Do atheists believe in objective morality?

[BrianOnEarth]

where does the guilty barometer come from? Instinctively, nothing comes from nothing!

Instinct.
You know where that comes from, right?

 

[BrianOnEarth]

And people of insanity can believe, but it doesn't make it true! Evil is a form of insanity and no one sees themselves as evil, not even Hitler! Periodical evidence of God and all legitimate questions are based on Origin, meaning, morality and destiny. Which is coupled by faith. Furthermore two answers can't be correct at the same time!

I don't understand.

God has the high ground don't ya'think? First of all He designed us and the rules and is the author on the moral law! Intent is prior content, but some folks look for loop poles! See nothing comes from nothing, even the origin of morality!

I just do not understand how you can love a god who created and designed everything. You mention authoring the "moral law" (which isn't universal BTW) which I presume you laud, but you gloss over the premiss that he designed our behavioural processes too. Look at our behaviours! Look at the ruthlessness of nature. Look at how God designed us to be capable of cruelty and cause suffering to innocents and then does nothing about it. If a human had done this...made a personal zoo and designed animals to compete inside it for scarce resources and cause suffering and death to one another, we would demand this person be arrested and locked away. This person would be considered sadistic and be called "evil" by someone like you. You would never call such a person "loving". Fortunately, man has developed education and awareness and rules to mitigate these problems that "God designed into us". So no wonder atheists have no time for God. The hypocrisy of it!

 

[BrianOnEarth]

At least try to be consistent. It is a contradiction to say God is all loving and moral AND has the power to intervene OR knew what he was creating. That is just incoherent and if you believe that then your cognitive faculties are on holiday.

If you said God created the universe (eg: lit the Big Bang) but is unable to take any part in what happened afterwards, then that would be coherent.

If you said God is everything/in everything/is energy or something but is nothing else then that would be coherent.


When Christians attribute all this perfection (a human version that is) to God and then say God is accountable and that God can intervene and is omnipotent and and and, they are being illogical. They are ignoring the reality of human nature. They are ignoring nature in general. And if you say that evil is mental illness then I am inclined to call these folks mentally ill: if one goes through life holding incoherent beliefs and ignoring reality then what should that be called?

The reality is that there is a whole load of denial going on. Denial of the facts of nature. High time to suck it up and re-evaluate what the characteristics of God could be. Time to stop clinging on to emotionally pleasing fictions that are incoherent and time to stop broadcasting them to other people as if you were doing them any favours.

 

[Ayersy]

where does the guilty barometer come from? Instinctively, nothing comes from nothing!

Well, we learn it from our parents, from society, and we make it up ourselves.

There is no built-in morality checkpoint in place in humans. For instance, you might feel guilty about things I might not feel guilty about.

I see nothing wrong with drugs or alcohol, which is why when I use them, I don't feel guilty in the slightest, someone else, however, may get drunk and make a fool of themselves, and feel a little guilty from it.

Other people, can do things which I consider bad (Such as forced female circumcision from religious idiots out in Africa, which results in death and discomfort for many young girls, and a traumatic experience for adult women subjected to it), and feel good about it. So either we all have different "guilty-barometers" or there simply isn't one.

 

[quatona]

where does the guilty barometer come from? Instinctively, nothing comes from nothing!

It comes from the same place gods come from.

 

[allhart]

Your reply made me think of something I never have before. If God does exist, what makes what he says right? Perhaps that is where some Christians have developed 'fear' of God. If a parent forces their child to do something, it does not guarantee that it is moral. I suppose, however, that Christians see God as all knowing, but it is interesting to think about.

Anyway... under evolutionary study (perhaps starting a whole different conversation), it recognizes the development of the brain. Recently it has been proven that treating others with kindness naturally makes us feel good, and treating others with disrespect has the opposite effect. Indeed this feeling we have comes from chemicals in the brain. Similar to love.

Certainly there are the exceptions, which can be explained away by mental diseases. One who lacks these chemicals can often ignore our common moral law. Perhaps, however, when one is driven to murder (someone who is not mentally impaired), he experiences an activity more relevant to him (at the time) that makes that good feeling look like dust in the wind. This would be known as rage, and I'm sure when you expirience this, other things just don't seem as important. Perhaps even following your Lord's commandments (sin).

I think we can all agree on that...

This leaves me wondering a few things:

1) Why would God make rage more persuasive to my actions than morality?
2) Why would God make mentally impaired people who are incapable of following him?
3) If God did not exist, wouldn't a society construct a system of things that ought to be done verses things that ought not be done... Even if that system is polar opposite to ours?
-------(If true, it would invalidate your argument on the basis of you recognizing a human established trait and deeming it God's creation)

Now, to address your concern that us not being able to construct a conclusive morality.

To a point, I agree that we can not construct conclusive morality. Even Christians are guilty of being unsure what is right and wrong. (Witch Hunts, Slavery, Mass Murder of Men, Women, and Children, and Rape are all things mentioned in the Old Testament as morally permissible). Thankfully we have moved past that, but it does confirm your suspicion that what is right and wrong is a very gray area.

Conclusion: No one... and I mean no one has a clear understanding of what is moral and what is not. The aforementioned philosophical concepts have tried to make it more clear, but have in no way been able to clearly label anything.

Look, it isn't whom we assume God "is", It is who He says He is and what the evidence points to! Like being away from the city in the wilderness in the dark. You would look to the North star for your baring and direction! God is "TRUTH" and is in essence good "LOVE", the light at the end of the tunnel!
As for science, Science it is after the fact and not behind it all! People know of the effects , but can't explain the cause. Nothing comes from nothing! See in the big bang theory atheist have to first assume space, time and matter (where does it come from?), furthermore to the reality of morality. How did conscientiousness come from matter? Life is way to complex to just come from nothing, even chemicals/proteins can't in a lab with intellect minds just jumps start. Not one bioengineering life form under constant human watch can come from nothing! Now multiply that for every living creature to even say anti-matter to matter! The human body has cells that live independently but in community that are so complex. Our most complex mind computer can't store that much information! All things coexist for life to exist, but one doesn't depend onto the other? What sustains life. Energy? Man can't sustain diffident resources from nothing! Have people lost the wonder of life

See this has nothing to do with intelligence or intellect. Look at what Einstein did for us and He couldn't grasp the mysteries of God or known all the knowledge from the start of life to our very end and He believed in God!

 

[BrianOnEarth]

Look, it isn't whom we assume God "is", It is who He says He is and what the evidence points to! Like being away from the city in the wilderness in the dark. You would look to the North star for your baring and direction! God is "TRUTH" and is in essence good "LOVE", the light at the end of the tunnel!
As for science, Science it is after the fact and not behind it all! People know of the effects , but can't explain the cause. Nothing comes from nothing! See in the big bang theory atheist have to first assume space, time and matter (where does it come from?), furthermore to the reality of morality. How did conscientiousness come from matter? Life is way to complex to just come from nothing, even chemicals/proteins can't in a lab with intellect minds just jumps start. Not one bioengineering life form under constant human watch can come from nothing! Now multiply that for every living creature to even say anti-matter to matter! The human body has cells that live independently but in community that are so complex. Our most complex mind computer can't store that much information! All things coexist for life to exist, but one doesn't depend onto the other? What sustains life. Energy? Man can't sustain diffident resources from nothing! Have people lost the wonder of life

See this has nothing to do with intelligence or intellect. Look at what Einstein did for us and He couldn't grasp the mysteries of God or known all the knowledge from the start of life to our very end and He believed in God!

That's all very righteous of you and I'm sure you feel better for having publicly praised your emotional icon but you are being very arrogant here by presuming that because you don't understand how life came to be by natural mechanisms that no one can understand it.
You are also being bigoted by implying that one has to believe in a super-being in order to enjoy the wonder of life.
And you are trying to use referent power by name-dropping Einstein and associating him with your personal God. For a start, scientists don't give a wet slap about Einstein's, Newton's, Feynman's or Misses Jones philosophical opinions down at the fish shop. Unlike religion, science is not about famous peoples' opinions. Secondly, the way you talk about your God does not match how Einstein referred to God. So don't put words into his mouth.
Now you have got me in a mood!

 

[allhart]

At least try to be consistent. It is a contradiction to say God is all loving and moral AND has the power to intervene OR knew what he was creating. That is just incoherent and if you believe that then your cognitive faculties are on holiday.

If you said God created the universe (eg: lit the Big Bang) but is unable to take any part in what happened afterwards, then that would be coherent.

If you said God is everything/in everything/is energy or something but is nothing else then that would be coherent.


When Christians attribute all this perfection (a human version that is) to God and then say God is accountable and that God can intervene and is omnipotent and and and, they are being illogical. They are ignoring the reality of human nature. They are ignoring nature in general. And if you say that evil is mental illness then I am inclined to call these folks mentally ill: if one goes through life holding incoherent beliefs and ignoring reality then what should that be called?

The reality is that there is a whole load of denial going on. Denial of the facts of nature. High time to suck it up and re-evaluate what the characteristics of God could be. Time to stop clinging on to emotionally pleasing fictions that are incoherent and time to stop broadcasting them to other people as if you were doing them any favours.

I understand you have moral objections, however; lets look at the complexity of raising our Children and contrast it to say your experience and higher thought. How can you explain the complexity of life to children or your moral objections without first allowing them to be who they are? Why is it you think God is evil? Why would God want to be even evil? To us human beings evil is even ill rational? God has and will work out our evil to His end for the good. To have a relationship and our genuine love, but He first has to allow us to freely give it! So in essence allows us to chose wrong over right! Look at our children my man raising up our own children? The difference in forcing them to bend to your will and them wanting to do it because they love you and them wanting your approval/love, but God loves us all unconditional, however; hates our evil, sin and bad choices!

 

[BrianOnEarth]

I understand you have moral objections, however; lets look at the complexity of raising our Children and contrast it to say your experience and higher thought. How can you explain the complexity of life to children or your moral objections without first allowing them to be who they are? Why is it you think God is evil? Why would God want to be even evil? To us human beings evil is even ill rational? God has and will work out our evil to His end for the good. To have a relationship and our genuine love, but He first has to allow us to freely give it! So in essence allows us to chose wrong over right! Look at our children my man raising up our own children? The difference in forcing them to bend to your will and them wanting to do it because they love you and want you to approve, but God loves us all unconditional, however; hates our evil, sin and bad choices!

I think I have a logical objection.
If I were a parent and I had a 2 year old child and I got another child to write on a piece of paper in crayon - "don't play with fire" - and then made sure my child saw the paper. And then I watched as my child went and started sticking his hands into the burning fireplace (a fire I had created myself) and said and did nothing as my child got badly burned, what would you call me. By your divine standards you would have to call me a loving father who is so benevolent in allowing their child freedom to choose right from wrong that it is ok if the child gets injured in the process.

That simply seems illogical to me. I could not equate "love" with such an entity. Nature convinces me that either God does not exist or is cruel or is incompetent. None of these attracts me.

You are able to believe in this God because you deny nature. You invent rationalisations to "get around" the logical incoherence of it. It is like you are so drunk with the notion of a loving God that you are oblivious to everything around you. That's my interpretation anyhow.

 

[allhart]

I think I have a logical objection.
If I were a parent and I had a 2 year old child and I got another child to write on a piece of paper in crayon - "don't play with fire" - and then made sure my child saw the paper. And then I watched as my child went and started sticking his hands into the burning fireplace (a fire I had created myself) and said and did nothing as my child got badly burned, what would you call me. By your divine standards you would have to call me a loving father who is so benevolent in allowing their child freedom to choose right from wrong that it is ok if the child gets injured in the process.

That simply seems illogical to me. I could not equate "love" with such an entity. Nature convinces me that either God does not exist or is cruel or is incompetent. None of these attracts me.

You are able to believe in this God because you deny nature. You invent rationalisations to "get around" the logical incoherence of it. It is like you are so drunk with the notion of a loving God that you are oblivious to everything around you. That's my interpretation anyhow.

How'd you learn what Hot was and how hot is Hot? I remember my baby sister learning what hot was? Mom was ironing and we said don't touch that's hot.......Dude it was on. See wanted to touch that which we said was hot. For like and hour she persisted. Finally she touched it and from then on when we said hot she knew better! I was nine years old and was baffled! Why would she want to do which was bad! God's way are not our ways and you can maybe acknowledge what it is He is saying, but you truly don't understand it until you live it! Then throw in there.....knowing right from wrong and choosing to do wrong any ways, WHY?

Do you think you can come to know God for yourself?

 

[allhart]

That's all very righteous of you and I'm sure you feel better for having publicly praised your emotional icon but you are being very arrogant here by presuming that because you don't understand how life came to be by natural mechanisms that no one can understand it.
You are also being bigoted by implying that one has to believe in a super-being in order to enjoy the wonder of life.
And you are trying to use referent power by name-dropping Einstein and associating him with your personal God. For a start, scientists don't give a wet slap about Einstein's, Newton's, Feynman's or Misses Jones philosophical opinions down at the fish shop. Unlike religion, science is not about famous peoples' opinions. Secondly, the way you talk about your God does not match how Einstein referred to God. So don't put words into his mouth.
Now you have got me in a mood!

Pole opposites. Just in-like freedom and socialism, but through the prism of Heaven and Hell. In Heaven socialism isn't needed and Hell everyone gets it! Some Perspective! Before you go into a library to pick out a book, Intent is prior to content, but just remember this we can make the dead say anything, if we can't come to know there intent!

 

[Nathan Poe]

Pole opposites. Just in-like freedom and socialism, but through the prism of Heaven and Hell. In Heaven socialism isn't needed and Hell everyone gets it! Some Perspective! Before you go into a library to pick out a book, Intent is prior to content, but just remember this we can make the dead say anything, if we can't come to know there intent!

And this is why religion and politics shouldn't mix -- nobody would give a rodent's posterior about "socialism" if it weren't the current conservative buzzword.

Now it's supposedly a salvation issue as well.

Why not just shout "Vote Republican or burn!" and be done with it?

 

[allhart]

And this is why religion and politics shouldn't mix -- nobody would give a rodent's posterior about "socialism" if it weren't the current conservative buzzword.

Now it's supposedly a salvation issue as well.

Why not just shout "Vote Republican or burn!" and be done with it?

This Utopia of redistribution of wealth is without freedom of choice, not allowing us to be charitable or greedy, but who am I to say you know best where i should go, say or do, right? God is a transformation of the heart to which filters to the head, in some perspective about freedom! Which allows for choice otherwise your to bend to the will of evil or good!

 

[SithDoughnut]

Pole opposites. Just in-like freedom and socialism, but through the prism of Heaven and Hell. In Heaven socialism isn't needed and Hell everyone gets it! Some Perspective! Before you go into a library to pick out a book, Intent is prior to content, but just remember this we can make the dead say anything, if we can't come to know there intent!

You make hell sound like a pretty good place.

 

[allhart]

You make hell sound like a pretty good place.

Do you understand the attributes of Hell. First off it ain't a place of community, but of isolation. There's no love in it, brother! As is it is about God! It is true about Hell, it ain't about what "YOU" say and think it is! It is what God said it is about! To be straight and forward....God has the authority over all things, Not you! You ain't God! Except to say your choice! What it boils down to is what he offers....LIFE or you can except this world! Which is death!

 

[knowledgeIsPower]

Do you understand the attributes of Hell. First off it ain't a place of community, but of isolation. There's no love it, brother!

In hell's defence it is going to be packed to the rafters with lesbians... it doesn't sound all bad.

 

[allhart]

In hell's defence it is going to be packed to the rafters with lesbians... it doesn't sound all bad.

Personal Isolation

 

[SithDoughnut]

Do you understand the attributes of Hell. First off it ain't a place of community, but of isolation. There's no love in it, brother! As is it is about God! It is true about Hell, it ain't about what "YOU" say and think it is! It is what God said it is about! To be straight and forward....God has the authority over all things, Not you! You ain't God! Except to say your choice! What it boils down to is what he offers....LIFE or you can except this world! Which is death!

Yeah, but you've been brainwashed by God's propaganda. Of course he'd say hell is bad, he wants you on his side to help him win. It's a war out there, you know.

Also, where in the Bible does it say that hell is isolation?

 

[allhart]

Yeah, but you've been brainwashed by God's propaganda. Of course he'd say hell is bad, he wants you on his side to help him win. It's a war out there, you know.

Also, where in the Bible does it say that hell is isolation?

Well at least you know what your up against in the offer over your two choices. I'll stick it out for heaven!

 

[Ayersy]

Do you understand the attributes of Hell. First off it ain't a place of community, but of isolation. There's no love in it, brother! As is it is about God! It is true about Hell, it ain't about what "YOU" say and think it is! It is what God said it is about! To be straight and forward....God has the authority over all things, Not you! You ain't God! Except to say your choice! What it boils down to is what he offers....LIFE or you can except this world! Which is death!

When some evidence points towards either of them being real, then I'd begin to maybe take it seriously, otherwise, I'll keep on living how I want to live, as opposed to how an outdated book tells me to.