DO BELIEVERS HAVE FREEWILL?

[Si_monfaith]

Never understood that. Why would knowing what a person was going to do deny them free will?

Why did God go ahead and create those whom He foreknew would refuse to believe in Jesus?

 

[Peter J Barban]

Why did God go ahead and create those whom He foreknew would refuse to believe in Jesus?

The technical answer for this and every question of why God does what he does is "to gain glory for himself".

Thus God created people destined for hell in order to increase his glory.

 

[Si_monfaith]

The technical answer for this and every question of why God does what he does is "to gain glory for himself".

Thus God created people destined for hell in order to increase his glory.

Increase His glory or reveal His glory through human interaction.

 

[Kenny'sID]

If you know you may answer.

That had nothing to do with my question, but if you'd rather not answer, that's up to you. However, I think you can better expect the scripture you asked for, if you start by giving some biblical basis for your stance.

 

[Si_monfaith]

That had nothing to do with my question, but if you'd rather not answer, that's up to you. However, I think you can better expect the scripture you asked for, if you start by giving some biblical basis for your stance.

My questions seek answers of those who like to answer.

 

[Cross Over the Lake]

I always tried to look at this in the simplest way just for my own sanity. God has given us a free will that He has already seen. That doesn’t take away from our free will. How can I sit here and ask God to be in control of my life, but then be concerned that he does?? Our God IS grace!!

 

[Kenny'sID]

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Yes God made the wicked, God made the good, God made the mechanic, God made the hairdresser and so forth. Or in short, he made people but it was up to them what they wanted to be or God DID make them but he didn't choose for them what they did with their lives. So, in that sense God did not make the hairdresser a hairdresser, he left that up to the individual but a hairdresser is still a person God made.

See, what we need to do is use a bit of common sense and look at all the verses that are being ignored, the ones that thwart unclear scripture such as the one you posted, put them together/up against each other, and a misunderstood scripture may become clear. Right off the top of my head there is John 3:16 that cites, beyond doubt, that "whosoever believeth in him" will have everlasting life.

So, in conclusion, now that we know beyond a doubt John 3:16 teaches a 100% clear fact, you can go back to the verse you posted and easily see, it never was really 100% clear, but just what someone said it meant, or an idea of what you were sure it was saying, or at the very least, less clear than John 3:16. So, now we must look at the unclear scripture again, and this time in light of the fact it does not indicate we don't have free will at all because John 3:16 thwarted that, then see if your scripture can be taken another way, and as you can see in the first paragraph, it can.

Also, it's very important to realize you were likely taught by others what you believe that and other scripture means, and not by the Holy Spirit, something we need to be very careful of when chasing a supposed "Higher Knowledge". Some will cherry pick scripture such as that, ignore all the dozens or more scriptures that thwart their perceived meaning of it, then tie it all together, and stamp it as the truth, when it is by no means the truth. They simply are not gong to dwell on scripture they don't want you to take into consideration, a huge tip off..... there is no room for that type dishonesty in the true Christian world, yet just that fact is very dishonest/deceiving in my book.

 

[Kenny'sID]

My questions seek answers of those who like to answer.

As did mine.

Uh, yes, it's pretty clear to most of us why questions are asked. And as wise as you think that may have sounded, all you are saying is you expect answers while refusing to give any...I wonder why that is?

And yes, I am very much having trust issues right about now.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I'm beginning to wonder just how many people here know what free will is. We need a definition before anyone discusses this issue again. Either we are robots or we have free will. That our will is influenced and controlled and manipulated by our own nature and by outside forces make no difference. God gave Adam free will. God is not responsible for our choices. If He were, He would be complicit in our sin.

So define it. Your statement that we are either robots or have free will still leaves a huge range of definitions. I can say that even robots have real choice, since that is my usual definition of free will, but I don't mean we are therefore robots.

I have come to group people who argue this subject into two kinds of mind. There are those who can't see two individuals being responsible, as though the thief (for eg) had not been raised by thieves, so that if it can be said that he was raised by thieves, those who raised him are the ones to blame, and he is not. Then there are those, who, like me blame the thief for his own thievery, and recommend justice according to his crime, but admit to his upbringing having something to do with it. If they were wrong in bringing him up that way, then that is their crime --not the actual theft, though the individual theft does imply a defining degree to their crime. Nevertheless, while I admit to some guilt on their part, in the thief having committed the thievery, I notice further that those of the first sort, who blame the one or the other-- not both --see little difference between the rights and justice of a human that causes vs the Creator that causes. Such people invariably see God as being subject to "what is", as though there is justice and laws of physics and laws of logic quite separately from God. They make God subordinate to "what is".

I find a huge difference in the blameability of the Creator vs the Created. You say if God is "responsible" for our choices, he would be complicit in our sin. Do you deny he has absolute control? If he does not, does that imply some principle of randomness or chance? Are they supreme over his control, in your wish to justify his causing of effects? Do you go so far as to find it necessary to say such things as "Well, he gave up that bit of control." in order to say he is still sovereign?

Again --if there is nobody (but chance, we might be tempted to say) to blame for the sinner's own sin but the sinner, even though there are myriad causes, such as genetic disposition, environment and other circumstances and so on, why should the fact that the Creator caused those circumstances make the sinner any less to blame?

Meanwhile, admitting that the intention of the One who sets up those circumstances is for good, in the end, and admitting to the fact that he will indeed accomplish that good, to me of itself is justification for his actions-- not that he needed justifying, because we don't have the status by which to judge him --but more than that: God operates on whole different "level" from us. So much so that most believers even consider the Creator of no regard in what they consider the "natural order of things" and even claim that there are neutral facts, neither good nor bad, such as rock or light or laws of physics; they even include within the natural order of things, luck and Free Will.

 

[GaveMeJoy]

Yes God made the wicked, God made the good, God made the mechanic, God made the hairdresser and so forth. Or in short, he made people but it was up to them what they wanted to be or God DID make them but he didn't choose for them what they did with their lives.

See, what we need to do is use a bit of common sense and look at all the verses that are being ignored, the ones that thwart your way of viewing others such as the one you posted, put them together/against each other, and a misunderstood scripture may come clear. Right off the top of my head there is John 3:16 that cites, beyond doubt, that "whosoever believeth in him" will have everlasting life.

So, in conclusion, now that we know beyond a doubt John 3:16 teaches a 100% clear fact, you can go back to the verse you posted and easily see, it never was really 100% clear, but just an idea of what you were sure it was saying or at the very least, less clear than John 3:16. So, now we must look at the unclear scripture again, and this time in light of the fact it does not indicate we don't have free will at all because John 3:16 thwarted that, then see if your scripture can be taken another way, and as you can see in the first paragraph, it can.

Also very important is you need to realize you were likely taught by others what you believe that and other scripture means, and not by the Holy Spirit, something we need to be very careful of when chasing a supposed "Higher Knowledge". Some will cherry pick scripture such as that, ignore all the dozens or more scriptures that thwart their perceived meaning of it, then tie it all together, and stamp it as the truth, when it is by no means the truth. They simply are not gong to dwell on scripture they don't want you to take into consideration, a huge tip off, there is no room for that type dishonesty in the true Christian world, yet just that fact is very dishonest/deceiving in my book.

“Your way of viewing others” I’m confused, I posted bible verses. Do you have a problem with those bible verses?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I Think we need to be careful not to create a false image of a God and then try to force God into that image.
Isn't it odd that the epistles almost never address these issues?

 

[Kenny'sID]

“Your way of viewing others” I’m confused, I posted bible verses. Do you have a problem with those bible verses?

Yes...it's written all over my post, explained step by step even. Did you not see the scripture of yours that I quoted and then commented on?

 

[Kenny'sID]

I Think we need to be careful not to create a false image of a God and then try to force God into that image.
Isn't it odd that the epistles almost never address these issues?

Please, be more clear. Since you didn't direct the post towards anyone or give any details whatsoever, it's nearly impossible to get your point.

 

[BNR32FAN]

If God has exhaustive foreknowledge of all that happens and will happen in our life, do we have freewill?

If God foreknew many would refuse to believe in Jesus, why did He go ahead and create them?

You may post your answers with biblical warrant.

Because God created us with free will in order to separate those who would choose to love Him from those who would reject Him.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Please, be more clear. Since you didn't direct the post towards anyone or give any details whatsoever, it's nearly impossible to get your point.

Perhaps we are proceeding from a false premise. Like God is in control of everything. Perhaps He is not because He does not want to be. Perhaps relinquishing control is what was required to accomplish His goals. Perhaps when He created all things He had to relinquish aspects of His power and sovereignty so these things could exist separate from Him.
Jesus is the exact image of the Father. He emptied Himself of certain aspects of His nature so He could die and be our savior. If He did this, it can only mean that the Father possesses the same willingness and ability to "empty" Himself of certain aspects of His power and ability to accomplish His will. Love did this because power could not.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Perhaps we are proceeding from a false premise. Like God is in control of everything. Perhaps He is not because He does not want to be. Perhaps relinquishing control is what was required to accomplish His goals. Perhaps when He created all things He had to relinquish aspects of His power and sovereignty so these things could exist separate from Him.
Jesus is the exact image of the Father. He emptied Himself of certain aspects of His nature so He could die and be our savior. If He did this, it can only mean that the Father possesses the same willingness and ability to "empty" Himself of certain aspects of His power and ability to accomplish His will. Love did this because power could not.

I agree, God gave us complete free will, because his children would be worthless to him if he didn't.

Would you predestinationers lock your son or daughters away and force them to do/be exactly as you want them to be or would you let them control their lives, or basically have a life?

 

[GaveMeJoy]

I Think we need to be careful not to create a false image of a God and then try to force God into that image.
Isn't it odd that the epistles almost never address these issues?

I agree. I think the odd thing is Christians get so worked up about these types of paradoxical theological discussions which have zero impact on Christian behavior. Waste of time, but We are in this forum Thread so We are obviously asking for it to some degree

 

[Kenny'sID]

I agree. I think the odd thing is Christians get so worked up about these types of paradoxical theological discussions which have zero impact on Christian behavior. Waste of time, but We are in this forum Thread so We are obviously asking for it to some degree

I'm afraid it has plenty of impact to say we are going to heaven no matter what we do. People teach that, next thing we know people are living it up in sin, thinking it doesn't matter because they are heaven bound no matter what, only to get a rude awakening on the big day.

 

[Peter J Barban]

Increase His glory or reveal His glory through human interaction.

It could be either or both. Clearly God wants more glory from us.

Exodus 14:4
4 And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them.o But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord.” So the Israelites did this.

 

[Si_monfaith]

Because God created us with free will in order to separate those who would choose to love Him from those who would reject Him.

Did God foreknow the unbelievers of Jesus would end up in endless hell? If yes, why He created them?