Do calvinists believe that God wills them to sin?

[Tree of Life]

God is in the business of exposing sin, he never ordained anything that was not the righteousness of God in Christ.

The Bible teaches that God does ordain our sin to his own just and holy ends. I've already referenced some passages to this end. But just thinking about the cross of Christ is enough.

God ordained that Jesus would be murdered. To murder Jesus was a sin. God ordained this sinful, free act of men to his own just and holy ends.

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

But what you claim is that a man cannot freely choose to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and accept the grace of God without being quickened from his "totally depraved" state. Calvinists believe that by the "Irresistible Grace" of God, a man is given life so as to have faith, thereby granting unconditional election, whether the individual would have chosen said salvation or not. You also do not believe that Christ died for the entire world, and that a saint must endure to the end to be saved; while "Perseverance of the Saints" states that all saints will endure to the end, it is dramatically different from the doctrine of "Once saved, Always saved."

Am I right or wrong?

I think it's paradoxical in a way.

Think of the elect as true believers. We believe in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. We demonstrate our election to others through our works which demonstrate Christ in us.

 

[mark kennedy]

As much as predestination is scriptural, the funniest thing is seeing humans trying to actually explain it. Would you like to fall into a Black Hole as well? Contemplate the Trinity? Get in a time machine and kill your grandfather? Or __insert paradox here_.

Even funnier is actually making it a central tenet of one's faith. It's one thing to believe it. Another to actually enshrine it!

On the subject of predestination, what does it mean for the Lamb to be 'slain from the creation of the world'?

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world. (Rev. 13:8)​

 

[sunlover1]

That's an interesting thought. But it's not what the Bible teaches.

Acts 4:27-28 - 27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

Three Biblical facts:
God had predestined Jesus to die.
God does not ordain sin.
God knows the future.

Unless you disagree with my 3 biblical facts ^

 

[Tree of Life]

On the subject of predestination, what does it mean for the Lamb to be 'slain from the creation of the world'?

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world. (Rev. 13:8)​

This is not a good translation, even though I like the thought! The Greek clause "from the creation of the world" is better connected to "written".

"all whose names have not been written from the creation of the world in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain."

 

[Tree of Life]

Three Biblical facts:
God had predestined Jesus to die.
God does not ordain sin.
God knows the future.

Unless you disagree with my 3 biblical facts ^

God does ordain sin. He ordained that Jesus would be murdered.

 

[straykat]

People should BEHAVE, at the very least, as if free will is real. Regardless of what they believe about predestination. Trying to do anything else is trying to understand the vastness of eternity and the mind of God..which is not our place for now. Our place is to do something edifying and to bring people to Christ. The idea that you should even contemplate election or predicting anything is ridiculous. We're not God.. and this kind of doctrine shouldn't be so much in the forefront of things. It's just a distraction.

 

[Call me Nic]

I think it's paradoxical in a way.

Think of the elect as true believers. We believe in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. We demonstrate our election to others through our works which demonstrate Christ in us.

Okay, so then why tie it up in logical knots when the Lord tells us blatantly to choose who to serve? (Joshua 24:15, Deuteronomy 30:19).

He's given us the choice to choose whether to believe in Christ or not.

 

[mark kennedy]

The Bible teaches that God does ordain our sin to his own just and holy ends. I've already referenced some passages to this end. But just thinking about the cross of Christ is enough.

Of course I got that part.

God ordained that Jesus would be murdered. To murder Jesus was a sin. God ordained this sinful, free act of men to his own just and holy ends.

Jesus said before the crucifixion, one of you is a devil. He knew Judas was a child of perdition and was simply allowing him to prove it. God doesn't want that, he hates that. Jesus washed this man's feet and he got up, went out and betrayed him. That's how God reveals sin, he brings the light into the room and exposes it. Not to condone it, but to condemn it. He will do that to believers as well, first he will show you your sin and then give you a choice to chose life or death. We all get the same choice with eternity hanging in the balance. Chose the righteousness of God in Christ or perdition, once you are given this understanding it has to be one or the other, a time of decision is inescapable.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

God does ordain sin. He ordained that Jesus would be murdered.

I believe that God did not ordain sin. I also believe that God did not 'did not ordain' sin. It's a mystery to me. To attempt to dissect God's divine will is to come to an errant conclusion because such things are incomprehensible by the human mind.

 

[straykat]

On the subject of predestination, what does it mean for the Lamb to be 'slain from the creation of the world'?

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world. (Rev. 13:8)​

I have no clue. I wish I did, but I doubt I'll know for now. I'm just glad that the Lamb does exist at all

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

Okay, so then why tie it up in logical knots when the Lord tells us blatantly to choose who to serve? (Joshua 24:15, Deuteronomy 30:19).

He's given us the choice to choose whether to believe in Christ or not.

I differ from many Calvinists in that God foreordained essentially everything and yet our free will choices to believe in Him are all foreordained from the beginning. Weird, huh?

 

[sunlover1]

Of course he doesn't but that won't stop him from, as a act of judgment, turning you over to it.

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. (Romans 1:24-25)​

Would make an interesting thread.
I'm curious about calvinists expola

God does ordain sin. He ordained that Jesus would be murdered.

You're suggesting God tempted a man to sin.
Impossible.

 

[Tree of Life]

You're suggesting God tempted a man to sin.
Impossible.

No. The Bible simply says that the Jews, Pilate, and religious leaders did "whatsoever
your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." God ordained their free sinful actions.

 

[straykat]

The whole point of Satan... rather, the literal meaning of his name is "Accuser". Or adversary. His role has always been in tempting. Not God. Tempting/testing/so he can point fingers. In some traditions, it's because he never wanted God to create humans in the first place. So he'll do anything to drag them down.

The story is FAR lamer if God was pulling the puppet strings even here.

 

[mark kennedy]

I have no clue. I wish I did, but I doubt I'll know for now. I'm just glad that the Lamb does exist at all

Well welcome to the club, it's one of those enigmatic sayings from Scripture. I have a point, before the world was created and life dwelled here, the Son of God made a promise. He would deliver humanity to the Father holy, righteous and without blemish or spot. Once he gave his word, it was as good as done, thus, when shortly after creation Adam and Eve sinned, the cross was inevitable.

At least that's my take on it.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

When we stop seeing God as tied to this universe, its laws, rules, etc.

God is entirely distinct from His creation. He doesn't reside in our realms of time, imagination, or in any theologian's mind. He is beyond. To comprehend the counsel of God would be to die instantaneously because God is infinite and we are not.

 

[Tree of Life]

The whole point of Satan... rather, the literal meaning of his name is "Accuser". Or adversary. His role has always been in tempting. Not God. Tempting/testing/so he can point fingers. In some traditions, it's because he never wanted God to create them in the first place. So he'll do anything to drag them down.

The story is FAR lamer if God was pulling the puppet strings even here.

Please reconcile 1 Chronicles 21:1 and 2 Samuel 24:1.

 

[mark kennedy]

Would make an interesting thread.
I'm curious about calvinists expola

I really don't know what you mean by 'expola', would you care to elaborate?

 

[sunlover1]

No.

No to what?

The Bible simply says that the Jews, Pilate, and religious leaders did "whatsoever
your hand and your plan had predestined to take place."

Indeed.
They "did" what God had planned would take place.

God ordained their free sinful actions.

Impossible.
God does not tempt man to sin.
He does however live outside of time.
He did indeed know they'd do that.
he did ordain Jesus' death.
He does work all things together for good,
for those who are the called, according to
His purposes.

IMO
Don't mean to sound like a know it all.
I only mean IN MY OPINION to all of the above.