Do atheists believe in objective morality?

[Jane_the_Bane]

Here is a question, isn't human morality, if there is no God, based solely on our own concept of observation and learning lessons about right and wrong based on judging the results of what happens by our actions?

Not solely, else we wouldn't end up with culture-specific taboos or the sort of discrepancies we may detect between diverse moralities.
But yes, the evaluation of positive and negative results does constitute a major part of the equation.

Sociopaths are less likely to prosper, unless they master the art of mimicry.

 

[allhart]

Is there Objective truth in the Bible?

 

[Exiledoomsayer]

Is there Objective truth in the Bible?

There could be.
Kind of like how there could be objective truth in the koran.
The trick is though we do not know. And we certainly have no way currently to varify weither there is any objective truth in there.

Suppose it told you the earth revolves around the sun that could be a objective truth.
The fact that it there are true statements in it does not mean the entire thing is true though.

 

[allhart]

There could be.
Kind of like how there could be objective truth in the koran.
The trick is though we do not know. And we certainly have no way currently to varify weither there is any objective truth in there.

Suppose it told you the earth revolves around the sun that could be a objective truth.
The fact that it there are true statements in it does not mean the entire thing is true though.

Can peoples subjective feelings get in the way of Objective truth? or Absolute truth?

 

[Exiledoomsayer]

Can peoples subjective feelings get in the way of Objective truth? or Absolute truth?

Ill need you to clarify your terms before i can answer.
What is Truth?
What is objective?
What is subjective?
What is absolute?

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Is there Objective truth in the Bible?

Well, many of the people and places named in the books of the Bible existed. We have quantifiable evidence of these (though not of the supernatural events or interpretations often associated with them), so a statement like "Jerusalem existed in 500 BCE" would qualify as objectively true.

"Murder is wrong", on the other hand, is a tautology, as the very term "murder" already contains a negative value judgment. You then need to define what constitutes murder - and what does not. In that estimation, your subjective position does inevitably come into play: one people's war hero is another's war criminal.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Is there Objective truth in the Bible?

No doubt there are factually true statements in the Bible, although the Bible has no monopoly on these, and there may be false statements as well.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[BrianOnEarth]

Actually, this is how many parents raise their children. You let them make mistakes to learn lessons.

I think this analogy is a poor fit to the reality of life on Earth. Substitute getting drunk with tearing other people apart, substitute receiving a black eye with dying slowly and painfully of cancer and you'll be getting closer. What loving parent would stand by and allow this?

Here is a question, isn't human morality, if there is no God, based solely on our own concept of observation and learning lessons about right and wrong based on judging the results of what happens by our actions?

I agree with Jane's comments and I would add that because of natural selection we are born with instincts that are the foundation of our codified morality. Like the instincts to survive and avoid harm and care for our children.

The world would be a very different place if morality was not instinctively shaped. For example, if we did not have a prejudice in favour of our own children we might actually go to some trouble to look after other peoples' destitute children around the world.

In a way we really are fulfilling God's plan even if we are atheists or agnostics because we are using a similar means to make what generally are similar conclusions.

You presume this to be the plan of a god. I see no reason for it to be. It is perfectly explained by natural selection and human invention.

Of course, there are some extremists here who come to very strange conclusions, but generally speaking, the morality of all healthy societies are very similar.

Yes and I would say that is because we are all one big family on one thin branch of the tree of life. If only everyone took this seriously there would be less divisiveness in the world.

 

[allhart]

Well, many of the people and places named in the books of the Bible existed. We have quantifiable evidence of these (though not of the supernatural events or interpretations often associated with them), so a statement like "Jerusalem existed in 500 BCE" would qualify as objectively true.

"Murder is wrong", on the other hand, is a tautology, as the very term "murder" already contains a negative value judgment. You then need to define what constitutes murder - and what does not. In that estimation, your subjective position does inevitably come into play: one people's war hero is another's war criminal.

What is your objection towards the objective truth in the Bible? Not your subjective feelings on it. I guess another way of putting it would be your moral Objections over God's moral objections, then may I ask can you contrast the two? Why...... is God's moral objection so bad or wrong and how do you measure up or rate compared to His morality?

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

What is your objection towards the objective truth in the Bible?

*What* objective truth? I have no beef with the objectively quantifiable data contained in the Bible, nor even with some of the subjective moral judgments, provided that they do not betray the cultural context of the early iron age. (Read: slavery, butchery, jealous kings as role models.)

I guess another way of putting it would be your moral Objections over God's moral objections, then may I ask can you contrast the two?

That, my friend, is a false dilemma. They are not GOD'S moral objections. They are the moral objections of some anonymous authors whose writing is deeply imbedded within their cultural context, as evidenced by the text in question.

Why...... is God's moral objection so bad or wrong and how do you measure up or rate compared to His morality?

It's an evaluation of harm vs. help, of observable or indirect consequences of certain actions, of the sheer practicality of certain rituals and so on and so forth.

 

[BrianOnEarth]

I think the Christian prejudice against homosexuality is the result of instinctive shaping of morals.
According to a recent statistical survey in the UK that I heard online, heterosexuals account for some 98% of the population. So homosexuality is a minority, 2.5 sigma or so preference.
One would expect, based on natural selection, that it would be a minority preference and that most people would be highly sexually attracted to the opposite sex and repelled, sexually, by the same sex. And this is what we find. Like other attributes there is a distribution in the population.
In mainstream Christianity (all Christianity?) the majority instinct that causes repulsion of homosexuality has been codified as an intolerant prejudice and has been given referent power (power of authority) by attributing it to the will of a god.

 

[allhart]

*What* objective truth? I have no beef with the objectively quantifiable data contained in the Bible, nor even with some of the subjective moral judgments, provided that they do not betray the cultural context of the early iron age. (Read: slavery, butchery, jealous kings as role models.)


That, my friend, is a false dilemma. They are not GOD'S moral objections. They are the moral objections of some anonymous authors whose writing is deeply imbedded within their cultural context, as evidenced by the text in question.


It's an evaluation of harm vs. help, of observable or indirect consequences of certain actions, of the sheer practicality of certain rituals and so on and so forth.

If your wrong?

 

[Mling]

If your wrong?

If you are?

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

If your wrong?

If my what?

Your, you're: it's not THAT hard to distinguish between the two, is it? I'm not even a native speaker, yet I cringe every time I see people mangle their own language.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. At least I'm honest, rather than pandering to the biggest (imaginary) stick. And if there really is a deity who is petty enough to obsess about clothing or sex, and narrow-minded enough not to acknowledge honest misunderstandings as something other than a deliberate insult - well, then, I believe that this deity isn't really worth my devotion, anyway. Fallible human beings can do MUCH better than that, you know?

 

[Ayersy]

If your wrong?

Then at least I let my actions speak for me, rather than my misunderstandings.

 

[tanzanos]

If your wrong?

What if YOU are wrong?

 

[BrianOnEarth]

What about group and individual prayer? What are the consequences when a person or group of people pray for divine help towards a worthy cause? Well, there is the potential positive consequence of bringing the cause to the forefront of the minds of those who pray which may or may not cause a change in their actions. There is the potential negative consequence of the praying person feeling they have indirectly taken some action and done some good. A completely self-serving exercise.

Is prayer immoral? Prayer is a very convenient thing to practice. Is it immoral to abdicate responsibility to an intangible deity instead of taking tangible action yourself?

More generally, is it immoral to appease your own conscience by practising a lazy ritual that you have not verified as having any tangible effect?

 

[allhart]

What about group and individual prayer? What are the consequences when a person or group of people pray for divine help towards a worthy cause? Well, there is the potential positive consequence of bringing the cause to the forefront of the minds of those who pray which may or may not cause a change in their actions. There is the potential negative consequence of the praying person feeling they have indirectly taken some action and done some good. A completely self-serving exercise.

Is prayer immoral? Prayer is a very convenient thing to practice. Is it immoral to abdicate responsibility to an intangible deity instead of taking tangible action yourself?

More generally, is it immoral to appease your own conscience by practising a lazy ritual that you have not verified as having any tangible effect?

Would you not pray for your family? God makes Himself.....better yet! How do you measure GOOD? How do you even know what good is? (not by your subjective feelings on the subject either) I ask God all the time to make Himself real to me! I ask Him to show me His glory?

My latest prayers is......I asked Him to show me what it is to live in the Kingdom of Heaven? The "B" attitudes give us a glimpse! Shows us what God values or Valued quality traits in us! (Contrasted to what is considered here on earth) Instead of not trying to do something bad. Replace it or filling up our minds with what I should be living for, like and towards! Looking at it in a different light. Becoming Christ like....... GOOD! God is my mentor and what is so bad about doing right by God which adds up to selflessness! Right by you when considered!

 

[allhart]

If my what?

Your, you're: it's not THAT hard to distinguish between the two, is it? I'm not even a native speaker, yet I cringe every time I see people mangle their own language.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. At least I'm honest, rather than pandering to the biggest (imaginary) stick. And if there really is a deity who is petty enough to obsess about clothing or sex, and narrow-minded enough not to acknowledge honest misunderstandings as something other than a deliberate insult - well, then, I believe that this deity isn't really worth my devotion, anyway. Fallible human beings can do MUCH better than that, you know?

I swap words all the time. Last week in politics I swapped except with accept lol. All I can do is try better next time and go forward from here! Part of it's okie talk or slang, a drawl. Words to how spoken compared to writing even confuses me lol! Also shows me that writing isn't one of my strong points in life, but overtime I will grow stronger, with your patience of course and I'm still learning the rules of writing!

 

[Freodin]

Would you not pray for your family? God makes Himself.....better yet! How do you measure GOOD? How do you even know what good is? (not by your subjective feelings on the subject either) I ask God all the time to make Himself real to me! I ask Him to show me His glory?

My latest prayers is......I asked Him to show me what it is to live in the Kingdom of Heaven? The "B" attitudes give us a glimpse! Shows us what God values or Valued quality traits in us! (Contrasted to what is considered here on earth) Instead of not trying to do something bad. Replace it or filling up our minds with what I should be living for, like and towards! Looking at it in a different light. Becoming Christ like....... GOOD! God is my mentor and what is so bad about doing right by God which adds up to selflessness! Right by you when considered!

You have to consider: whatever you feel, think, fathom, believe... it is always YOU doing it.

Morality - good and bad - can never be anything but subjective.