robot to knock and I will force the door opened regardless of what you think believe say or do . “
Acts 13(48); As many as were ordained unto eternal believed ! These are the predestined whosoever in John 3(16) : Only those who were pre ordained !
Clay in the great potters hands : Thank God : nobody can do a better job then God Why would you even want a free will ? : Do you really think you could do a better job then God? I am so happy to be just clay or a robot if you prefer in the great potters hands .
No man is able to pluck them out of the fathers hand , not even themselves as they qualify as a man : ALL that the father gives : none are lost : He not only knows who are his beforehand but the very hairs of their heads are numbered : How is that for knowing who his predestined elect are knowing the number of their hairs !I would like to chime in even though that was not intended for me. No! Absolutely not! Any other answer is blasphemous.
Agreed.
Yes we do.
The issue I have with both your view and Calvinist theology is the idea of monergism. And I have heard from some reformed believers that one of their issues with synergism is that they believe that if they accept this to be the truth, then they will forfeit the fullness of God's glory and attribute some of it to man. This could not be further from the truth!
I'm sorry, reading this I feel like Job telling his friends, 'who doesn't know this'? Who in Christendom would disagree with that?
We must bear fruit, our hearts must surrender to the will of God, there is a choice, a time of decision and that will decide our fate. Still it is by grace alone, faith alone and the authority of Scripture alone, because that's the witness of Christ and the Apostles. We cannot abandon the responsibility of the sinner to repent and receive the gospel, that option is simply not available.
First of all, pardon me for butting in, I realize this isn't meant for me. Secondly, there is nothing in Calvinism that says God knew before the foundation of the world that everyone who will be saved is predetermined. It's been argued by some Calvinists based on the book of life have the names of everyone who will be saved. But Jesus said something about blotting out certain names. What I think happens is that every soul who comes into the world has his or her name in the book of life. If they, for whatever reason, become a child of perdition, their name is blotted out.
At any rate, that's my take on it. Maybe I'm not a very good Calvinist but that's the Scriptures as I understand them.
Grace and peace,
Mark
I’m continuing in the faith abiding in ChristActs 13(48), Prov 16(4) : Hey Bruce , how are you ?
The Prisoners of Christ : Amen !The why do we need the Bible or the Church? Those who aren’t chosen by God won’t obey and those who are chosen have no control over themselves.
Again you don’t answer the questions that will expose this doctrine and help you to be free of itClay in the great potters hands : Thank God : nobody can do a better job then God Why would you even want a free will ? : Do you really think you could do a better job then God? I am so happy to be just clay or a robot if you prefer in the great potters hands .
A bondslave had to willingly join to the houseThe Prisoners of Christ : Amen !
Read Romans 9(11-22): Argue with that if you like !The God only loves those who are ordained! Or does He love the people that He doesn’t ordain also yet causes them to burn in the lake of fire because they weren’t chosen?
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