Do atheists believe in objective morality?

[allhart]

The reality of Evil is it is man made! Which is produced by having the choice to do wrong over right!

Ya'll are placing your subjective feelings over absolute truth and God has an moral objective and we all will be judged accordingly to His moral law, but for those who except the good news in Jesus Christ He offers (LIFE)......If things aren't right and wrong then why is there human rights? Let me take your paycheck or checking account. Eat your lunch for the day? Steal your car? Tap your electricity, Internet, Satellite or become a leach of your life? Let me consummate your marriage of your virgin wife? Clam your child as my own? There are distinctions of right and wrong and ya'll live them out everyday and even if you didn't know there is still a right and wrong, however; knowing you sin, what do you do with it?

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

The reality of Evil is it is man made! Which is produced by having the choice to do wrong over right!

Yes to the first, no to the second. By the time we move in categories of wrong vs. right, we are already well past the point where man-made evil originates.

All abstract concepts are man-made, just like our languages. That doesn't mean that they bear no relation to reality, or even that their relation to reality is utterly random - just that they are man-made, like all other cultural constructs.

And of course, all evil is man-made in the sense that it requires a conscious, deliberate malice - which is why we distinguish between a guy who accidentally dropped a brick on another guy's head and a guy who intentionally grabbed a hammer and bashed the other guy's head in.
A tidal wave killing thousands isn't usually classified as evil; it just is.
The same cannot be said about a man doing the same (unless, of course, your culture regards him as a war hero or freedom fighter, which just goes to show that these categories are not cast in stone, but pretty subjective.)

 

[Eudaimonist]

The reality of Evil is it is man made!

The reality of Good is that it is man made. It is an expression of human nature.

Ya'll are placing your subjective feelings over absolute truth

That would assume that we know "absolute truth", which none of us do. So people -- well-intentioned ones anyway -- are simply doing the best that they can. It involves more than "feelings", however.

If things aren't right and wrong then why is there human rights?

Human rights are man made.

But maybe you mean: why are human rights ethically justified? What makes rights violations undesirable? What makes rights enforcement desirable? Here we must turn to human nature to understand why -- in particular the social requirements for well-being and happiness.

There are distinctions of right and wrong and ya'll live them out everyday and even if you didn't know there is still a right and wrong, however; knowing you sin, what do you do with it?

Do with what? If you are asking, what do we do with the realization that we have erred in our choice of actions, I strive to improve my character, to apologize and possibly provide restitution for any harm done, and generally to accept full responsibility for my action.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[LoooveLikeFire]

There is a lot to answer here and I will do my best to address everything, but I'm unable to give your questions the attention they deserve atm. I'm in my last weeks at uni for the year but will be back soon!

 

[Nathan Poe]

Or does being atheist tend to make their beliefs more subjective since there is no God to say what is right and wrong?

Do Christians believe in an objective morality? because it seems to me that God says a lot of stuff is wrong unless He's the one ordering you to do it.

Fact is, there are only a handful of morally wrong activities in the Bible which God didn't command, condone, or commit.

Seems more arbitrary than absolute to me.

 

[Nathan Poe]

The reality of Evil is it is man made!

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)

Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (Amos 3:6, KJV)

Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? (Lamentations 3:38)

 

[Ayersy]

The reality of Evil is it is man made! Which is produced by having the choice to do wrong over right!

Ya'll are placing your subjective feelings over absolute truth and God has an moral objective and we all will be judged accordingly to His moral law, but for those who except the good news in Jesus Christ He offers (LIFE)......If things aren't right and wrong then why is there human rights? Let me take your paycheck or checking account. Eat your lunch for the day? Steal your car? Tap your electricity, Internet, Satellite or become a leach of your life? Let me consummate your marriage of your virgin wife? Clam your child as my own? There are distinctions of right and wrong and ya'll live them out everyday and even if you didn't know there is still a right and wrong, however; knowing you sin, what do you do with it?

Of course the concepts of good and evil are man-made, just like the concept of morality, and the concept of God.

Why shouldn't you eat my lunch or steal my junk? Well, because it'll make me angry, and I'll punch you in the face for it. Pretty simple.

Don't take other people's junk, and you won't get punched in the face. That's how the law works, just on a larger scale.

There is no real right and wrong, which is why some people can be justify whatever they do, and not consider it wrong in the slightest.

 

[allhart]

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)

Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (Amos 3:6, KJV)

Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? (Lamentations 3:38)

Your perception of God proceeds you and your intent is prior to content, maybe even to say, conscience wise, you're looking for loop poles!!

Isaiah 45:7:

7 I create the light and make the darkness.
I send good times and bad times.
I, the Lord, am the one who does these things.

Good doesn't perform or act out evil, however; everything has a season. He allows our evil deeds for the chance to have genuine love ,therefore; grants us grace for the opportunity to repent......comprehension and accountability! Much that is given much is required, as to say one who sinned much gets much love! It's like if you have children and before bed you tell them you better give me a hug and kiss or you will spank them, but it would be more meaningful if they gave it freely!

 

[allhart]

Of course the concepts of good and evil are man-made, just like the concept of morality, and the concept of God.

Why shouldn't you eat my lunch or steal my junk? Well, because it'll make me angry, and I'll punch you in the face for it. Pretty simple.

Don't take other people's junk, and you won't get punched in the face. That's how the law works, just on a larger scale.

There is no real right and wrong, which is why some people can be justify whatever they do, and not consider it wrong in the slightest.

No, no, no I mean that bad things happen or random things that effect us happen ,but that evil is created by man! The Simplicity of evil without man "IS" it would be meaningless! People have moral objections, but so does God! See why would God allow evil? Evil Points out in the Question that evil can't be defensible or dispensable without person-hood. God or you....Evil is always raised by a person about a person!

How can anyone rationalize evil. Evil is a form of insanity. Can you rationalize with people that are on a acid trip. No, not until they come down to reality! If they can't see their potential for evil. They will tend to rationalize it away! The question needs to be looked at with Origin, meaning, morality and destiny!

James 1:22-25:
22 But don’t just listen to God’s word. You must do what it says. Otherwise, you are only fooling yourselves. 23 For if you listen to the word and don’t obey, it is like glancing at your face in a mirror. 24 You see yourself, walk away, and forget what you look like. 25 But if you look carefully into the perfect law that sets you free, and if you do what it says and don’t forget what you heard, then God will bless you for doing it.

You can also see yourself in relationships with others. Meaning Evil can be seen by you hurting them or by trampling on their dignity!

 

[Nathan Poe]

Your perception of God proceeds you and your intent is prior to content, maybe even to say, conscience wise, you're looking for loop poles!!

I'm going to do you a favor and disregard your malapropisms in that sentence.

Isaiah 45:7:

7 I create the light and make the darkness.
I send good times and bad times.
I, the Lord, am the one who does these things.

That's what I like about Bible shopping -- you can pick the translation that tells it the way you want to hear it.

Good doesn't perform or act out evil, however; everything has a season. He allows our evil deeds for the chance to have genuine love ,therefore; grants us grace for the opportunity to repent......comprehension and accountability!

Accountability to everyone except Himself, it would seem.

 

[allhart]

I'm going to do you a favor and disregard your malapropisms in that sentence.



That's what I like about Bible shopping -- you can pick the translation that tells it the way you want to hear it.



Accountability to everyone except Himself, it would seem.

And I really dis-like how people make God into how they feel about Him....their perceptions of Him, instead actually getting to know who He really is!

What it really boils down to is if people don't strive to become more like Jesus Christ. They will worship their own image. Become their own God, but we tend to become the people we hate! Meaning I hated my mothers character of distasteful attributes and became what I hated.....ate me up from the inside!

 

[Nathan Poe]

And I really dis-like how people make God into how they feel about Him....their perceptions of Him, instead actually getting to know who He really is!

I concur -- I haven't met a fundie yet who didn't make God in their own image.

 

[BrianOnEarth]

And I really dis-like how people make God into how they feel about Him....their perceptions of Him, instead actually getting to know who He really is!

What it really boils down to is if people don't strive to become more like Jesus Christ. They will worship their own image. Become their own God, but we tend to become the people we hate! Meaning I hated my mothers character of distasteful attributes and became what I hated.....ate me up from the inside!

That's all very well but who do YOU think he really is? Evidence is that there are many, diverse opinions about who he really is. If you think you are more right than others then that is a little arrogant, isn't it? The best we can say is that either there are many different gods or that it is not possible to know who he really is. I think the latter is right because god is not any of these opinions but is an imaginary rationalization that serves an emotional aspiration.

We all inherit characteristics and prejudices from our parents. We don't have much choice in the matter. Our parent's survived and reproduced, by definition, so their's is a successful role model in natural selection terms. I think god plays the role of a super-parent with a certain set of optimal behavioural ideals that are intended to over-ride those of our parents. I suppose in many cases the god ideals are better but not always. The trouble is that the bible is 2000 years out of date and it is stuck there because it has been declared divine and is therefore impervious to contemporary adjustment. Far better now, I think, to demote this sacred cow and capture optimum behavioural ideals in democratically driven guidelines. Our ideals need to keep pace with our knowledge of the world and of ourselves, and, most importantly, we need to feel we own them and have responsibility for them. If that makes us gods then that is fine by me.

 

[Ayersy]

No, no, no I mean that bad things happen or random things that effect us happen ,but that evil is created by man! The Simplicity of evil without man "IS" it would be meaningless! People have moral objections, but so does God! See why would God allow evil? Evil Points out in the Question that evil can't be defensible or dispensable without person-hood. God or you....Evil is always raised by a person about a person!

How can anyone rationalize evil. Evil is a form of insanity. Can you rationalize with people that are on a acid trip. No, not until they come down to reality! If they can't see their potential for evil. They will tend to rationalize it away! The question needs to be looked at with Origin, meaning, morality and destiny!

James 1:22-25:
22 But don’t just listen to God’s word. You must do what it says. Otherwise, you are only fooling yourselves. 23 For if you listen to the word and don’t obey, it is like glancing at your face in a mirror. 24 You see yourself, walk away, and forget what you look like. 25 But if you look carefully into the perfect law that sets you free, and if you do what it says and don’t forget what you heard, then God will bless you for doing it.

You can also see yourself in relationships with others. Meaning Evil can be seen by you hurting them or by trampling on their dignity!

Depends on your definition of "evil", really, doesn't it?

"Bad" things happen all the time without the input of humans, by the way. Natural disasters kill thousands, and they have nothing to do with people. They are bad for human kind, but not inherently bad, but as they kill people we care about, we perceive them as bad. Death hurts us, so we think of it as bad, even if it's just another part of life, just like birth. Death isn't bad.

In the end, it still comes back down to your definition of evil. What you consider evil might not be considered evil by another, this is fact. Neither of you are right, so there is no real "evil". Get it?

Quoting scripture means nothing to me. What some guys wrote thousands of years ago is pretty irrelevant today. Even the morality in the Bible is pretty worthless. Of the 10 commandments, only 2 are really worth paying attention to, and I'm fairly certain people had figured out that killing each other and taking each others stuff was detrimental to society before the Bible was about, otherwise we wouldn't have survived long enough to be able to write it.

 

[allhart]

Depends on your definition of "evil", really, doesn't it?

"Bad" things happen all the time without the input of humans, by the way. Natural disasters kill thousands, and they have nothing to do with people. They are bad for human kind, but not inherently bad, but as they kill people we care about, we perceive them as bad. Death hurts us, so we think of it as bad, even if it's just another part of life, just like birth. Death isn't bad.

In the end, it still comes back down to your definition of evil. What you consider evil might not be considered evil by another, this is fact. Neither of you are right, so there is no real "evil". Get it?

Quoting scripture means nothing to me. What some guys wrote thousands of years ago is pretty irrelevant today. Even the morality in the Bible is pretty worthless. Of the 10 commandments, only 2 are really worth paying attention to, and I'm fairly certain people had figured out that killing each other and taking each others stuff was detrimental to society before the Bible was about, otherwise we wouldn't have survived long enough to be able to write it.

"Bad" things happen all the time without the input of humans......by who's definition? There would be just random events or movements. Without people onto people there wouldn't be a definition of evil, so evil is man, man made! Moral objections and as I asked in another thread " If you could do something wrong that would benefit yourself and you knew that no one would ever know about, would you do it"? If you wouldn't, why not? If there is no God, why be moral when it would benefit you personally to be immoral?

 

[Ayersy]

"Bad" things happen all the time without the input of humans......by who's definition? There would be just random events or movements. Without people onto people there wouldn't be a definition of evil, so evil is man, man made! Moral objections and as I asked in another thread " If you could do something wrong that would benefit yourself and you knew that no one would ever know about, would you do it"? If you wouldn't, why not? If there is no God, why be moral when it would benefit you personally to be immoral?

As a social species, we have evolved to work alongside each other, in order to benefit the species as a whole.

If I knew I wouldn't get caught, I'd be very tempted to do it, but I would still feel guilty, because my benefit would still be harming someone else. Personally, my conscience is pretty good at making me feel pretty crappy, and I'm far too honest to be able to rationalize it away as something which wasn't detrimental to somebody else. Though I might benefit in one way, the guilt would probably make me suffer emotionally. It's something we humans have evolved, so that we aren't constantly fighting with each other, instead of working together to improve life for one another.

So, to put it simply. I wouldn't do something for myself at the expense of somebody else, simply because I don't want to feel guilty. It's in my own interest, as well as theirs.

Other people, though, don't suffer from this problem. Big corporate bankers, for instance.

 

[Respectful_Atheist]

I'm relevant to a conversation!

Anyway, Atheists are just like any other human, they just tend to not believe in the biblical version of objective morality.

Some may believe in subjective morality, but we are just as able to believe in either of these as any believer in a higher power.

The Bible, in a very general meaning, does 2 things:

1) Give humans a philosophical version of objective morality
2) Give humans an interpretation of where we came from

As far as the former goes... there are plenty of philosophical versions of morality (Ethical Egoism, Categorical Imperitive, Utilitarianism, etc.) ... Most of these are in fact similar (or close) to the Bible.

Conclusion: Christianity is a version of Objective Morality, but only one of many. It was one of our first attempts at morality. Generally, however, it is up to the individual, Christian or not, to determine what they believe.

 

[allhart]

As a social species, we have evolved to work alongside each other, in order to benefit the species as a whole.

If I knew I wouldn't get caught, I'd be very tempted to do it, but I would still feel guilty, because my benefit would still be harming someone else. Personally, my conscience is pretty good at making me feel pretty crappy, and I'm far too honest to be able to rationalize it away as something which wasn't detrimental to somebody else. Though I might benefit in one way, the guilt would probably make me suffer emotionally. It's something we humans have evolved, so that we aren't constantly fighting with each other, instead of working together to improve life for one another.

So, to put it simply. I wouldn't do something for myself at the expense of somebody else, simply because I don't want to feel guilty. It's in my own interest, as well as theirs.

Other people, though, don't suffer from this problem. Big corporate bankers, for instance.

where does the guilty barometer come from? Instinctively, nothing comes from nothing!

 

[allhart]

I'm relevant to a conversation!

Anyway, Atheists are just like any other human, they just tend to not believe in the biblical version of objective morality.

Some may believe in subjective morality, but we are just as able to believe in either of these as any believer in a higher power.

The Bible, in a very general meaning, does 2 things:

1) Give humans a philosophical version of objective morality
2) Give humans an interpretation of where we came from

As far as the former goes... there are plenty of philosophical versions of morality (Ethical Egoism, Categorical Imperitive, Utilitarianism, etc.) ... Most of these are in fact similar (or close) to the Bible.

Conclusion: Christianity is a version of Objective Morality, but only one of many. It was one of our first attempts at morality. Generally, however, it is up to the individual, Christian or not, to determine what they believe.

And people of insanity can believe, but it doesn't make it true! Evil is a form of insanity and no one sees themselves as evil, not even Hitler! Periodical evidence of God and all legitimate questions are based on Origin, meaning, morality and destiny. Which is coupled by faith. Furthermore two answers can't be correct at the same time! God has the high ground don't ya'think? First of all He designed us and the rules and is the author on the moral law! Intent is prior content, but some folks look for loop poles! See nothing comes from nothing, even the origin of morality!

 

[Respectful_Atheist]

And people of insanity can believe, but it doesn't make it true! Evil is a form of insanity and no one sees themselves as evil, not even Hitler! Periodical evidence of God and all legitimate questions are based on Origin, meaning, morality and destiny. Which is coupled by faith. Furthermore two answers can't be correct at the same time! God has the high ground don't ya'think? First of all He designed us and the rules and is the author on the moral law! Intent is prior content, but some folks look for loop poles! See nothing comes from nothing, even the origin of morality!

Your reply made me think of something I never have before. If God does exist, what makes what he says right? Perhaps that is where some Christians have developed 'fear' of God. If a parent forces their child to do something, it does not guarantee that it is moral. I suppose, however, that Christians see God as all knowing, but it is interesting to think about.

Anyway... under evolutionary study (perhaps starting a whole different conversation), it recognizes the development of the brain. Recently it has been proven that treating others with kindness naturally makes us feel good, and treating others with disrespect has the opposite effect. Indeed this feeling we have comes from chemicals in the brain. Similar to love.

Certainly there are the exceptions, which can be explained away by mental diseases. One who lacks these chemicals can often ignore our common moral law. Perhaps, however, when one is driven to murder (someone who is not mentally impaired), he experiences an activity more relevant to him (at the time) that makes that good feeling look like dust in the wind. This would be known as rage, and I'm sure when you expirience this, other things just don't seem as important. Perhaps even following your Lord's commandments (sin).

I think we can all agree on that...

This leaves me wondering a few things:

1) Why would God make rage more persuasive to my actions than morality?
2) Why would God make mentally impaired people who are incapable of following him?
3) If God did not exist, wouldn't a society construct a system of things that ought to be done verses things that ought not be done... Even if that system is polar opposite to ours?
-------(If true, it would invalidate your argument on the basis of you recognizing a human established trait and deeming it God's creation)

Now, to address your concern that us not being able to construct a conclusive morality.

To a point, I agree that we can not construct conclusive morality. Even Christians are guilty of being unsure what is right and wrong. (Witch Hunts, Slavery, Mass Murder of Men, Women, and Children, and Rape are all things mentioned in the Old Testament as morally permissible). Thankfully we have moved past that, but it does confirm your suspicion that what is right and wrong is a very gray area.

Conclusion: No one... and I mean no one has a clear understanding of what is moral and what is not. The aforementioned philosophical concepts have tried to make it more clear, but have in no way been able to clearly label anything.